quote:

Originally posted by srtrax:
He sure has a way with the Mexicans...

I didn't know he spoke Spanish.

Dejalo a Duane, es perro viejo en reparar Mexicano armas viejas.

Here you go, 22WRF, see if these meet with your acceptance if not approval. Bottom view of an 1888 Commission Mannlicher and 2 Mausers, no polishing or special selection done, just the first 3 I found in the shop. The Mannlicher is almost ready to final-polish, the Mausers will need a little more shaping & smoothing.

Top view of same 3. On the Mannlicher please note the proximity to the weldment of the serial # and proof marks.

Just for grins & giggles, here's a low wall TG bow on a custom currently in-process.

Inside view of the split, rough-shaped.

Other side; this whole thing will be further shaped and polished.

I don't possess a buffing wheel, everything must be hand-polished so that's why they don't look slick-&-smooth right now. Final hand-polishing will occur just before engraving and metal finishing.

If I was doing this for the public then I'd have a LOT better selection of much higher-quality pics but I expect you can get the general idea. It ain't rocket science but like anything else the work would be better if I had more practice more often.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

Are those stretch marks on that bottom bolt, and, is that a pit I see at the bottom?

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

Why do you allow the heat to spread so far? Don't you use some type of a heat control or heatsink?

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

Why do you allow the heat to spread so far? Don't you use some type of a heat control or heatsink?

That bottom one looks like it was done with a acetylene torch with all that heat spread

What good is 100% penetration if it looks like shit?

It's how it feels that's important.

quote:

Originally posted by srtrax:
I have no problems with Duane's work...(WELD)

He sure has a way with the Mexicans...

I appologize for the threadjack.

Duane what brand trigger did you use and did you have to modify the trigger to get it to fit so symmetrically to the trigger guard bow? Thanks.

What kinda weld should I get for the bolts in my neck?

When I mentioned that in my opinion, Mr. Wiebe's method of welding a bolt handle would look better than one that is welded at the root of the handle thus requiring filing/grinding, I offer JD Steele's example posted on this thread. I see a lot of grinding and file marks on the bolt body that will have to be polished out resulting in some dimensional changes to the bolt body. I also see that getting that 100% weld also results in a helleva lot of heat on the bolt body. Albeit, this can be minimized by using heat sinks and heat control paste.

Well Joe, your photos prove one thing without a doubt that you said previously,

quote:

A)I'm not a professional

Now you might just STFU.

I'll respond to several of you at the same time:

If you think you can do better, why, go ahead and knock yourselves out! Show us some pics of YOUR work! I refer specifically to zlr and Chick Worthing, let's see some examples of something besides your mouths and the products of your checkbooks. Your 'STFU' and 'looks like shit' comments reveal a lotta class, too bad it's all low...let's see some of YOUR unpolished bolt welding!

I've already explained why the bolts aren't polished nicely, apparently at least one of you is illiterate or worse. I thought that the un-prepped surface would show that I wasn't trying to hide anything by a superficial polish job but apparently at least some of you prefer to be distracted by surface appearance rather than interior integrity. Here's one of my nicely-polished bolts but you can't really tell anything about it except that it's polished.


Heat spread on the rear of the bolt is immaterial to the strength as long as the bolt is re-heat-treated, I refer you to Duane's explanation of how he re-heat-treats his cocking cams. This is SOP, as any informed person can see. Actually, any informed person already knows the hazards of using a too-large heat sink that will sometimes serve to actually quench the red-hot welded area, causing hard spots and tiny cracks. The various 'heat sinks' serve mainly as handles for holding the bolt body in the vise or lathe for various operations. A wet rag wrapped around the lugs serves quite well to prevent critical heat spread and if you don't trust that then Brownell's sells a Heat-Stop product that works fairly well. Consultation with REAL welders and metallurgists will confirm these FACTS.

Oxy-acetylene? You mean like on those old prewar Griffin & Howe and Holland & Holland rifles?
Regards, Joe

Let it go Joe, you've proved our point.

And I admit I am the guy who did the bolt handles without the underside tigged; but not anymore. I have one of Duane's bolt handles and will probably use them.

I appologize for the threadjack.

Duane what brand trigger did you use and did you have to modify the trigger to get it to fit so symmetrically to the trigger guard bow? Thanks.

Jim

Sorry guys, I slept last night. Duane just did the welding job on the bolt handle and I'm happy with it.
The bottom metal is Ted Blackburn's as is the trigger and it's a damn nice match. The trigger in the picture looks to be touching and bottoming out on the guard. Probably due to the angle of the picture. There's probably no more than .01 clearance with the rear guard screw snugged up. It works perfect, therefore I'm glad I spent a little extra money going the Blackburn route to get the results that I got.
With the Wiebe bolt handle Blackburn guard and trigger, my intergral octagon barrel it will turn out to be a nice project.

Joe
Please don't take this as a personal attack, but your argument is flawed. First you imply that your position at a nuclear power plant gives you the authority to pass judgment on the welds produced by one of the top rifle builders. You even went so far as to say that it was not a question of being "strong enough", but that his method could not even be considered 'reasonably-good workmanship."

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele: I'm not a REAL pro welder but have done plenty of bolt handles (haven't kept count but certainly w-a-a-a-y more than 50; MIG, TIG, stick and gas) and other things, and have worked around REAL pro welders for decades down at the nukie. We, like most nuke plants, have a Weld Test Shop where the pro welders come to practice and get professional help from our (degreed) Welding Engineers on the more than 50 different welding procedures used in the industry. We, like all nukies, have Non-Destructive Examination facilities with X-ray, magnaflux and sonic capabilities, plus we routinely require that the weld-test 'coupons' be sectioned for visual examination of completed welds. I'm intimately familiar with faulty welds as well as the problems with interior voids left by insufficient beveling and shallow penetration.

Then when you show your own work is it an example of the quality we would see at a nuclear power plant? No, it is a gas weld, complete with pin hole. When someone points this out you offer-up the same argument the you chastizing others for using, "Well, it's good enough because, although oxy-ace is an inferior method, that is the way it was done by top builders long ago and it was good enough then:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele: Oxy-acetylene? You mean like on those old prewar Griffin & Howe and Holland & Holland rifles? Regards, Joe

Joe, do you believe H&H or any of the other top builders are still gas welding their bolt handles? Do you guys use oxy-ace for welding "down at the nukie"? Well why not?

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele: It's not necessarily a question of being 'strong enough'; in my mind it's more a question of at least reasonably-good workmanship as opposed to 'just good enough'.

Sorry Joe, but in this day and age oxy-ace and good workmanship just don't go together. Your argument is full of...., um, "hot air".

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Heat spread on the rear of the bolt is immaterial to the strength as long as the bolt is re-heat-treated, I refer you to Duane's explanation of how he re-heat-treats his cocking cams. This is SOP, as any informed person can see.

You gotta have carbon left to re-heat treat it. You drove all the carbon to the surface. How many bolts have you warped? How much slop do you induce after removing all the tool marks and scale? For someone as critical of others, you don't appear to be able to "walk the talk".

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele: The various 'heat sinks' serve mainly as handles for holding the bolt body in the vise or lathe for various operations.

Down at the Gunkie, we refer to those as mandrels. A 'heat sink' is just that, a "heat sink". They are designed to draw heat away from critical areas.

Jason and Westpac, you 2 have totally ignored the point of my post of my less-than-perfect work. I wasn't trying to showcase my finished product at all, but merely showing 22WRF that I could and had welded bolt handles. Shoulda just ignored him.

Your automatic assumption that the piece of dirt you saw was a pit is understandable because I gotta admit that it DID look like a pit when I looked at the photo later. But guess what? Your statement about removing all the carbon is total BS, as any metallurgist can tell you.

Yes, one of those handles was welded with gas, so what? Again, any metallurgist will tell you that a properly-done gas weld is stronger than an improperly-done weld by any other means. Again, I didn't show the pics in order to get your approval of my method, I showed them to prove that I HAD actually done the work.

Understand, I'm NOT saying that Duane's or anyone else's weld was improperly-done, I'm sure the welds are perfectly adequate for the job. But I AM insisting that 'best' work should include the extra 10 mins it takes for a full-pen weld. Why would anyone NOT do it?

Again, I challenge you to show YOUR work!

And AGAIN I challenge you to give me one single reason why a central void is preferable to a full-pen weld!
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Very good?..well,.On this forum I invited him to the ACGG show and threw in (2) banquet dinners.

If you want to be judged by your peers...buck up, Ol boy!


And Joe...Here in public view, my offer holds for 2011!!

Duane, I appreciate your offer and will gladly accept if I can rustle up an extra few $thou before the next one. There are at least 3 friends I'll want to harass....

But you're mistaken about one thing; the judgement of my peers is indeed important to me, but most of my peers inhabit another forum entirely. The few ACGG guys I know don't usually post here and they've already seen and approved my work anyway. Most of the non-ACGG folks I know aren't very interested in modern bolt rifles, they've graduated to single-shots and doubles and other classics long ago so they don't post here either.

The approval that I REALLY seek - well, it comes from within.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Liles:
For what it's worth I've seen and handled Joe's work. It is very good.

Jerry Liles

Jerry, thanks for the good words but we gotta remember what Lucy said to Charlie Brown: "Don't confuse me with facts! My mind is already made up!"
Regards, Joe

JD Steele, I am glad you have posted your work. Lately this site has been only showing work by professional. It was not always that way. My reason for not doing a full root weld would be the added heat to the bolt body. If the weld area around the outside is strong enough why subject the bolt body to the extra heat. Remember we are not welding sch40 pipe here.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

Understand, I'm NOT saying that Duane's or anyone else's weld was improperly-done , I'm sure the welds are perfectly adequate for the job. But I AM insisting that 'best' work should include the extra 10 mins it takes for a full-pen weld. Why would anyone NOT do it?

Sorry Joe, but that is exactly what you said. And you said it more than once:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
I'm totally amazed.

If you've never seen full penetration then IMO you've never seen it done correctly .
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
It's not necessarily a question of being 'strong enough'; in my mind it's more a question of at least reasonably-good workmanship as opposed to 'just good enough'.

----
Leaving any interior voids is CERTAINLY NOT 'best' quality work IMO. I personally would be ashamed . Kinda like polishing the visible parts of the rifle for blueing but leaving the hidden parts rough, it's just not good workmanship IMO.

Joe, I point this out to help you to understand why several of us jumped on you. You seemed to come to you senses by the end of this thread, but at the beginning you made yourself look like a real ____ .

And no, I won't be posting photos of my work. I'm a hack and my work looks like heck.

This question is for Duane. I gas welded my first two bolt handles and really liked the first one. The second needs more shaping. But, my question: I heated the cocking notch to red and quenched in water, but the bolt lift feels, well, sticky. Like the cocking notch is still soft. I have cycled the action hundreds of times with a little ATF (ala Jack Belk), but the bolt lift still feels sticky. What did I do wrong and how do I fix it?

MKane160

Quenching in water when the carbon content is high can cause microscopic cracking, which could be a problem. SOP when quenching an unknown carbon content is to first quench in air, a la some high-speed steels; if this doesn't result in enough hardness, proceed to quench in oil; if this doesn't yield enough hardness, go to a water quench. Air-hardening steel is quite rare in gun work, so I usually begin with an oil quench and check it after that. If it doesn't harden when quenched in water then it needs some KaseNit or similar.

I always lap my bolt cocking cam surfaces as well as the bolt body's travel, makes the operation MUCH smoother. I remember reading Armory instructions on lapping 1903 Springfield NM rifles, may have been in Hatcher's Notebook or similar. Anyway, the first NM 1903 I handled was a real eye-opener so far as smoothness was concerned, and I was convinced. Later Ed Shulin at Trinidad showed us the difference in a Mauser action he was working, it too waa a real eye-opener. Brownell's sells the lapping paste; use the garnet and not the other, to prevent embedding of the abrasive. I suggest beginning with 800 grit (unless extremely rough) and progressing gradually to 1200 or even 1800 although so far I've personally gone no further than 1200. I also suggest using a lighter-tension mainspring during the lapping process, makes things go faster and easier with none of that pesky galling. Keep the lapping compound away from the locking lug surfaces, FAR away. ATF or kerosene is sometimes used to burnish underneath the extractor collar but use the lapping abrasive on the exposed surfaces.

GO SLOW!

Rinse and clean thoroughly between each new grit and afterward; I use Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly-D) grease for lube, just a smear over the entire surface will do it and then wipe off the excess.

When you can lift the bolt handle with your little finger against the pressure of a strong mainspring then you know you're getting closer. Without the trigger installed, the pressure of the mainspring alone should make the bolt handle slam down into the locked position with considerable force and a perceptible thumping noise.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Joe, I point this out to help you to understand why several of us jumped on you. You seemed to come to you senses by the end of this thread, but at the beginning you made yourself look like a real ____ .

And no, I won't be posting photos of my work. I'm a hack and my work looks like heck.

Jason, I appreciate you clarification and apologize for my own lack of clarity. You are certainly entitled to judge my words but remember according to 22WRF only a welder can judge a weld (grin). Let me be more specific:

I'm sure that the welds described here contain no flaws in the weldment itself, I feel relatively sure that the welders are competent enough to achieve a homogeneous merging of the materials in the portion of the bolt that was actually fused.

At the same time I'm also sure that the interior void is NOT a part of 'best quality' work. AAMOF I was specifically told by every single one of my welding instructors (TIG, MIG, SMAW, oxy-acetylene, oxy/LP/butane) that interior voids were to be avoided at all costs unless mandated or specifically permitted by the written description of the welding process itself.

Therefore, in my mind, the partial-pen welds WERE improperly-done if the goal was 'best'; if the goal was 'good enough' then the interior voids are probably OK for strength (in the short run) but certainly nothing to brag about. That's why I was amazed to see high-quality professionals admit so openly to such a practice. An extra 5 mins of prep time and an extra 2 mins of arc time would eliminate the interior void question, so why not just DO it?

Someone has offered heat spread as a viable reason for leaving the void, presumably because of carbon burn-off; I disagree and strongly suggest that you ask this question of a metallurgist who's also familiar with gunsmithing welding; a gunsmith or any other professional who THINKS he's famiiar with metallurgy isn't quite the same thing....I don't figure that folks here will believe my own unsupported opinion so I suggest asking a degreed metallurgist.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Quenching in water when the carbon content is high can cause microscopic cracking, which could be a problem. SOP when quenching an unknown carbon content is to first quench in air, a la some high-speed steels; if this doesn't result in enough hardness, proceed to quench in oil; if this doesn't yield enough hardness, go to a water quench. Air-hardening steel is quite rare in gun work, so I usually begin with an oil quench and check it after that. If it doesn't harden when quenched in water then it needs some KaseNit or similar.

If the cocking notch was hard enough before being exposed to incredibly high and sustained temperatures, and now won't harden without Kasenite, what changed? Joe, what is Kasenite and what does it do? And what exactly is all that scale on that burned bolt your so proud of?

[QUOTE] "And no, I won't be posting photos of my work. I'm a hack and my work looks like heck.
Jason, I appreciate you clarification and apologize for my own lack of clarity. You are certainly entitled to judge my words but remember according to 22WRF only a welder can judge a weld (grin). "[QUOTE]

Joe

Incorrect!

What I said was that there are a lot of folks here on AR, including me, who are not smiths, and therefore it would be helpful if you showed photos of your work so that we could understand what you are talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by J_Zola:
JD Steele, I am glad you have posted your work. Lately this site has been only showing work by professional. It was not always that way. My reason for not doing a full root weld would be the added heat to the bolt body. If the weld area around the outside is strong enough why subject the bolt body to the extra heat. Remember we are not welding sch40 pipe here.

Thanks for the good words! My purpose in posting here is the open exchange of information in order to learn and to inform; not to showcase my own work or brag about my own possessions or to give meaningless compliments with no constructive criticism.

There's an old saying about heat and kitchens.....

Heat is not necessarily a bad thing, that's how the steel gets hard in the first place(VBG). The application of heat in and of itself, even a red heat, is not detrimental to the essential composition of the steel unless other factors intervene. Factors like sudden rise or fall in temp causing warpage or cracking, too high a temp causing carbon burnout/slag or sugaring, uneven heating and/or cooling causing warpage, inclement atmosphere causing oxidation or other corrosion(interior void), heat acting as a catalyst to initiate or accellerate a chemical reaction with another substance in close proximity, etc etc. OTOH a slow even heat-up and slow even cool-down in a non-aggressive atmosphere serves to normalize the steel by relieving interior stresses during the annealing process. Please see my previous post where I recommended asking a metallurgist for more details about this question.

Sch40 pipe ain't too bad; Sch180 is a little different, though(G). When a welder can run a root pass on a horizontal section of 12"-18" pipe, downhill, overhead and uphill WITH NO BACKING RING, then he's a pretty fair country welder. When he can do a mirror weld on instrument tubing and have it pass NDE, he's getting to be mighty durn good IMO. None of these guys, at least none of my acquaintance, would consider leaving an interior void on any of their personal work, their sense of proper craftsmanship is too strong. Different strokes I guess.
Regards, Joe

quote:

the hell with superfulous bullshit

Great answer!

Despite learning to weld, and being certified in G1, G2, G4 and G7 TIG, I am lousy at it so I send my bolt handles to Dam Armstrong, about half a dozen a year to weld for me. I have seen my own work X-Rayed and it looks awful underneath the weld. Knowhow, but zero skill and less talent. I do machine the bolt handles down, sometimes quite a lot in the finish shaping and to be quite honest, I like the idea of a full pen weld since I am machining away a lot of the weld itself. I know it only takes a few extra minuets so why not do it? The last dozen barrels I chambered took over an hour set up time just too get dead nuts,” benchrest” quality despite having half of them who’s life will be spent shooting green label Remington ammo bought at wallyworld. With that mindset, why not spend the extra couple of minuets to get the best possible weld on something as important as the bolt handle?
I typically do not post pictures of my work on here, as Joe found out, it would get picked apart and I get enough of that abuse from the wife.
As for what is Kasenit? It’s magic! Saved my backside many times. It’s a “coating” that drives carbon into steel then is flaked off. In overall usefulness it’s right up there with duct tape and belt dressing.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
I honestly still do not know if I've reached your holy grail of 100% penetration.

All I know is that I'm submitting a warranty claim on about 15 rifles. JD has convinced me I need FULL penetration.

I congratulate all involved in this pissing contest. The topic was ripe for some serious off color jokes and you all stuck to generic insults.

Duane, I too weld all 4 sides with no big bevel on any of them, I just make sure that I achieve full penetration. If your method is the best you can do then I have no problem, go for it.

I regret that you appear to have taken this personally. I've responded to your PMs twice now to say that I respect you both professionally and personally; professionally because the visible quality of your work is obviously very high and personally for your willingness to share your opinions with the rest of us.

I hope you'll take my criticism as nothing personal 'cause I didn't intend any personal offense, but I stand by my words and my opinion of 'best' work. Some here will agree with me and others will agree with you; like I said, just consider it to be evolution in action.

22WRF, I apologize for my mistake about your intent; I was deceived by your apparent tone, other posters' stated opinions of you, and my own opinion of some of your previous posts. Perhaps the unpolished appearance, indeed the actual unfinished state, of my welding has gratified you, I hope so(VBG).

Westpac, you're positively LEAPING to unwarrranted conclusions; please go consult a metallurgist to learn the basics of heat effects upon ferrous metals, 'cause it's painfully obvious that you are painfully ignorant of it, as painfully illustrated by your query about KaseNit and similar products. Perhaps you need to read at least one smithing or metalworking book? Come back when you get educated, we'll talk.

Heat does NOT eliminate all the carbon or even a significant proportion of it unless carried to extremes; how do you think the steel got hard in the first place? How do you think Duane can re-harden it if his localized red heat burnt all the carbon out? You can find the answer by asking most any metallurgist who's at all familiar with smithing, but don't think for one SECOND that more than about 1% of smiths know much about metallurgy OR welding besides how to strike an arc. Martensite, austenite, carbides, granular structure, crystalline structure, actual molecular & grain structure changes brought about by application and removal of the heat but NOT by any significant change in carbon content; how many smiths do you know who really know about these things? OTOH I suspect that most any metallurgist can tell you a LOT about how to weld bolt handles, it's really pretty basic.

Some here will heed my words and others will go the other way, that's fine with me. Please consider this however: I'm not selling any products or services, I have absolutely no financial or professional incentive whatsoever, I'm not advertising or trying to build up my own work, AAMOF I turn down 80% of the commissions offered to me and I do no work at all for the public. I don't claim to have anything more viable to offer to you than an informed opinion and it's worth every cent it cost you, just like all the other opinions here.

Expressing a controversial opinion here on this forum gains me nothing except some small amount of ill-will from some folks and the hopeful expectation that perhaps I've increased other folks' knowledge base. My smithing mentors were kind enough to do it for me and I'm paying the favors forward, hope at least some of you enjoy the fray!
Regards, Joe

quote:

Are those stretch marks on that bottom bolt, and, is that a pit I see at the bottom?

No pit; just a zit.

Try the ignore button. The thread suddenly shortened up by almost a full page. More room for photos on my "C" drive..

quote:

Try the ignore button.

Good idea , thanks for reminding me about it.

Geeze!



.

Getting my 3 inch arm extender and full compliment of reamers tomorrow from my online Proctology correspondence coarse. Joe, the offer still stands. You may actually be of record size.

What makes fluous super?

If it is your idea, it is essential BS.

If it is unsolicited/unwanted/from your boss, it is superfulous.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Earl:
.. I like the idea of a full pen weld,... why not spend the extra couple of minuets to get the best possible weld on something as important as the bolt handle?

Time [10min?] is money, better off spending ones money more cost effectively on an $3k integral feature barrel, twice that of an non integral.
How often do people break off[without aid of tools] properly fitted non integral sights&barrel band ,
to warrant the need of an integral feature barrel..?,especially when such rigs are often carried &protected in the field like a newborn,..

We often praise & strive for integral feature Sq.bridges,bottom metal,barrels, etc.
More folks building an top end rifle would prefer an one piece BM over an welded SunnyHill unit I gather?
When Jd says he more appreciates and prefers to strive for nearer to ideal molecular adhension of an BH, hes accused of being pedantic?
Bitchiness aint exclusive to the catwalk it seems....
For the next mauser I have built I will demand test target and Xray, before final payment.....

Many years ago when i was young, naive and still belived that M98 was the only working action. I did a lot of forging of bolthandels more than 10.000 . most was unaltered military bolts, but quite some was previosly welded.
The only thing that was for sure was that basicaly none of the welded was worth shit, when it came to acceptable quality of the weld. Generaly you could se the problems after 5-10 seconds of heating(ther often was a uneven headspread). Nekst problem showed after the first 1 or 2 strokes from the forginghammer. From atempting fo forge more than 200 different previous welded handels, only 1 or 2 survived my forging attempt. This compared to more than 10.000 unaltered, where none failed.

My personal meaning is that if anyone wants to weld on a bolthandel, on a bolt of unknown steel and unknown previous heattreatment, he better be damed good, and atleast do as J D Steeler advise FULL PEN.

Someone once wrote the 4 basic rules about welding on actions(and bolts)
1 dont do it
2 dont do it
3 never do it
4 only do it if no other options left


This ever song excuse about that i ame sure that it is quite perfect, as i never remember anyone fail. Basicaly has 1 of 2 reasons.
1: Altzheimer
2: werry limited production of parts that only has ben lightly used.


An old trick to obtain a high surface hardnes on almost all types of steel, is to use a oxy/acentylen torch, and heat up the part slowly using a wery fat and almost smoking flame. Keeping the part you want to caseharden covered by the flame during the whole heating process, all the way to the quinching

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I think that one of the best things that could happen would be for some enterprising and intelligent guy to invent a new type of bolt handle for the mauser that used a dovetail and then a very small cover up weld.

Even better, you could get one of the ones that you drill and tap, then bolt on!