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How do we estimate “effective energy”? What makes a cartridge adequate for a particular situation? Is it energy (E=Mass X Velocity Squared), Velocity, Bullet Weight, Kinetic Energy (Ke= Mass X Velocity) or perhaps it is a combination of all these things. “Enough has been written about stopping power since the days of black powder to make a large mountain of paper. Unfortunately the ambiguous and often contradictory clams of such theories leave the reader confused.” Jack Lott Okay, talk to me. Michael Greene | ||
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I believe it is all contextual. It all depends on a myriad of variables that can not be measured or output as a formula. What is the bullet construction? What is the game, or target being shot?.....etc. For example, the stopping power of a 223 on a coyote is vastly different than that same load on a hippo. They are the same load, but can not have a specific value associated to it, IMHO. I never use stopping power. I try to match to the game hunted. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Actually KE=(1/2)MV^2 Momentum=MV And as far a stopping power i'd focus on having a large mass with a large meplat. | |||
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How do we estimate “effective energy”? A: I think you first must define what effective energy is. It would have to be calculated on a species to species basis(mass) and by range, bullet type, and shot placement(i.e. brain shot, heart/lung). I would imagine it would consist of a combination of penetration, tissue damage, and energy delivered to target that would result in the timely demise of the target animal. For dangerous game stopping rifle, you would need to add in the ability to knock the animal down. Bullet weight, construction,velocity, and expansion properties would seem to be crucial in determining effective energy(i.e. does it expend most of it's energy in the target or does it pass through?). What makes a cartridge adequate for a particular situation? A: The bullet propelled by this cartridge delivers enough effective energy on-target(at anticipated hunting ranges) to dispatch target beast in a timely manner consistent with humane harvest and/or hunter safety. This is provided the shot is properly placed. | |||
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Txhunter77 When you say large meplat do you mean long Bearing Surface? Like a "Keith Style" bullet is defined as having a long nose with a large meplat? Such bullets with a "large meplat" are said to not be extremely accurate. Or lose accuracy at "range". Am I being over concerned? Thanks Michael Greene | |||
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I have read numerous theories and used various formulas. But I have seen numerous loads perform way better than said formulas say they should. I have also seen loads perform way worse than the formulas say they should. As much as we would like it to be bullet performance is in way an exact science. As far as large meplat bullets forget what has been said try them in your rifle. I have found a lot of rifles chambered in pistol cartridges that shoot the large meplat bullets exceptionally well. Forget what you may have heard about certain loads and bullets. Stop chasing the end all formula on stopping power and energy transfer. You will drive yourself crazy. Try and get as many honest accounts of bullet and load performance and go from there. | |||
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Bobster makes the point that for dangerous game "you would need to add in the ability to knock the animal down". We all know that literally you cannot knock an animal down as any rifle that could do that would knock the shooter down even harder. What is generally observed as a knock down is the instant incapacitation of an animal. In my experience in large animals this is usually brought about through disrupting the brain directly (head shot), disrupting the spinal cord (neck or back shot) or severing the large blood vessels supplying the brain (high chest or shoulder shot). If you look at the heart and lungs of large deer or buffalo, even direct shots through these big organs will not lower the blood pressure quick enough to the brain to drop them on the spot. Most animals will function fairly well with broken legs and shoulders. IMO a dangerous game rifle needs to be able to get a large bullet into one of the vital areas listed above and disrupt either the brain, spinal cord, or the blood vessels supplying the brain. For the very big animals it will need to be a solid to reach these areas and needs momentum not just pure kinetic energy. John Taylor's knock down formula using momentum and the bullet diameter, backed by his and others of his kind, observations in the field comes closest to a ready reckoner of effectiveness of dangerous game firearms. I have posted a clip from an old 8mm movie in the Photo Albums & Videos section (Shot on Buffalo with 404J) which I think shows the instant killing effect of a big bore bullet on a large animal. I took the shot high into the chest with a 400gr solid (MV of 2245fps). The destruction of the blood vessels to the brain and possible shock to the spinal cord caused instant death. I got to shoot quite a few of these buffalo and in all cases went for the high shoulder/chest shot for instant dropping and death of the animal. The low brisket shot (heart/lung) is not the correct one either as although it will eventually lead to the animals death it will not usually be instant with a larger animal. Those big hearts and lungs can still suck in oxygen and pump blood despite considerable damage. | |||
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Why is this on the gunsmithing forum? Jeffe, please bounce this thread. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Penetration deoends on Momentum and sectional density. Momentum is Mass x Velocity. Sectional Density is Mass per bulett cross section. A long heavy bullet will penetrate deeper. When the bullet expands velocity is lost and energy is delivered to the wound. An expanding bullet with high energy causes a larger wound. For an effect it must involve a vital organ of the animal. Enough variables there to keep the argument going for another 100 years. Good luck! | |||
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As a follow up to my mentioning Taylor's knock out values for dangerous game in my earlier post. He did promote his KO values as being a measure of the effectiveness of a large heavy bullet in stopping or turning a charge by hitting or nearly hitting a vital area. In his books Taylor did not reveal his KO value formula as he did not think it important for others to know how he arrived at the values so he never did publish the calculation. I (as I'm sure others have) worked it out easily enough. It is simply the bullet momentum (of sorts) x the diameter. i.e. Taylor KO value = M x V x D Where: M = bullet weight in pounds V = muzzle velocity in feet per second D = bullet diameter in inches NOTE! Taylor ignored the acceleration of gravity used to determine true bullet mass, so in effect he was using just the bullet weight in his calculation of momentum. That's why I call it momentum of sorts above. So for the 450/400NE we have KO = 400gr/7000 x 2150fps x .411" = 50 KO values (the minimum Taylor promoted to stop a DG charge). He was first to admit that one glove did not fit all and that some cartridges did exhibit good killing/stopping characteristics even though their KO value was lower than his minimum i.e. the 375 H&H. He accepted that this was due to higher velocity and more of that shock effect that high velocity can produce. | |||
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It is Momentum (different scale factor). Keith used Momentum, he called it Pounds feet, instead of Foot pounds. Neither mentioned expansion. If you want to start an argument talk about "shock". Good Luck! | |||
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If it killed 100 years ago, it will kill today. | |||
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1. Faster Kills better than Slower. 2. Bigger Kills better than Smaller. 3. Bigger and Faster together Kills the best of all. No arguable Formulas needed. The above is based on first-hand experience. | |||
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True only if the bullet holds up and tracks straight. For the big 5 you are talking 45 cal or greater, 500 gr bullet that will hold up, 2150 fps ( any faster increases the likely hood of bullet problems and slows down follow up shoots). Placement is still the key, I shot a blue wildebeest with a 416 rem mag 350 gr tsx at 300+ yards, it was hit just top of the heart,double lung, it still ran over 200 yards. Same load zebra at 220 it was quartered away took him on the point of the hip it traveled straight to the front shoulder on the off side he still traveled 200 yards. Both shots were one shot kills , with heavy wide blood trails, but were not stooping shots. My wife put a zebra down with out a step at 200 yards with a 30-06 180 gr partion. Shot just over the top of the heart, bullet found in the rib cage. Big game have different rules than deer or elk, The big 5 have even a different set of rules than 500 lbs animals, when it come to a stopping verse a killing rifle. 45cal at 2150 fps ( 5000 foot lbs + bullets with a SD of 300 that will get to the CNS/vitals no mater the angle. (500 grs depending on cal ) JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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Think there might be something wrong with that load?  _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Nothing wrong with the load massive tissue damage to heart and lungs. not a max load but 2400 -2500 fps + 1/2 moa out to 300 yards. Just a tough animal. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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Measuring stopping power in a formula is mental masturbation. Shoot 10 "Whatever Big Game" with the same bullet at the same velocity in the same spot and destroy the same tissue and you will get at least 3 or 4 different reactions, unless you severe the spine or destroy brain tissue. Bullets cannot depart enough force (I think) that is the proper physics term knock an animal over. Animals dropping at shots or seeming knocked of their feet are nerve reactions. Just like when you burn your finger, you yank it back. the falm edid not force it back. Living creatures die when the brain dies. The brain dies because of lack of oxygenated blood or when it is physcially "blown up". Living creatures stop moving when CNS is interupted or the muscles quit receiving oxygenated blood and no longer perform work. Want an instantaneous "stop" interupt the CNS. Want a faster stop destroy more heart lung tissue or destroy more bone the prevents the animal from supporting its own weight. Again, hit 10 animals in the exact same way and destroy the exact same amount of tissue you will get 3 or 4 different reactions. I would rather shoot a cape buffalo through the eyeball with a 257 Roberts then through the heart lungs with a 458 Lott, if I could guarantee 100% shot placement. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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And it sure as hell doesn't hurt to get closer. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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The truth is that its not a matter of what but where. | |||
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Wiki Says ; Muzzle energy is the kinetic energy of a bullet as it is expelled from the muzzle of a firearm. It is often used as a rough indication of the destructive potential of a given firearm or load. The heavier the bullet and the faster it moves, the higher its muzzle energy and the more damage it will do. Ideal combination for true stopping power is 2200 + FPS with a 500 + grain bullet !. Will a cartridge with 1800 FPS and a 325 grain bullet do the same ?. More than likely but now placement may become an issue !. Ask yourselves which you prefer given a choice ; An intruder on PCP is inside your home and is bent on harming you or your family ; .224 55 grain bullet at 3200 FPS or 12 gauge with a Slug or 00 buck !. Nothing beats lifting them off their feet whether it be 2 or 4 legged . Precision shooting isn't always an option while hunting or defending !!!.  | |||
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Doc, That is the point...neither a 223 or a load of double 00 buck or a slug can knock most human beings over based on their energy. To illustrate my point, how many people here shoot steel targets. Can a 12 ga slug knock over a 150 lb steel target? No, it cannot. When something is knocked down that is caused by nervous reaction not the energy of the bullet. I would much prefer the 223 right between the PCP freaks eyes then the 00 buck or slug in his chest. The 223 between his eyes will turn him off like a switch. The slug or the 12 ga may allow him to fight for 5-10 seconds. Now by introudcing the choice of weapon and the ability to shoot accurately under stress, you are no longer simply talking about stopping power. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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The whole "Energy" issue has a lot of variables and many theories. Hence the TKO concept developed by Taylor. I am not a very experienced hunter meaning that despite hunting for around 35 years I have not shot lots of animals. having said that, I had one experience which stands out in my mind. I shot a good black bear in BC in 2007 at a range of 307 yards (last half hour of a 6 day hunt in the fall). The 7mm Mag 160 gr Tsx hit the bear in the lungs and it went down for a few seconds and then it ran across us. I shot again on the run & hit it in the left thigh quartering into the guts. The shot hit the animal with very loud crack and picked it up and threw it in the air in a somersault. It did not go far. The point I am making is that the impact of the TSX on the big thigh bone had a huge energy transfer in very short time. A lead core bullet of same weight and impact velocity would have had the same impact energy but the bullet would have smeared lead on the bone and not transferred as much energy in as short a time. By the same logic, the TSX does not transfer energy quickly in smaller animals if only soft tissue is hit. I find that TSX causes bone splinters while lead core bullets create bone grit. My $0.02 worth. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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nothing shoulder fired, short of a recoiless rifle, can "knock" a whitetail off its feet, though there's TONs of "energy" in alot of rounds. so, its relative, as the taylor index, but that's still misleading. since the topic is stopping, let's classify what stopping power does. a stopping rifle is a big bore with at least .375 rifle at something above 2000fps MV with a bullet of at least .300SD (.280 if its a copper or brass bullet) probably non expanding. that's a total arbitrary, but proven by a century of use. one can't compare a 7rem mag to a 500NE .. other than measuring artifacts based off application of primary facts ... a 500NE, in a typical build, is USELESS at 400 yards and a 7 remmag would splatter its bullet on an elephant skull .. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Actually, the "Formula" for knocking a Deer off it's feet is not that difficult to accomplish. Whether it is Dead when it falls has a lot to do with the Central Nervous System - whether hit on purpose or by accident. Here is what you need, a relatively W-I-D-E opening, quick expansion Bullet at a modest Point-of-Impact Velocity. And, the Deer needs to be very slowly easing along, without being on Full Alert. Depending on the distance, a 44Mag with a 240gr XTP will "Knock them Off-their-Feet" if placed into the On-Side Shoulder just as the Off-Side leg is being lifted. The Bullet expands to double it's normal size or slightly bigger, reaches the off-side hide, pushes the hide out as if an umbrella has been opened beneath it, but dosen't have enough Energy to push that massive front of the Bullet on through - and "Ta-Daaa" the Deer is Knocked over. Have Knocked a good many off their feet with that combination. I would expect the same thing with any W-I-D-E Expanding bullet at a modest Impact Velocity with the same Deer easing-along conditions. A 12ga and 3" 000Buck will flip two at a time. | |||
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 A 12ga and 3" 000Buck will flip two at a time. REALLY? a 44 mag will KNOCK a deer over? if it wasn't painfully obvious enough, here's the icing on the cake of your "many thousands" of deer expereince. a deer falling down when dead isn't KNOCKING them over, and anyone that's shot TWO deer would know this. let's take a deer gun, or a 257 roberts .. and it hits a 150LB deer with 2000 ftlbs of energy and the bullet doesn't exit... does the deer then FLY away? i have PERSONALY seen, at the distance of 20 feet, what happens with a whitetail, all of 120 lbs, takes a 458 watts in the rump, making it a hotcore brainshot, and the 5000ft/lb bullet DOES NOT exit ... the deer balls up and dies, no running... but it aint blown into the next county, no matter what the "math" says ... you've KNOCKED a "good many" (thousand?) deer off their feet? BLAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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a rabbit vs a train - now thats stopping power | |||
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Energy VS Distance is really the factor of stopping power . Within the confines of 20 yd ,I'll choose the 12 gauge slug throwing a 437 grain projectile at 1350 FPS as opposed to .223 55 grain projectile at 3200 FPS . Don't ever kid your self about a slug not being able to knock someone off their feet . In V N I used a 12 gauge pump on more than one occasion for Close Work . It slams the door shut after blowing the recipient back into the room !!!. | |||
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 REALLY? a 12 ga can blow someone backwards, just like in hollywood? no 44 magnum or 12 ga EVER "flippeD" or "knockeD" of "threwbackwards" ANYTHING remotely deer sized. I have personally shot an about 30# chunk of steel, with a 550 express lead bullet .. 7200ft/lb of ME ... at about TEN feet, and the chuck of steel didn't move 3 inches .. 3 railroad plates (the things that hold the cross ties together)weld together .. the bullet expended 100% of its energy, as it turned to DUST .. didn't penetrate the plate. .. and it moved a couple inches .... bump... hit a BOWLING BALL with the same combo, it rolled about 20 inches down hill ... hit a 50# log with a 550 magnum, jacketed bullet (700gr at 2350) .. huge hard piece of salt cedar ... it ATE the 8500ft lb of energy and BARELY bumped .. moved less than an inch ... a 550 magnum is about FIVE times the ME, and the log is about 1/2 the weight of a tiny person/deer ... the log absorbed 100% of the energy .. and the 50# log moved LESS THAN an inch that's about 10 TIMES the energy to weight difference than the 12ga hitting a lightweight person .. and NO effect, and certainly not flying, flipping, knocking, or blowing anything over backwards.. If you like, I'll bring a log to the hoot - n - shoot and you can see for yourself. I'll bring some fried crow, cold of course, for you to have a snack after hitting a log with high powered caliber! opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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It;s bad enought to scan through these posts and laugh but when I sold guns I actually had to stand in front of the yahoos while they told their stories (based on empirical data I was always told) and try to not laugh in their face or tell them to just shut the F**K up, here's your Remington 710 and stay the hell away from me... | |||
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I hope your life insurance is paid up. I would put that under the category of "don't try this at home kids". | |||
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up angle, 60degs ... and it just bumped .... opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Well Well some talk a good game and others play a good game . Then again some of us LIVED beyond the Games !. 12 Gauge Brenneke K.O. Slug, 2-3/4" Shell, 1 oz., 5 Rounds Per Box, 50 Boxes Per Case Non-returnable item. Muzzle velocity: 1600 fps. Velocity at 100 yards: 987 fps. Muzzle energy: 2491 ft/lbs. Energy at 100 yards: 948 ft/lbs. For use in smoothbore and rifled barrels. •One of the least expensive slugs on the market. •Superb accuracy: less then 2” (5 rounds) at 50 yards. •Flat trajectory . •Improved Foster type slug. •Excellent penetration. •Good knockdown power. Uses: Deer sized large game. You get your attorney to sign a release for your life !. I shall then take a 12 gauge W/slug and stand you out at 20 yd ,then do a head shot on you . We'll let all the AR members witness whether you fell backward or forward from the momentum . Are you still Game minded ???. Remember the difference between ignorance and stupidity , ignorance is curable by education !. | |||
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I'm too lazy to do the arithmetic, but there is no way in hell that any shoulder fired projectile can have enough energy to physically move a normal sized person. Stories are great, but the physics just don't work. | |||
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What CAS said!
Yes, doc, stupidity is incurable, as you have just offered to shoot me. If i FELL one way or the other, the hook of your threat, is NOT the statement you made earlier about "blowing the recipient back into the room." here's your sign, pal... what's that patent number again? In other words, your story changes AGAIN, right Doc? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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i agree, some of us do .. your game, however, doesn't hold water, stand up to fact, or examination. In other words, your statement that a 12 ga slug could "blow" someone OUT OF THE ROOM was just a bunch of used stewed prunes, now, wasn't it? Doc - you best course of action is to retire from this discussion, as this point .. its apparent you haven't done the field work .. and rather sad that you keep it up opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Sir Isaac Newton settled this argument 300 years ago. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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The thing you are missing is jeffee " ONLY " takes shots when the firearm is tied to a HUGE Lead Sled.  I'd kind of expected jeffee to respond to my post and exhibit his usual total lack of first-hand experience or knowledge on shooting game - I was right again!  What an idiot! | |||
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Slamming the door was metaphorically speaking blowing the person back into the room WASN'T !. My offer still holds are you game or as usual all mouth and no brain !. I'll even allow you to wear a bullet proof vest and I'll take a chest shot on you . So as to allow yourself to live and realize just how stupid you really are !!!. I've been hit by live fire have you ?. | |||
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still with the threats of shooting me as you disagree with me? so, now, its NOW that the person wasn't blown out of the room , and it didn't really have all that much hollywood on it ... again, called out for overstatements and blowing hard ... And now, for that patent number? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Doc, Simple question: Can you do the math that proves a shoulder fired projectile has enough energy to move a normal sized person? Remember, there is only so much energy in a cartridge. That energy must be used to move the projectile, create heat, overcome friction, displace tissue in the target, etc., etc., etc. The laws of physics are clear, and once that projectile is fired, it can't create more energy. The arithmetic is simple, so prove your point. Without it, you are just telling old wives tales. | |||
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