Cas,
its so simple even i can do it! LOL

impulse = 11.651930047713 kilogram-meter/second

or 25.6881086 LB/Second

Doc, are you shooting HOBBITS?

Here's Dave's ACTUAL shooting test on a 35# slide

a 500 asqaure moved 35# 49.5 inches, on a pretty low friction slide ..
http://www.470mbogo.com/BigBores/BigBores6.html


blowin' em back is decyphered as blowing hard and taossin em back, allegorically

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
a rabbit vs a train - now thats stopping power

Yep, that rabbit is stopped.

As it a bug on a windshield.

(Aside--
I saw a train derailed by a moose--
train was stopped --
by Mother Earth.)

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Actually, the "Formula" for knocking a Deer off it's feet is not that difficult to accomplish. Whether it is Dead when it falls has a lot to do with the Central Nervous System - whether hit on purpose or by accident.

Here is what you need, a relatively W-I-D-E opening, quick expansion Bullet at a modest Point-of-Impact Velocity. And, the Deer needs to be very slowly easing along, without being on Full Alert.

Depending on the distance, a 44Mag with a 240gr XTP will "Knock them Off-their-Feet" if placed into the On-Side Shoulder just as the Off-Side leg is being lifted. The Bullet expands to double it's normal size or slightly bigger, reaches the off-side hide, pushes the hide out as if an umbrella has been opened beneath it, but dosen't have enough Energy to push that massive front of the Bullet on through - and "Ta-Daaa" the Deer is Knocked over.

Have Knocked a good many off their feet with that combination. I would expect the same thing with any W-I-D-E Expanding bullet at a modest Impact Velocity with the same Deer easing-along conditions.

A 12ga and 3" 000Buck will flip two at a time.

Now is that due to "innerd shifting", that widely know phenomenon, or butt shooting???

"innerd shifting"


Technical term?

jeffeosso

I like that one that goes "A Hotsh#t brain shot" when referring to a butt shot deer. Classic.

Sound like doc 224/375 is upset that you don't believe his "Hollywood" performing shotgun loads. When some of these lads get to a certain age the only thing they have left is their opinions and if you question those you are directly questioning their manhood and they respond with their crap. Pitiful

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
"innerd shifting"


Technical term?

For further explanation on this phenomenon I would refer you to my good friend Hotsh#t's previous posts on how important this is in the humane harvesting of his quarry.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
"innerd shifting"


Technical term?

For further explanation on this phenomenon I would refer you to my good friend Hotsh#t's previous posts on how important this is in the humane harvesting of his quarry.

with a 25 acp!

Knock knock....hello....anyone there....???

Any comments on my post about the adult 350 pound+ black bear being lifted up & tossed over in a somersault by a Barnes TSX 160 gr 7mm bullet????

Is that not a case of being knocked off its feet?

The guide couldn't believe his eyes and I just wish I had that on video.

How much kinetic energy does a lighter flame have?

How much kinetic energy does an ice cube have?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Any comments on my post about the adult 350 pound+ black bear being lifted up & tossed over in a somersault by a Barnes TSX 160 gr 7mm bullet????

Is that not a case of being knocked off its feet?

Bullets don't "knock over" 350 pound animals, although the animal's reactions often make it look that way to the human eye.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Knock knock....hello....anyone there....???

Any comments on my post about the adult 350 pound+ black bear being lifted up & tossed over in a somersault by a Barnes TSX 160 gr 7mm bullet????

Is that not a case of being knocked off its feet?

The guide couldn't believe his eyes and I just wish I had that on video.

the animal's reaction to the shot (backflips and leaps) are NOT a function of the bullet ... this are the animal's muscles responding to the pain ..

i assume you shot the animal from a conventional angle -- that is, from the side and slightly above ... because unless you were laying UNDER the bear, "lifted up and tossed over somersault"-ing from a shot from the side (or front.. or from the hotsore angle) would result in a sideways push.

Mike's question about ice cubes and lighters is spot on .. those cause the animal to respond, not due to the energy in item.

If JBrown, CAS, and I agree on something (rare as it is) it must be true ..

Sorry, man, 350# bears are not MOVED, much less, thrown, by a dinky 7 remmag ...

Heck, change the deal a second -- but in the same kind of power range..

shooting steel rams with a rifle ... or shooting speed steel with pistol... or cowboy action shooters.. all hit targets that weigh about 1/10 of muzzle energy ... and they barely knock them over.

bowling pin shooters, with 45ACP, 38 supers, 10mm, and hot 40s ... all over 400ftlb to "make major" ... hitting pins that weigh NO MORE than 3# 10oz ... lets round that up to 4# ..

a force ONE HUNDRED "times" more than the weight of the pin .. (would require a .510 700gr bullet at 4750FPS ... TWO bmg's -- to have the same energy difference as your bear story) .. and the pins move WAY less than 1 foot before falling .. yes, they move further if you hit them with a 460 or other 2000+ftlb canon ... even when hit with a 223, they move a bit ... we are talking HUNDREDS of times more ME than target weight, not less than 15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyWYHmkEf9Y


100:1 "energy" ratio, and it bumps a bowling pin over

ever seen pics of ballistics gel catching bullets? 400ftlb in a 45acp, being caught in 10-12lb of ballistics gel ... and it aint thrown across the room ... have to get an m16 shooting the same block to make it really react .. again, hundreds to 1 ratios

sorry guys, nothing non explosive shoulder fired can make a human, deer, bear, pig, or buffalo be blown backwards ...

unless you are shooting in hollywood .. with blanks

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:


Bullets don't "knock over" 350 pound animals, although the animal's reactions often make it look that way to the human eye.

Well said.

Terry

I have been performing quite a lot of bullet testing with my big bore rifles.

A 470 Nitro at 33 ft will pickup my test box and flip it over twice With all of its 5000 pounds of energy. After all the box full loaded weighs only about 450 pounds.

Seriously, with only 36" of paper to test softs (maybe 300 pounds) I could fire about 12 rounds with the box sliding back about 1/2". This is wood on concrete. The box absorbed over 4000 pounds of energy each shot.

The solids never pushed the box back with a full load of paper.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
1. Faster Kills better than Slower.
2. Bigger Kills better than Smaller.
3. Bigger and Faster together Kills the best of all.

No arguable Formulas needed. The above is based on first-hand experience.

And an accurately placed bullet kills best of all while an improperly placed one can never be replaced by bigger and faster.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:


Bullets don't "knock over" 350 pound animals, although the animal's reactions often make it look that way to the human eye.

Well said.



Terry

Just set a tin can out on a board and shoot at it with your 22. Have the time you hit the can it will move towards you as a result of the bullets impact.

When I was testing safarikid's 600ok shooting the 600 overkill 900 grain woodleigh at a 55 gal drum full of water about 500lbs, the drum standing falls over to the right side but not backwords, I think the main reason it fell over is because the seam blew out and the force of the water going out tipped it over. Bullet went completely through the drum. Then I put a 55 gal drum on end and shot it with the same load bullet did not exit so all energy was obsorbed, the drum did not move an inch, and no mass water evac to cause it to move, I have also shot this load at drums full of sand and they dont move an inch or does the round penetrate all the way through, I dont know the weight of a sand filled 55 gal drum it should not be hard to figure out.

Iam sure a lot of you have seen the vid but here it is if anyone wants to watch again, maybe its not the perfect test because its water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGfu3Rge8Xo

458 lb for the water, 30 for the drum, call it 500 LB..

about 7.353 cu/ft in a 55gallon drum, sand weighs about 80lb a cubic foot

588lb for the sand, 30 for the drum .. call it
620 - 680 (might be slightly wet sand)

hitting it with what, 12,000ftlb of energy?

why, if you believe hollywood, er some posters, it should have FLOWN ...

didn't move huh? must be that thing of momentum ...

Des anyone remember the original question?

quote:

How do we estimate “effective energy”?
AND
What makes a cartridge adequate for a particular situation?

M.Greene

quote:

Originally posted by Michael_Greene:
Des anyone remember the original question?

quote:

How do we estimate “effective energy”?
AND
What makes a cartridge adequate for a particular situation?

M.Greene

Mike,


what's YOUR opinion on the matter?

I just finished reading Jack Lott's article from his book "Big Bore Rifles" (1983 I think).
I am still confused, I also have been reading about Elastic and Inelastic Collisions.
Because animals and people and not SOLID (or bodies with uniform density) the results very.
Also articles on battlefield wounds are interesting as "adrenalin and injury" are also a factor.
I was hoping to have someone say if you deliver "X" foot pounds at a given range on a mammal (say a non dangerous type) this should be a good yardstick for a gunsmith to use in helping a customer choose a cartridge.

Bigger is not always better.
If you are like me (almost 66 years, 5'5" and 160lbs) you just don't like shooting the latest "HUMUNGO MAGNUM".
(Or for our German friends the "Eargasplittenloudenboomer")

I have been trying to watch my grammer and spelling as some of our friends have had a good time picking on my inability to alwayse hit the correct key and my "fat-fingered" typing.

To address your question; I just don't have a good answer. That is why I asked.

M.Greene

sound advice is to find the caliber you can shoot and train like mad with it.

there's no yardstick .. there's not a WHIT of difference from a 257 weatherby to a 300 weatherby in hunting non-dangerous game .. look at the "energy" numbers .. a 30-30 can kill any nondangerous game in america, and has, for over 100 years .. same for the 303 and the 7x57 .. those are realistic hunting guns.

north american animals?
sd of .250, impact vel at least 1800fps, and it will drill a hole through any deer/elk/hog here .. and probably do the same for african game, though I don't have direct knowledge on that.


dangerous THIN skinned game (bears, cats, bison) 338 and up .. pick your poison, they all do the same thing

thick skinned heavy dangerous game?
sd of .300+ (.280 if its a copper/brass mono bullet) at least .366 diameter, and something like 4K ME ..

wait a second, jeffe, you kinda poopoo ME ..

Yep, I do, but that bracket requires something like a 375HH class, with 300gr bullets, to make it,,

MV should be LESS than 2500 fps for the other bracket... you defeat bullet construction of a soft at high impact speeds ... "speed kills" requires the bullet to expanded and/or fail .. fail being less than 80% retained weight .. which is why you don't use a 257 weatherby with jacketed solids on buffalo, even though frank barnes did a 6.5 QT and shot clean through one.

big guns aren't hard to shoot .. really. anyone that can shoot a break open 12ga will love a 375HH, and can handle it well.

what are you going to shoot, should be the question. A 30-06 aint an elephant gun, though they've been killed with them .. and a 460 weatherby aint a whitetail gun, though they have been killed with them.

NOTHING shoulder fired is going to blast a game animal backwards .. the WOUND causes the damage, not the animal flying through the air.

someone wants a big gun AND they reload? 458 lott - can load it down to 45LC kind of performance, or up to painful .. it spans the distance of the range.

want a heavy elk gun? 338 something or other ... great long distance striking, good heavy bullets, and will work just fine on bears and bison... EXCEPT the 338 federal, which is just a 308 with a broader bullet

can hardly go wrong with 30-06 or 8mm mauser, if the fella reloads, or antyhing nice in the middle..

recoil sensitive? 257 roberts, kills deer DEAD, pigs to, the germans use it for night hunting, as it has low recoil and they use big optics scopes

RGB is about your build and near in vintage .. and shoots the 600 overkill and 585 nyati like most of use handle a 20 ga.

On the sand filled drum it is only half full because of so many holes in it the sand has leaked out.

300-400lb 55 gal drum filled with sand does not budge from the 600 ok with any bullets i have fired and none have penetrated through. I thought for sure it was going to knock the drum over when I first built the 600 it didnt budge the sand filled drum. If you hung the drum from a chain maybe you would get some reaction but I dont think much.

I dont know all the mathmatical figures and dont rely on them. I just go by what I experience, same with sight in ballistic callculators get you close but nothing beats actual field experience. I shot a bushbuck with a 500 gr GMX 458 lott and hit him slightly high and it looked like he blew back 10 feet and over backwards, but it was just him reacting to the bullet hitting his body, he was 30 yds into the swamp dead from where bullet impact was with a 5ft diameter blood spray on the reeds he was in front of, so he was very much alive after bullet hit.

The only animal i think truly blows away is prairie dogs, I have seen them as high as 20ft maybe higher, I dont think they can jump or react that high, but what does a praire dog weigh

This thread has provided some interesting data on this subject of stopping power. I can't wait for my best friend and buttshooter Hotsh#t to drop a gem on us and add a sense of completion to the information shared from experience.

I remember watching an episode of Guns & Ammo on TV(I think that was the program??) where a couple of bozos dressed up in white lab coats reviewed a scene from "Open Range" where a bad guy is shot with a shotgun and flies backwards about 25 feet. They hung up 1/2 of a pig which could of weighed around 125 pounds on a stand and shot it at 20 feet +- with 00 shot from a shotgun and the carcass didn't hardly move even though it was suspended!!! Their conclusion was the bad guy's fly back was nothing but Hollywood.

Having seen that happen in many Westerns it now is funny to see how far back the stunt man will be pulled by the steel cable. Makes me feel for the stunt guy.

This should churn things up a bit.

I was given a reference to an online ballistics program "Ultimate Ballistics" from UBC Software.
In the program they recommend the following:
* * *
I QUOTE;
At the range the game is "found" adequate energy for a "Clean Kill" is as follows:
Deer = 1200 ft-lbs.
Elk = 1600 ft-lbs.
And (This is the tough one.)
Ordinary African Game = 2200 ft-lbs.

Talk to me.
M. Greene

Mike

colorado Division of Wildlife

big game rules and regs

.24 cal min
expanding bullet 70grains min for deer, pronghorn, and bear.
80 grains for elk, and moose
impact energy of 1000-ft lbs @100 yds as rated by the manufacurer

who the hell hunts moose or elk with an 80 grain bullet? I think they should up the min a little 130gr? at least

No wonder I always see wounded elk running around with a broke front leg 3 good legs, ass shot and gut shot.

I still dont know the truth about stopping power. I just use more gun than most

Jfeosso: take a minute and learn the difference
between Energy and Momentum. It would be worth your while when discussing bullet impact.
good Luck!

As well as material absorption as to energy expenditure .

There was never a threat of any sort unless you perceived it , a simple experiment in which you were to

be the recipient of impact . I once observed a motorcycle rider knocked off his bike by a rock

which flew up from under a semi's tire , while traveling down the road .

Here's a self serving experiment for you jeffeosso ; Get a patio style paving brick and a half brick .

2"X4"X8" 2X2X4 be sure and use both examples !.

Now tie a rope on them and suspend one end of the rope too a tree limb . Have an assistant pull back

that rope say 4 Ft. make sure you're standing straight and the brick is forehead high , have him or her

let it go . OK you didn't fall backwards did you !. Now have them pull it back 20 +Ft. and let it go .

Please be sure and have them video tape this experiment as I would like to personally see it .

Do the math on that also so we can ALL see just how little energy it actually took to KNOCK YOU

ON YOUR ASS !. Brick will never come close to 2200 FPS although it will weigh more than 437-700 grains .

There are trade offs , such is life .

Doc,

Shall we all assume that you cannot show the arithmetic to prove your point that a shoulder fired projectile can physically move an average sized person?

Just wondering.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
Myths Revisited 2 - Blown Away

excellent - Thanks Charles!

hey, hollywood .. at 4:55-5:40, hit with a 12 ga deerslug -center of chest.. moved ONE INCH and crumped into his steps

7:00 - 8:00 .. HIT WITH A 50 BMG at 22 feet

less than THREE inches ...

"8:15-8:24"
"can we just put this one to rest??

Hollywood - this one is for you!

You can stop making the internet death threats now

Perhaps one should inform our Military service Snipers of that ineffective .50 cal they've been using .

Much further than 20 yd I might add . Sorry about the quality , a personal one I received of the record

Canadian confirmed distance kill of 1.5 Miles ; Unfortunately I'm not allowed to post it on any internet

photo video sites . Here's one I did find on the Net . Graphic Images !!!.



http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/35699/

I'd have to say BLOWN AWAY is a fairly accurate description . Didn't see anything fly forward .

Does it make you feel like a Big Man or Important in some way shape or form to continually accuse me of

making a threat against you ?. As I stated previously I don't make threats !. So why do you continue

to perceive it as one , are you truly that insecure ?.

If the bullet has enough energy to knock a deer over, it would have about enough energy to knock the shooter over. It's the law, Newton's 3rd to be exact.

Doc,

You really should read the posts...no one is debating the ability of a bullet to kill or stop a threat.

That are stating that animals and pople do not fly backwards becuas eof the impact from a bullet. They jump or move because of the muscle reaction caused by the pain and nerve reaction.

When I touch an ice cube to someone's neck they jump a foot not because of the energy of being touched by an ice cube but by the nervous reaction of the body.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:
I shall then take a 12 gauge W/slug and stand you out at 20 yd ,then do a head shot on you

Do you consider this to be a "joke"

On a bullet 'knocking' someone or some critter off its feet, I once shot a hare side on with a 22 hornet. The bullet struck the back of the head, exploding the brain into the cranial cavity which flipped the hare oa complete circle, feet in the air and all! There's plenty energy in a bullet to do funny things if that energy can be directed just so - which it usually isn't. As for knocking a man back into a room with a shotgun slug - well exactly how much energy or momentum does it require to move a body that has suddendly lost it's balance due to shock and the ability to correct the small motion imparted by that slug. A gun will not knock a shooter over backwards because his whole body moves with the force of recoil, absorbing it. Try standing leaning over backwards while firing a shotgun and see what happens. You'll take a few steps back to stop from falling over. I know this because I stood hehind the lady to catch her when I saw how she was standing! She was already fully extended rearward and had no more absorbtion in her. It's about loss of balance.

The hanging pigs were not knocked over by the hit from the shotgun because the carcases were hanging by their legs. Balance them delicately in the 'standing' position (a bit hard to do) and they'll fall over in the direction of the slug.

Having said all that, muscle reaction can cause an animal to physically lift of the ground.

NO Joke ! ; A simple experiment to show you the law of physics

Again speaking metaphorically , don't take things personal . Why would I want to threaten you

you've not threatened me and what would be the point ! .



Kinetic Energy is expressed as

KE = \frac 1 2 mv^2

note that the velocity is squared.

Momentum is expressed

p = mv

While both of these quantities are functions of the mass and velocity they have different meanings and different uses. The Kinetic energy is an expression of the ability to do work, why? Well work is given as

W = F d

F here is force, which is given by

F = {mass}* {acceleration}

acceleration has units of

a = \frac {Length} {{Time}^2}

now if we but these last pieces together we can see that the fundamental units of work are
W = {mass} \frac {Length} {{Time}^2} * {Length}

combine the 2 lengths to get

W = {mass} ({\frac {Length} {Time}})^2

This is the same units as those of Kinetic energy because length over time is velocity so the last term is the above expression is the velocity squared.

A good thing to learn about Physics is that you can check your answer by simply computing the units, this is called dimensional analysis, if the units are correct chances are you have the correct solution.

Speaking of units Kinetic Energy expressed as

KE = \frac {ft} {lbs}

This cannot be correct! KE must be given in Ft-Lbs. Do you see the difference? Where did ft lbs come from? Look at the above expression for work, as force times distance. The English unit for mass is actually SLUGS, pounds is a unit of force so ft-lbs is the correct unit for energy or work.

Now why cannot you use momentum to compute the work done by a bullet? Simply because it is not the work done! Momentum is a different quantity with different units, like apples and oranges work and momentum cannot be compared.

Mike_Dettorre ;I understand that perfectly as I did not say it would Blow someone back 6 ft.or any amount

of footage . A shotgun or most any other large caliber mushroom projectile

will set some one back at close range or at least parts of them !!!!!!!!!!.

I was speaking metaphorically in those statements .

quote:

It slams the door shut after blowing the recipient back into the room !!!

quote:

Nothing beats lifting them off their feet whether it be 2 or 4 legged .

Unfortunately I have had personal experience with what a shotgun can do too a person at close range

and I stand by this statement ; In most cases it will set the forward momentum of the target rearward as

well as several pieces of tissue REARWARD UPWARD and DOWNWARD .

People like animals are more likely to be tipped from a quartering shot rather than a frontal shot .

As any of us hunters know blowing an animal backwards is nonsense . Unless it's a Dove within 30 ft. of a

full choked 12 gauge with 7 1/2 shot !. Then it really hard to prove because there's nothing left except

feathers !!!.

I have thrown a fist sized rock/stone into the air then as it fell downward, shot it with a shotgun and it lifted up some (it was not moving down very fast, nor was it very far - it seemed the whole shot load hit it).

The momentum of an object is the force it's going to apply when it hits something. One of the problems in understanding force, momentum and energy (as well as heat) are the units of measure being used. Think of this; a man has 80kg mass (me). A slug of 500gr traveling at 1500fps (doing some translations here) is 32g or 0.032 kg at 457 m/s giving a momentum of 14.6 kg·m/s Man weighs 80kg. He's going to move at a speed of 14.6/80.032 m/s = 0.18 m/s ==> (.6fps)

Not very fast but it will push him over if he doesn't take corrective measures which are going to be difficult when his movement has been caused by a thumping piece of lead!

This kind of momentum cannot push a drum of water over because the drum is way too stable. Besides, the energy and momentum gets dissipated laterally as well.

The shooter on the other hand will absorb somewhat more momentum that that.

I have learned one thing with this post.
If you can't answer the question that is asked by the person who originated the string.

You just make up a "story & answer" to almost anything and hit “REPLY”.

i.e. 303Guy

quote:

I have thrown a rock into the air then as it fell downward, shot it with a shotgun and it lifted up some (it was not moving down very fast).

I wonder how large the rock had to be for any significant percentage of the shot to actually strike the rock? Think about it !

Hey, thanks, Michael!

I think you may have misunderstood my intent.

The question was about stopping power and the thread went on to a shotgun 'knocking' someone back through a door which drew a heap of yellow flags! I have an example of a shotgun strike 'knocking' a rock/stone - fist sized - up into the air some. Not a lot but noticeable.

quote:

I wonder how large the rock had to be for any significant percentage of the shot to actually strike the rock? Think about it !

OK then. Let's 'think about it'. A fist sized rock/stone would be 70-80mm in diameter. I already said it wasn't very far - how high can a rock that size be thrown - and the last time I looked, my shotgun bore was 12 guage. Need I go on? (I threw the rock straight up by the way - I should have mentioned that).

I thought it illustrated the effects of projectiles impacting solid bodies. If a shot load of birdshot no less can reverse the direction of a falling rock/stone (fist sized, remember), then it surely can cause momentum transfer in an animal or human target.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:
Perhaps one should inform our Military service Snipers of that ineffective .50 cal they've been using .

Much further than 20 yd I might add . Sorry about the quality , a personal one I received of the record

Canadian confirmed distance kill of 1.5 Miles ; Unfortunately I'm not allowed to post it on any internet

photo video sites . Here's one I did find on the Net . Graphic Images !!!.



http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/35699/

I'd have to say BLOWN AWAY is a fairly accurate description . Didn't see anything fly forward .

Does it make you feel like a Big Man or Important in some way shape or form to continually accuse me of

making a threat against you ?. As I stated previously I don't make threats !. So why do you continue

to perceive it as one , are you truly that insecure ?.

This video is MARMOTS or ground hogs, they are not very big as mountain dwellers, biggest one I killed was about 5lbs(havnt killed alot so they could be bigger but not even dog size), these are not human targets. Its just like shooting prairie dogs with a 22-250. Bigger prairie dog bigger gun, Graphic if you are a tree hugger