Fumbler,this is what my experience in shooting mostly medium-large calibers has taught me.I learned by myself how to clean my rifle for best accuracy.Bore paste has a negligible effect on the throat of a chamber compared to a hot load.It's the first inch of a rifle's bore that will play the biggest role in bore maintenance.One hot load will send a magnum to the garbage can.If I don't use a paste and I am not in shape to scrub very agressively my rifles will not shoot the way I want them.I have very high standards.Now that I taught every one here how to properly clean a rifle,they will probably call me an idiot.!

I should have been a gunsmith.

quote:

Originally posted by greatnorth:
...Hot Core, I'm very interested in your statement about the battery effect in fouled barrels. When using the Outers Foulout system I have seen the layers of powder fouling and copper fouling. I'm not a scientist and would enjoy finding out more about how this battery effect occurs. Easy reading would be appreciated in any sources you could recommend. Thank you, Greg

Hey Greg, My background is in Electronic Engineering which took four years to get. Within that time, some of our courses included segments concerning Batteries and how they work.

Maybe you could do a Google on Battery Design or talk to an Electronics Engineer where you work or through a friend. I don't know a book I can recommend that covers it. And I don't believe I remember seeing anything in the Gun Rags about it - until you mentioned the Foul Out System.

I've not used a Foul Out, so it would only seem reasonable you know more about them than I do. That said, I seem to remember something of a "Warning" about not leaving them Plugged-In too long in the Gun Rags a very long time ago. Do you remember any "Warning" in the Owner's Manual about that?

I believe the Foul Out works through Electrolysis which causes the Copper to create an Electrodeposit(Plating) on the Electrode(Steel Rod in the Bore) via the Electrical and Chemical action.

Other than that, I don't have one and for my firearms, they clean easily enough that I don't need one.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Fumbler,this is what my experience in shooting mostly medium-large calibers has taught me.I learned by myself how to clean my rifle for best accuracy.Bore paste has a negligible effect on the throat of a chamber compared to a hot load.It's the first inch of a rifle's bore that will play the biggest role in bore maintenance.One hot load will send a magnum to the garbage can.If I don't use a paste and I am not in shape to scrub very agressively my rifles will not shoot the way I want them.I have very high standards.Now that I taught every one here how to properly clean a rifle,they will probably call me an idiot.!

Agree 1000% with this.

Bore paste cleaners are made with silica type abrasives, which are harder than carbon and copper, but significantly softer than barrel steel (4140 Cro-Mo or 416R SS).

The people who make these formulations usually know what they are doing.

quote:

Originally posted by greatnorth:Hot Core, I'm very interested in your statement about the battery effect in fouled barrels. When using the Outers Foulout system I have seen the layers of powder fouling and copper fouling. I'm not a scientist and would enjoy finding out more about how this battery effect occurs. Easy reading would be appreciated in any sources you could recommend. Thank you, Greg

Google: "electrolysis" and you will find what you need.

The article in PS magazine relates an incident where a guy claiming to know everything about cleaning rifles got the chance to look at the inside of one of his “spotless†bores with a Hawkeye Bore scope...pretty funny results!

quote:

Originally posted by Fumbler:
shootaway, do you make JB Bore paste and Rem Bore Cleaner a regular part of your cleaning routine?

I'd imagine you'd shoot out (or rather clean out in a bad way) your barrels pretty quick.

Hey Fumbler, I've used good old JB Compound for a lot of years in a lot of rifles. Don't remember ever having a problem with it.

Even ran some "Comparison Testing" on a piece of Galvanized Steel with different types of Cleaning Compounds and a Medium Toothbrush. Used the Galvanize because it is "softer" than Barrel Steel and would show any scratching quicker. Cleaned the Toothbrush real well after each Test segment.

The JB Compound seemed to be about as abrasive as "Whitening Toothpaste".

Did not try the Remington Bore Cleaner, so I don't know how it would do.

Do you know something about JB Compound that I don't know? Not a challenge, just curious about your comment on wearing out a barrel.

Barrels are “burned-out†due to hot gases, not from cleaning or friction from the bullets.

You can inflict damage to a bore (mostly the crown and/or breech) through improper cleaning...but to “wear†one out by cleaning would be pretty difficult.

Here's part of what Krieger says about cleaning.

CLEANING
The chemical cleaners may be the best way to clean service rifle barrels that must be cleaned from the muzzle -- i.e. M1 Garand, M14, etc. . .-- because this method avoids all the scrubbing necessary with the abrasive cleaners and the danger of damaging the crown. But again, as long as the rod doesn't touch the crown, abrasive cleaners should be fine.

Abrasive cleaners work very well. They do not damage the bore, they clean all types of fouling (copper powder, lead, plastic), and they have the added advantage of polishing the throat both in "break in" and later on when the throat begins to roughen again from the rounds fired. One national champion we know polishes the throats on his rifles every several hundred rounds or so with diamond paste to extend their accuracy life.

Thanks Hot Core and HP Shooter,
I have tried to convince my igit friends that when you store your firearms in the crawlspace, behind doors and under furniture you're just asking for problems with dust and rust. I went so far as to get the Hawkeye borescope so I KNOW when mine are clean. I know, anal, but clean. Anyway, a little more knowledge won't hurt and maybe I can convince em to scrub em clean for the winters hibernation. Thanks again guys, Greg

I agree with HOT CORE's post. I always try to hunt with a clean bore. I have experience the battery effect that he mentioned. I have a nice pre 64 M70 that had a pristeen bore. I was at the range one winter day with freezing temperatures. I did not leave myself enough time to clean the rifle before I had to go to work that afternoon. I knew if I took the rifle out of the foam case, condensation would form on the cold rifle, so when I got home I dumped the gun case in the house and ran off to work. Since I also had to work the next morning, I could not get to clean the rifle till the next evening.
I have a habit of look into my muzzles with a 10X magnifying glass, so when I took the rifle out of the case I was horrified to see this black stuff oozing out from the edges of the copper fouling. Now when you look into the clean bore of this rifle with a magnifing glass you see nice rows of pits in the grooves where the edges of the copper fouling was. And this was only in a 24 hour period.
So now when I can't clean right away I at least spray some oil into the bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

Do you know something about JB Compound that I don't know? Not a challenge, just curious about your comment on wearing out a barrel.

No, I don't know something that you don't, thats why I asked.

I have used JB Bore paste and Remington Bore Cleaner (the rem stuff seems similar, just in a liquid) but sparingly.

My thinking is just because material X isn't as hard as material Y doesn't mean X can't wear away Y.
Think of water running over the surface of rocks and making them round, or a woodworker using his wooden hand plane so much that there are grooves in the wood from where his fingers grab it.

I've used Rem Bore Cleaner to polish a hardened steel knife blade. If it does that then it's gotta take some steel off of a bore.
I'm not saying yall are wrong (and I do not doubt you get good groups), it just seems to me that if you make it a regular routine you'd speed the barrel wear.

Hey Greg, You are welcome. And it is a darn shame that Hart had to go through that process to discover what "can" happen. You just can't "un-do" a Bore Pit without Re-boring or changing the barrel.

We have found when you come in from hunting in the rain,nothing beats a good thorough cleaning. If supper is waiting, we do take a few minutes with a HIGH Wattage Hair Dryer to Blow-Dry the water out of the crevices, out of the barrel and under the barrel. I feel sure that has saved some rust spots from ever getting a good start.

quote:

Originally posted by Fumbler:
...My thinking is just because material X isn't as hard as material Y doesn't mean X can't wear away Y. Think of water running over the surface of rocks and making them round, or a woodworker using his wooden hand plane so much that there are grooves in the wood from where his fingers grab it...

Hey Fumbler, My compliments on your thought process - excellent!

I do agree with your logical thoughts, but they just don't apply to this situation. As Rick mentioned, the accuracy will be "burned out" before it is "cleaned out". Or that has been what I've seen.

It would be easy for you to duplicate what I did with a toothbrush and a piece of galvanized metal. I always like to prove to myself as much as possible things such as this. And you can too.

I originally set up the tests to check the Abrasiveness of various Screens(what we call Grits) of Garnet Powder. Of the common Abrasives, Garnet is the only true non-embedding Abrasive(or so I was told). And as I approached the Coarser Garnet, I started seeing some minute scratches in the Galvanize.

But since I was doing it, I just grabbed up whatever I had on-hand. Even used some Bon-Ami made into a Paste with Bore Cleaner, which worked fine. Same with Soft-Scrub(non-ammonia kind). And the Dentist had told me "Whitening Toothpaste" was more Abrasive than the regular kind, so I tried some of it too.

But the JB Compound didn't "scratch" the Galvanize at all.

So you're saying that while it is abrasive and will remove metal, the amount it removes is neglegible?

I may start using Rem Bore cleaner more often because it works well for cleaning.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Here is Ed Shilen’s view on cleaning a rifle bore.

SS and a few CM barrels from Shilen are hand lapped.

The barrel quality is the 600 pound gorilla.
Cleaning technique is just the janitor.

quote:

Originally posted by Fumbler:
So you're saying that while it is abrasive and will remove metal, the amount it removes is neglegible?

Hey Fumbler, It is abrasive, otherwise you need a Chemical Action to remove the Copper.

And if you cleaned with it on the Barrel Steel long enough, it would eventually "Polish" some of the steel away.

Most folks check a barrel during the Cleaning and quit when the Copper is gone. Me too. But I try to just remove the Copper and leave as much Moly burnished into the steel as possible.

quote:

I may start using Rem Bore cleaner more often because it works well for cleaning.

I've not "Tested" the Remington Cleaner, so I really can't give you any "first-hand experience" concerning it's use.
---

By the way, I make my Patches out of Paper Shop Towels because they are more Abrasive than Cotton. The Blue ones work fine except you can't see the Blue Copper Residue on them. But you can get White Paper Shop Towels at places like Lowe's and Home Depot.

Best of luck to you.
---

Good example by tnekkcc.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:


Bore paste cleaners are made with silica type abrasives, which are harder than carbon and copper, but significantly softer than barrel steel (4140 Cro-Mo or 416R SS).

That would explain why polishing barrel metal in the lathe shows no scratch marks from JB or Flitz. And I thought it was so fine that my microscope could not see the marks