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I see some info that threading tool should be ground at 55 degrees as opposed to 60 degrees when threading a 98 mauser barrel , which is correct? No matter where you go or what you do there you are! Yes tis true and tis pity but pity tis, tis true. | ||
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Any smith that insists on threading with a 60deg. tool for an orig.M98, should be given the flick. When grinding your tool, do your best to get the nose radius correct. The disappointing thing about Granite Mountain Mauser actions, is that they did not adopt the orig. mauser thread specs. | |||
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What's disappointing about that? It is a modern copy of a Mauser 98 "style" magnum action. There is nothing wrong with using a standard 60 degree thread for the receiver. I've never met anyone in all my years who choose their actions based on which thread it uses. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I just have the view that if someone wants to make a living out of producing a product that copies the vast majority of orig. mauser design features, that they would be thoughtful enough to include its orig. thread forms. Call me a purist if you like , but yes, I would prefer a new Kurz M98 to have the original .980x12tpi(55deg.) instead of 1.00x16tpi(60deg). The thread tenon specs GMA chooses is not the only disappointment,the fact that a custom smith needs to tune & properly finish a GMA, is another. Several manufacturers of new Mauser design/styled receivers, have found no need to alter the orig. barrel tenon thread specs for the M98. But if you don't see the authenticity issue of a 16tpi(60deg) tenon on a Kurz mauser, then I gather you would have no issue or quiry with someone that produced a high quality Rem700 style clone with .980x12tpi(55deg) mauser spec. thread. | |||
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Why Mauser adopted the British thread is a question. A whole lot of Mausers have been rebarreled with 60 degree threads, all seemed to work. | |||
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55-degree threads and barrel internal shoulder contact are both vastly overrated IMO. Just part of the urban legend of the Mauser mystique. I normally use a 55-degree tool but IMO it's not mandatory, I've used standard 60-degree grinds in the past with great results. JMOFWIW. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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imho, the same applies for persons torquing on the action face, rather than the flange opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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There's your solution, buy one of them. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I think I may have done over a hundred Mauser re-barrels and never used anything other than the 60deg caarbide lay down tooling or fitted to face or internal flange. Ain't never had one come loose or any client bitch about it let alone request anything other. I guess that makes me a "hack" in the minds of some who have been booted off here. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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Pre-ground tools are available at Midway and Brownells...why not just buy one and be happy...no mindless whizzing over minutia. The difference between the two thread degrees is relatively minor...how many other various thread/degree combinations are used...and WHO would get upset with whichever degree was used as long as the rifle shot well and performed correctly.???? HOW MANY would even bother to ask or unscrew the barrel and measure the threads. If YOU want a specific, accurate, politically correct thread on your rifle, then do it/have it done that way, otherwise let the 'smith do their jobs using the knowledge they have gained and not get pissy over little or nothing. Get real with the modern REAL world...who knows what was in the mind of Paul way back when he designed that action...maybe he hadn't been learned up on the use of a different thread...if he had, maybe he would have desided to used an even stranger degree and it would have worked just as well...or not. Luck | |||
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JK, what do the well established ACGG smiths choose when threading a barrel for an old 55degM98....55 or 60 deg...? I know that mauser guru, Tom Burgess would not entertain anything but the orig. 55deg spec. when barreling old mausers. The idea of matchng pressure angles is to ensure good area bearing to avoid edge loading. There is still some mis-match,[the bearing is never perfect] but the steel is also a bit forgiving. It will deflect/flow to a microscopic extent,...certainly not 5 deg. Why would a dedicated proffesional riflesmith/machinist intentionally produce a goofily matched thread? When its comes to ordnance engineering,- near enough is far from being good enough.IMO. | |||
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Mainly, 'cause it works just fine! If you had enough experience with enough Mausers, you'd see that there are lots of variations in their dimensions, enough variation so that most of us cut the barrel tenon threads to match the receiver dimensions and not to some arbitrary 'standard' as some do. The purpose of the threads is to hold the barrel to the receiver, the thread engagement doesn't add any appreciable strength whatever. Only the first 2-3 threads are under any load anyway, see Harold Vaughn's Rifle Accuracy Facts for details and photos. What is it they say? Oh yeah, 'An ounce of experience is worth a pound of opinion!' Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I've used both 55 and 60 degree threads on barrels with the same results, all very good. If I thread one myself I use 55 degree tool bit, if I order a barrel pre threaded and short chambered It usually comes threaded 60 degrees. I think it's kind of like the old .002" crush theory on the Mauser barrel fit. I've done it both ways and see no advantage either way. Extreme Custom Gunsmithing LLC, ecg@wheatstate.com | |||
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Well, I don't know. Never asked. My opinion? As stated before I don't think there is enough difference to make a damn. I wonder how many guys who grind their 55 deg threading bits use a precision sine plate to determine the actual angle of the grind? Or how about the guys that grind their own 60 deg bits and do the same. That little center gauge (arrowhead some call it)that the average guy uses to measure the 60 deg angle is not very accurate a measuring device when grinding by hand. Just imagine using that gauge to measure a bit with a tip one needs to get into a small space, say a tip about 1/8 in long? I would be willing to bet if you put that bit in a shadowgraph or some such to measure the angle, how much it would be off of the correct 60 or 55 deg. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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Poor Trax has not been around the guys that build to absolute tolerances. When I change tubes in the field during matches the lockup is absolute and from the time initial resistance/contact is felt to total 100 lock up is less than 1/8 th of an inch. Now these are Stiller Pythons and BAT actions not 98's. | |||
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Thanks for the replies just trying to gain a little knowledge,didn't want to start out "wrong" appears there is no difference will be hunting rifles but still want to do it right. Hope I didn't start any battles. Thanks again. No matter where you go or what you do there you are! Yes tis true and tis pity but pity tis, tis true. | |||
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About 8-9 years ago I was too busy to do my own work and had a respected smith to rebarrel a Browning mauser for me.I asked him if he did 55 vs 60 threads. "I only thread 60 on anthing? A couple of years later I pulled the barrel and discovered 2-3 threads ripped out. I recut them 55 and was able to save the action. I have never had one ever mangle up like that in my life.That settled it for me.Did he over torque? Don't know. I never gaulled one up since 1973 of any kind of thread when I started machining | |||
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Sounds more like he had the wrong pitch, 55 deg or not would not have had anything to do with it, IMHO Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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A joint between a 55 deg thread and a 60 deg thread has less than 50% og the strength of a 55/55 joint, or a 60/60 deg jount. Please spare me the BS. The whole issue is only a matter of buying carbide inserts in the right angle and pitch.(it can be bought for less than 10$) A 55/60 deg joint will always feel flexing instead of clean solid. When you tighten this pice of poor workmanship you will always start bending the tops og the 55 deg slowly peeling it off until you starts peeling the top of the 60deg. | |||
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with all your M98 experience, what range of angle/Deg. variation have you discovered in the receivers 55deg thread angle? Seeing you say "match the receiver dimensions" how much above/below 55deg. have you had to grind a tool for threading a barrel to match the specifics of the tenon? If M98s have so much dimensional variation in their tenon thread, would it not be more important to ensure one matches the angle? Installing a barrel with a possible 60+deg thread[innacurate hand-ground tool],-- on a receiver that may well have has less than a 55deg. tenon thread, is even worse than 55/60.
I would not attempt to create a precise cutting tool by hand grinding method. Thats what people utilised tool & cutter grinders for. Reputable high standard of work RifleSmiths often invest in an accurate Tool&Cutter grinder for their shop. In all my machining experience in the commercial aviation,marine diesel,industrial HP hydraulics, it was always insistent[sometimes legal requirement] that one be sure to match and/or machine threads to proper matching spec. It was also a basic core principle taught in the learning of my trade(s). I don't see ordnance machining/engineering as any different. | |||
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Trax Take a look at the complete Whitworth thread form and tell us why anyone in their right mind would really want to use. It is archaic and obsolete for good reason. | |||
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Here's the deal. The question was asked "does it make a difference"? Answer is YES. The real question should have been "How much of a difference does it make"? as a 29 degree acme will not work nor will a square thread form tool. (being sarcastic) Consider the point that Kobe brought up. If your tool was ground perfect or damn near perfect on a sine plate or what ever method you choose to use to get within a few minutes of angle. in this case +/- 1/4 degree would be fine. and you set the tool up perfectly square to the tenon. The difference between the two threads would be .002" or there abouts at the widest gap as it is an angle and the gap between the two angle increases. So it really doesn't mean a hill of beans when your are hand grinding a tool and measuring it by eye with that thread fish gauge and setting it up square with that same fish gauge. Not to mention you are allowed like .006" or more tolerance in pitch diameter. You could be off more in your setup then double the difference in degrees and you'd never know unless you checked it on a comparator. And how many machinists check their threads on a comparator? very friggin few. I check the part by what it screws into or onto as does most everyone else in the free world. Normally I would say "Yes you should use the proper tool ground to the correct specs with the correct crest bla bla bla" On single point threading which I've done more then my fare share of, It really make no difference on the parts we are talking about. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Trax, I was referring to the actual major diameters of the tenons in addition to their thread angles, nose radii, etc. One way that you can check this variation for yourself would be to purchase a professionally-made receiver tap and run it into a few receivers. You'll be unpleasantly shocked at the range of looseness/tightness encountered. How do I know this? If you'll put up a suitable 100% refundable deposit then I'll even lend you my own tap! Another way you can better familiarize yourself with cutting tools and tolerances would be for you to get some actual toolroom experience instead of stirring the pot and publishing photos of rifles NOT belonging to you. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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A receiver tap,.. are you serious?...you mean to say you've never used proper & accurate thread measuring methods and equipment? You have no accurate idea of what the actual variation is you have encountered in M98 tenon thread dimensions? But you suggest I need tool room experience.... Your a real laugh. BTW, Ive spent the good part of a yr working in a controlled environment metrology room with all the appropriate/accurate measuring equipment. No,we didn't use taps to check the variation in machined threads on components. Since you mention the subject of photos of rifles Ive posted in the past....... Lets give the folk here an idea of what depth of knowledge you have of high grade work custom MAUSERS: The "politically correct/latest fashion craze BM" you refer to below[in reference to an Echols Mauser], was being produced by Oberndorf and used on Rigby mag.Mausers from 1904. Skilled-dedicated smiths/shops like Echols,Burgess,Miller,Satterlee,Anderson,Wells,GMA,Weibe,Grisel,Heilmann,Blackburn,SunnyHill,Pretchl,etc have prided themselves on emulating such work....Its certainly not a new fashion craze in the premium/bespoke custom gun industry. Such BM did not cost more than an OBerndorf M98 receiver then, nor does new custom BM cost more than a new custom M98 receiver today.
Now the funny thing is, you told us that you once owned an orig. Rigby Magnum mauser rifle, with such type BM. That would I imagine, indicate to a person of logic,basic intelligence and awareness, that such type BM is far from being the latest fashion craze, in the custom-bespoke rifle industry.
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And you're STILL posting photos of rifles that don't belong to you and little pot-stirring comments about smithing methods you're incapable of performing yourself. What a 4-flusher! Before you make an even bigger fool of yourself about machining barrels, I suggest you at least read Harold Vaughn's Rifle Accuracy Facts to get a better idea of just how a thread form actually LOOKS after it actually MOVES under compression! You appear to have no smithing experience, no smithing ability and little actual knowledge of the details, but you can sure copy-&-paste photos of work by others! How about showing us some of YOUR stuff? Do you even own a rifle? We've shown you ours, now let's see yours! Or are you merely a troll, as I believe you are? Waiting but not very hopefully, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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"Or are you merely a troll, as I believe you are?" Joe[/QUOTE] A re-appearance of one recently bumped perhaps? Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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Trax If you knew any better, To measure the pitch diameter of an internal thread requires either a very expensive inside thread mic or a set of thread plug gauges that have a rage of pitch diameters. Either tool will not be in the box of a machinist and veery rarely in the box of a tool maker. Major diameter, pitch diameter, and minor diameter can all be calculated off of a diameter and the thread pitch. You don't need thread gauges or a thread mic to make a barrel for any rifle. and the pre threaded barrels are made to the small side of the tolerance anyway to guaranty the fit. A good part of a year in a metrology lab??? Not even a year. Where I come from we hire women to do that work. It's called QC and SPC. and you won't learn a damn thing in "the better part of a year" try making parts to +/-.0002" day in day out for over twenty years and still counting. Getting a break to work on +/-.005" parts from time to time with the occasional headache thrown in at -.00005" +.00000" And I ain't the only one on this board that has or still is doing it. What you are picking at here is straws. The practice of cutting threads for mausers with a 60 degree tool is a very old practice. Probably goes back to the first smith to rebarrel a military action for a customer and had no clue they were Whitworth threads. Like I said the difference is there but so minimal on such a large thread pitch it makes little difference and is not unsafe in any way. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Kuhnhausen suggests using the 60, I believe, and IIRC Brownells sells their threaded Mauser barrels to that spec, also. The deal was/is to chase the receiver >>I THINK<< I've been wrong before, I ain't a gunsmith, and I'm working from recollection. -kinda fun to see who's pairing up with who in this fracas, tho'.  | |||
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Yeah, well, the truth's still the truth, no matter WHO utters it (grin)! And a troll's still a troll, no matter what his temporary name. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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- what threadform .......depends on how you feel about being traditional. .......its more about function than form. 60 Deg barrel threadform in a 55 degree receiver threadform. - will it screw together .......yes it will - will it align correctly longitudinally ........yes it will. - does it provide the same conceptual fitment outcome as a .002" crush fit on a 55/55 deg thread fit - yes it does .........sort of. - is it strong enough .......yes it is........plenty of practical experience to show that. - is it a maximum strength join ........no its not. - is it significant enough for a p*ssing contest .........No just for the record.If I have one part in a particular threadform & am replacing its mating part , I use the same threadform. What you do is up to you, with adequate strength & alignment being the ultimate objective. Back to the top........its more about function than form. | |||
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+1 www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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I'm curious: Have any of you ever tried to acrually measure the angle on a Mauser receiver? I do not have the precision equipment to do so and have tried casting, spoting, but darned if I can actually come up with the 55 degree magic number. My admittedly primitive methods always seems to indicate 60 degrees. Makes me wonder if most of the manfacturers, thought "55 degrees?...screw that" I tend to be like most "believe everything you see in print" and go with the 55 degree on Mausers,but sure like those snazzy carbide inserts for everything else. GMA uses 60 degree for good reason....universal... and that thread is a perfect triangle. | |||
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Trax might find something more important to think about if he examined the threads of a Siamese Mauser receiver and barrel shank. I don't know anyone that can cite the standards for those threads. BTW if Trax wanted really accurate thread he would pay to have them ground... Who knows what kind of ugly threads lurk inside all those cut and pastes he posts. | |||
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Mark Stratton had a source for 55 deg inserts but for the life of me I can't remember who it was. Don | |||
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Many companies make 55 degree inserts. I guess I'm old fashioned, I still use HSS and grind my own.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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I've barreled a pretty fair number of both match and sporting rifles over the years, and must admit that I've never even tried to measure the thread angles of either the receivers or on the original barrels removed from them. About maybe a third of my threading tools I bought pre-ground, the others I made by eye-ball and gauge myself. Can't say I've ever found a difference in how the rifles performed afterward so long as the bores were carefully centered when being threaded and chambered. BUT, I do have a question I haven't yet seen addressed in this thread: When one screws tight fitting threads together (and I cut mine so they ARE tight fitting), then applies 50,000+ cartridge psi to the inside of the threaded area many, many times, isn't it natural to assume the threads are expansion form-fitted to each other by that force? So, even if the threads were as much as 5 degrees different to start with, won't they shortly end up mating perfectly? If not, why not? And if they are, why needlessly sweat the small stuff? | |||
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Interesting that: you feel that a goofily matched thread is more than adequate, But you feel so strongly a Mauser should have nuclear grade/full penetration welds on its custom bolt handle. You suggest that smiths like Mr. Weibe should go the extra mile, even though lengthy experience tells him his less than nuke grade welds have proven more than adequate over time. Why such obsession with one part of the rifle build, when obviously less than ideal is deemed as more than adequate in another? How is the desire to strive for closer to ideal thread contact/match-up, any different to the desire to strive for the perfect weld? | |||
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Depends on the pressure and depends on the mismatch of the thread. One the barrel will move (swell) every time it is fired. But it should not swell past the point of being elastic. Meaning it should return to it's original shape. If it does not then you have seriously weakened the steel buy subjecting it to pressures that are beyond it's rated yield point. They thing is I have no idea how much the steel is moving to begin with. This can be calculated but I dare to see why. We know that once a barrel has been subjected to enough firings that the headspace has moved it is time to retire the barrel. and we also know that if a barrel looses it headspace in just a few shots that's just as bad too. But i'd be willing to bet that if it was subjected to enough pressure to change the headspace with out unthreading the barrel from the action it would have a hard time staying in one piece too. I don't think it was JD that pushed the issue of a Nuke grade weld. That I believe was another fellow here. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Trax is correct in the fact that I firmly believe in the benefit of full-penetration welds. That's the ONLY thing he's correct about. He's trying, once again, to foment hate & discontent among the brethren here. What a troll! Just for the record, I've used and continue to use both 55- and 60-degree tooling for my Mauser barreling, I always strive for full-pen welds and I've almost always ground my own HSS cutters to whatever form and dimension necessary. I've also barreled a couple hundred Mausers and another couple hundred other rifles over the last 45 years. If Trax ever shows us a photo of any rifle HE has smithed or, for that matter, even one single rifle that HE actually OWNS, it'll be the first! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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http://www.kaisertool.com/ Mark Pursell | |||
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