Benchrest shooters don't know how to clean rifles.With those low pressures and steelike bullets their barrels don't get dirty.

quote:

Benchrest shooters don't know how to clean rifles.With those low pressures and steelike bullets their barrels don't get dirty

Low pressures usually result in sooty dirty loads, not the cleanest. As for low pressures, I`d bet most of them run as high a psi in their rifles as any hunter does. The bullets bench shooters use from what I`ve seen (I`m NOT a benchrest shooter)are made of the same materials as the ones we use in our hunting rifles.
The higher quality barrels they use are also used by a large number of people that post here so that doesn`t qualify as as the reason they don`t have the fouling problems we others do.

I think their bores are clean because they DO know how to mantain and clean them, both quickly and well.
JMO

Hehehe... I just love the arrogance... there is an implicit assumption that no-one else knows how to clean a rifle, and in addition to that, no-one else cleans any other part(s).

FWIW, being an Oz, I hunt in regions where the temp can get up to 43 degrees celsius, and the dust is like valve grinding paste... I also hunt in snow... (which in case you hadn't noticed, is water)... I also hunt in tropical areas, (read... wet!!).

The topic was about bore cleaning...

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Benchrest shooters don't know how to clean rifles.With those low pressures and steelike bullets their barrels don't get dirty.

Heh, a benchrest shooter and low pressure? That might be the funniest thing i've read that was a serious post.. These guys ALL are "up there"


Wipeout and the foaming bore cleaners..

Well, they won't turn ALL dark bores into bright ones, but they certainly help.

Best stuff i've ever used cleaning a gun.

no such thing as a non-fouling rifle.. just slow fouling... but, and here the cool thing, a slow fouling rifle is that when all the copper is out, you'll need less fouling shots to get it back to where it should be.

i find myself chuckling on the comments on "don't get it on the wood" ... not that it is untrue.. but that it's true with EVERY bore cleaning product. Amonia will eat some poly finishes, destroys linseed (nearly everything does) and will work on the bedding

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Benchrest shooters don't know how to clean rifles.With those low pressures and steelike bullets their barrels don't get dirty.

At least you're providing some cheap entertainment. Please continue on.

I have never posted an unkind remark about the intelligence or knowledge of a poster here on AR, and hope I never feel I have to.

Instead, I will just say that benchrest shooters are notorious for running VERY high pressure loads in their various rounds...for several reasons....they try to "beat" the wind, they like the powder to burn completely (and thus more cleanly & consistently), they often find best accuracy at high pressures...etc. Also, it is safer for them to do so than the average bear, as their chambers are usually a GOOD fit to the brass and vice-versa.

Some of them run high enough pressures that they "toss" their brass after each match....even though by the time it is bought & prepped, that brass may well run $1 each or more, and they may shoot two or three matches a month during the "season".

Their bullets are made by exactly the same process as any other hand-made jacketed lead bullet, just from MUCH more carefully cut dies than most all hunting bullets come out of, with sorted-by-weight cores and jackets, by fellas to whom making superbly accurate bullets has become an art form.

As to anyone who thinks they can outshoot every rifle shooter here on AR, well I have my doubts on that one. As to outshooting every rifle shooter everywhere, perhaps they should go meet Tony Boyer or David Tubb and modestly offer to shoot against them for some substantial cash side-bets. "Mano-a-mano y cabeza-a-cabeza" would resolve all doubts...

In the benchrest Hall of Fame, it takes 10 points to qualify for inclusion. A shooter earns a point by winning the Super Shoot, the IBS Nationals, the NBRSA Nationals, or one of a few other events which are each held every year. The person who has the second most "points" ever earned, has about 30 points garnered over years of shooting competition. Tony Boyer has "about" 100 points.

Anyone who has shot hi-power knows about many time US National Champion David Tubb.

So, I suspect the bit of jollity we have been witnessing here in those regards are just a bit of trolling by a person who is a bit bored after a few months (already...it seems to start in Sept/Oct most years) of the Canadian Winter, and wants to stir the pot....

I sell it and I use it. I find that if I leave it in for something like an overnight period that it really gets the job done quick.
I had a 222 Mag Sako that is akin to my right arm and I thought I had it clean until I used Wipe Out. Now I get white patches in short order instead of scrubbing with a bore brush and some liquid for a zillion strokes,
I am lazy and Wipe Out works for me.
I too had rather shoot than clean.
Each to his own.
If you need some I keep it in stock.

I don’t think anyone on here claimed that Wipe-Out doesn’t work. Personally, I haven’t seen that it works any better than other products or procedures, but it does work.

Some of us (not all, but some) just don’t really see the big “savings†involved in using it. If someone else does, then hoorah for them...use it all you want to.

Hi Rick -

I don't think the stuff is magic. Lots of bore cleaners work fine for me. I use the foaming stuff because it fits my particular schedule and available time. I was just sort of taking the bait of the troller, and replying to his somewhat acerbic comments about no one here knowing how to clean a rifle (except, presumably, him or her)...and their assertion that they can outshoot anyone.

Wipe out used correctly works fine and, applied correctly, so do many other available products. Whatever floats one's boat is the thing for them to use. I don't think you and I have any disagreement at all on that one.

Happy New Year to ya...when's your boy scheduled to rotate home? Do you have an exact date yet?

Maybe it's just my crappy factory barrels, but it seems to me that my accuracy goes to heck on a "clean barrel"

It always takes a lot of shooting to bring them back to what I consider "normal"
I have used USP bore paste to get out the carbon, and Sweets to get out the copper. (and a lot of scrubbing)

Someday when I can afford to re-barrel, maybe I'll be able to run a couple of patches, and have a spanking clean barrel, that stays accurate.

My best luck lately has been CLP or Kroil on a warm barrel, store it that way, then dry patch the heck out of it before I hit the range.

I would like to hear alternate methods, as I try to keep an open mind.

I have never competed in any shooting match but up untill a couple of years ago I could shoot a 1 1/2 inch 200 yd group quickly standing on one leg.Like a shooting ballerina in the nutcracker ballet.

That may be but around here I don't think you have a leg to stand on!..... ........DJ

Here is Ed Shilen’s view on cleaning a rifle bore. I think most people would agree that his opinion might be somewhat valued!

“How clean is clean?
We get this question many times and have a great deal of difficulty helping some customers understand that a rifle barrel does not have to be spotless to shoot great. Many times more harm than good is done in trying to get it that way. Picture a car's fender. If the fender has a small dent in it, then professional application of body putty fills the dent. When painted over, the dent becomes unnoticeable, and the surface of the fender is smooth and consistent. The same thing happens in a rifle barrel on a microscopic level. Removing this small trace of copper puts you right back to square one. The next bullet that crosses that area will, again, leave a small trace of copper. Similar to patching a pothole. All successful benchrest shooters shoot one or more "fouler" shots down the barrel before going to the record target. This is not to warm up the barrel. They are resurfacing it on the inside. Benchrest shooters clean between relays to get the powder fowling out, not the copper. However, since copper usually comes out with the powder, they know that it must be replaced to get "back in the groove". I've had shooters tell me they "cleaned their rifle for 3 hours to get all the copper out of it." Their next statement is almost invariably that they had to shoot 4-5 rounds through it just to get it back to "shooting" again. This tells me that in order for the rifle to shoot well again, they had to replace the copper they worked so diligently to remove. I have a 7x08 Improved that shoots the same 1/2" MOA after 15 minutes of cleaning or 3 hours of scrubbing and de-coppering. Personally, I prefer shooting to cleaning. The gist of this is to set a regular cleaning regimen and stay with it. If the accuracy of the rifle is acceptable with a 15 min. cleaning, why clean longer? I would much rather have people admiring the groups I shot than marveling at how clean my barrel looks on the inside.“

Here's an honest question which I hope someone can answer for me. I feel like I am missing something.

Why do so many strive to get a spotless bore?

I really do not understand as my experience is a clean rifle does not shoot well. A really fouled rifle does not shoot well either.

I have in the past really cleaned my rifle only to find it takes multiple shots to recondition the bore. So I figured why not just clean the bore a little after uses.

So I uses Hoppes after each outing to remove some fouling since it is not the greatest cleaner which seems to me to be the perfect approach to keep the bore in the proper condition.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I have never competed in any shooting match but up untill a couple of years ago I could shoot a 1 1/2 inch 200 yd group quickly standing on one leg.Like a shooting ballerina in the nutcracker ballet.

I hope it's not because this guy could be French?!?!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I have never competed in any shooting match but up untill a couple of years ago I could shoot a 1 1/2 inch 200 yd group quickly standing on one leg.Like a shooting ballerina in the nutcracker ballet.

I think that pretty much says it all. Anyone who has ever shot even a few matches knows that it is one thing to shoot well privately (with or without witnesses) at one's own pace under conditions and timing of one's own choosing. It is quite a different thing to be able to do it on demand, regardless of conditions and time limits prevailing at the match, with the whole world able to watch and cheer or jeer if they want.

The first is kind of like the lucky groups some guys carry around in their wallets. Those groups prove little or nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by unique:
...Why do so many strive to get a spotless bore? ...

Hey Unique, I want a pristine clean and lightly lubed barrel for a couple of reasons.

1. Had to carry Rusting Blue for many years because Stainless rifles did not exist. And even with Stainless, it is possible to get "Pitting" if you happen to hunt in a Humid environment.

In the description that Rick provided from Mr. Shilen, he wants to leave Copper in the barrel to cover rough spots, barrel imperfections and pits.

The problem with having copper in the barrel is it creats a Battery in Humid conditions and thus creates rougher spots, larger barrel imperfections and bigger Pits.

Any time you have two dis-similar metals in close proximity and water gets between them, the Battery action begins. Here you have the barrel steel, a layer of Powder Residue from the Initial Cartridge Blow-By(before the Bullet becomes engraved into the Lands), and the copper. As moisture permeates the Powder Residue, the Battery is created.

2. When I hunt, I want the very First Bullet to enter barrel conditions as similar as possible to the previous Single Shots from a pristine clean, lightly lubed Bore. Consistency for the First Shot.

I've never had a need to fire a 3rd shot at anything "I've" ever taken one or two shots at. Always nice if the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. keep going in the same place for shooting Targets(which I do on occasion), but for my hunting the First Shot is the most critical and I like the Second Shot to be very close by.

So, I develop Hunting Loads with the end Goal being very small, cumulative 1-shot groups from a pristine clean, lightly lubed Bore.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills.

Hote Core knows what he is talking about.

After reading what Shilen said I'll never even think of buying a barrel of trigger from him.He might even recommend shooting a dirty trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
After reading what Shilen said I'll never even think of buying a barrel of trigger from him.He might even recommend shooting a dirty trigger.

Well, you have to consider that Ed Shilen is just a “rookie†and his practical and professional knowledge of rifle barrels isn’t quite as extensive as yours is!

Why don't you read what Krieger says.

I have, and I don’t see any major differences in what either of these knowledgeable barrel makers have to say about cleaning a rifle barrel. Their break-in procedures differ slightly but not much.

I own and use Krieger, Shilen, and Schneider barrels and they all shoot equally well with the same cleaning procedures/products.

If your milage differs then you should stick with it I guess.

Yes, you do earn points at some other events than the Nationals. Not all events, though, just specified "major" events. And, actually, you can earn more than one point at an event, depending on which event, and where you place.

Thanks for the update on the points holders. It has been a couple of years since I actually looked at the list. Looks like Allie has been doing pretty well recently. The last time I looked Allie had about 30 and Tony actually had 90. I knew Tony had gotten up to around 100, but I didn't realize Allie had raised his total by 50% to 45 points. Still means Tony is one Hell of a shooter.

Cleaning stuffups No.7

When my bolt action decided to stop ejecting I reluctantly looked for the cause. Reluctantly because if I don't do something I don't have so much potential to stuff something.

Anyway it was only bits of cleaning rag building up in the mauser type ejector/bolt release. Slowly I learn.

Jal,use a boreguide.

quote:

Originally posted by wtb:
"Alberta"go to http://www.benchrest.com on the home page click on benchrest hall of fame,and read what it states about HOF points.Rest my case!

Sorry, I don't understand your point. I thought I was thanking you for updating my info, not arguing with you. Back when I had last read the HOF points tally, what I posted is the way it was. Now that Tony is over 100 points, it just makes the point better that he is a great shooter.

As to the points earned in "HOF recognized matches, I think I also noted you can earn more than one point depending on which event and where you place. That is what the site you referred me to says, too. It is just that not all matches, not even all BIG matches, also carry HOF points. You can win some big matches and still get no points. There has been a lot of carping about that over the years, but as HOF is a pivately owned "institution", it is up to the owners as to which matches they wish to recognize as being worthy of HOF points. In my original post, rather than list all the specific matches which do carry HOF poins, I just mention some typical ones, such as the Nationals of both organizations...


Still don't know what your concern is...do you not think Tony is a great shot? Or that HOF points are meaningless? Or do you just want to argue...

One last time, thanks for the update.

quote:

Originally posted by hart:
Jal,use a boreguide.

Good advise, but I do. I've got this gunrag 4x2 stuff from Germany which sheds threads easely, and on withdrawal tends to catch on the ejector edge.
If i think of it i'll just hold the bolt stop open as the rag comes past. I'm learning, but slowly.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
leg.Like a shooting ballerina in the nutcracker ballet.

Do you mean you shoot in a Tu Tu ?

Jal, I never pull a patch out through the bore guide. Always drop them off when they exit the muzzle.

JAL,

don't we all shoot while wearing a tu tu?

In regards to the cloth catching on the ejector, I'm with Hart on this one... once the patch has gone down the barrel, it don't come back... another thing, I gave up on using the military fourby years ago - I buy a metre or so of flannel from my local fabric shop, and get heaps and heaps of patches out of that... to me, bore guides are a PITA, and don't really achieve much if you're reasonably careful.

JAL,why do you ask?

quote:

Originally posted by hart:
Jal, I never pull a patch out through the bore guide. Always drop them off when they exit the muzzle.

Another good piece of advice, and jeepers I'm a pain, but I like to get a big piece of rag into the chamber and swerl it around to dry the chamber before fireing, and the only way out is back.
And thanks, no advise is ignored, just takes me a while to mull things over.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
JAL,why do you ask?

Well, if you did wear one, a photo/video would be nice. My friend Nigel was wondering if you had a number in camo.

You have friends with good taste,stick with them.

Not about cleaning bores, but maybe about cleaning up posts, I liked:

quote:

Rick 0311: If the shoe doesn’t fit no one said you had to wear it!

If we'd stop flaming/taking things personally, we'd have to use the icon a lot less...

Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by unique:
...Why do so many strive to get a spotless bore? ...

Hey Unique, I want a pristine clean and lightly lubed barrel for a couple of reasons.

1. Had to carry Rusting Blue for many years because Stainless rifles did not exist. And even with Stainless, it is possible to get "Pitting" if you happen to hunt in a Humid environment.

In the description that Rick provided from Mr. Shilen, he wants to leave Copper in the barrel to cover rough spots, barrel imperfections and pits.

The problem with having copper in the barrel is it creats a Battery in Humid conditions and thus creates rougher spots, larger barrel imperfections and bigger Pits.

Any time you have two dis-similar metals in close proximity and water gets between them, the Battery action begins. Here you have the barrel steel, a layer of Powder Residue from the Initial Cartridge Blow-By(before the Bullet becomes engraved into the Lands), and the copper. As moisture permeates the Powder Residue, the Battery is created.

2. When I hunt, I want the very First Bullet to enter barrel conditions as similar as possible to the previous Single Shots from a pristine clean, lightly lubed Bore. Consistency for the First Shot.

I've never had a need to fire a 3rd shot at anything "I've" ever taken one or two shots at. Always nice if the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. keep going in the same place for shooting Targets(which I do on occasion), but for my hunting the First Shot is the most critical and I like the Second Shot to be very close by.

So, I develop Hunting Loads with the end Goal being very small, cumulative 1-shot groups from a pristine clean, lightly lubed Bore.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills.

Hot Core, I'm very interested in your statement about the battery effect in fouled barrels. When using the Outers Foulout system I have seen the layers of powder fouling and copper fouling. I'm not a scientist and would enjoy finding out more about how this battery effect occurs. Easy reading would be appreciated in any sources you could recommend. Thank you, Greg

Very good article about carbon and copper removal in the new Precision Shooting magazine...accompanied by Hawkeye bore scope photos.

Here are side by side comparisons of the same 15" 6mmBR Virgin Valley Encore barrel. Left side is after approx. 30 rounds and a thorough cleaning with Butch's. Right side shows 15 minutes barrel soak using Break Free Foaming Bore Cleaner ($5.95/can), then two clean patches through the barrel (first one came out blue).

Draw your own conclusions.

Another reason for using paste is to polish the bore prior to shooting.

shootaway, do you make JB Bore paste and Rem Bore Cleaner a regular part of your cleaning routine?

I'd imagine you'd shoot out (or rather clean out in a bad way) your barrels pretty quick.