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This is a good source. http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCom...24&searchandizedOk=Y _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Just for my own information. Back in the day does anyone know if the Mauser threads were cut with a tap or were they single pointed. Should be able to tell just by looking. Back in the 1890's threads weren't cut to a standard yet. Anything and everything was used to the whim of the designer. | |||
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I agree it probably should not permanently deform. It should especially not do it rapidly.... maybe. Still, I am not certain rapid pressure deformation really weakens all steels that much, if at all. Isn't that what is happening when barrels and chambers are hammer-forged? As a matter of fact, isn't that what happens when ANYTHING steel is forged...like rifle actions used to be? I guess my point (question) was, if it temporarily deforms to make a perfect fit during the pressure period, how much better do we have to make it initially? Is there any point in worrying about it? Is there really any point in worrying about it if BARREL STEEL is permanently deformed? I have never had a problem with mine and don't really understand all the concern being shown over a non-problem, so I'd like to get the real physics of it straight in my head. | |||
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Lets say weaken was the wrong term to use. Lets say Compromise the integrity. Meaning that the steel is most likely just as strong as it was before it moved but now it's in a different place and maybe will not have the support and therefore the structural strength it needs to do the job. But I have to Agree I really think it's a non issue. J.D. I agree Full penetration welds are the strongest and best for something like this. As per the Nuke comment though. I believe there is another person the posts and has has some Nuke credential in their signature. and I would hope Trax is referring to that guy but he just may be trying to push your buttons to. I can justify a full pen weld on a bolt handle as a lot of rifles use the bolt handle as a safety lug. now being that the weld is now going to be a safety device I would want that weld to be as strong as possible www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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No hate and discontent at all, I'm simply pointing out your HYPOCRISY . Heres what you had to say about Duane Wiebes bolt welding efforts:
repeat: Why such obsession with BH welds , when less than ideal barrel thread match/contact is deemed as good enough/working just fine? How is the desire to strive for closer to ideal thread contact/match-up, any different to the desire to strive for the perfect weld? If people are highly unlikely to ever pull the barrel on their custom to scrutinize the thread work, why would anyone really feel the need or desire to X-Ray the bolt handle join? | |||
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What kind of tooling uses those inserts? Don | |||
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JD had welds X-Rayed in his "Nukie" career, and suggests smiths need to do the same with mauser BH welds to know if it has full penetration, in order for it to be considered "best quality" workmanship. If a mauser blows and the third lug don't save me, i doubt a full penetration weld BH will. A response to J.D.Steeles comments on Duanes BH weld;
I believe ACGG appreciates people who strive to raise the bar in quality & workmanship, instead of abusing Joe, why not ask him to help guide & instruct less learned ACGG members on proper/perfect BH welds? [quote] "..The Guild strives to promote standards of excellence.." [quote] Im some way I[Trax] am just like JD.Steele and the ACGG in attitude, I like to see people strive to improve things, be it ideal quality BH welds or most accurate barrel thread work on mausers. Yet I've been accused of fusing over virtually nothing.....yet high level custom smiths make a living out of fussing over many aspects of a rifle build...Some fuss/strive much more than others do. When I spoke with Ralf Martini At ACGG, among other things, we discussed the subject of precise-accurate threading of barrels into receivers, he enthusiastically embraced the subject very well and didn't dismiss it as insignificant fussing. During the discussion he proceeded to pull some metalwork apart to show/explain to me the grade of his thread work. Then again hes a craftsperson who strives, which is evident in his work and as a result he has become a a very successful and highly respected smith. | |||
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Trax has once again tried to confuse the issue by going off on a tangent with his own ignorance and confusion. My emphasi8s on full-pen weldments was in reference specifically to DGRs and other high-end customs. I don't care about any additional safety lugs, the Mauser 98 already has a fine one and that's the specific rifle we were discussing. My main concern was with a bolt handle that might be bent or torn off in the heat of battle with some irate beastie (grin). I stand fully behind every statement that I recall making in that discussion. My recommendation was to use a local welder who was qualified in nuclear-grade instrumentation welding simply because he would likely be a far, FAR better welder than ANY gunsmith, period. No, a rifle doesn't need nuclear-grade welds but a welder that's nuclear-qualified is fairly easy to find so why not use the best? THAT'S why I recommended the best workman and the best technique for welding a bolt handle on a DGR, because less-than-the-best just might cost a hunter his life! When you consider things THAT way, 55- vs 60-degree threads kinda pales in comparison, doesn't it? At least for non-trolls.... Trax, I dare you to prove you're not a troll by showing us a pic of you holding JUST ONE custom rifle that you have either commissioned or built yourself. Just one! Waiting sceptically, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Originally posted by J.D.Steele: Trax has once again tried to confuse the issue by going off on a tangent with his own ignorance and confusion. NO I haven't, I've simply demonstrated your hypocrisy. My emphasi8s on full-pen weldments was in reference specifically to DGRs and other high-end customs. I don't care about any additional safety lugs, the Mauser 98 already has a fine one and that's the specific rifle we were discussing. My main concern was with a bolt handle that might be bent or torn off in the heat of battle with some irate beastie (grin). I stand fully behind every statement that I recall making in that discussion. My recommendation was to use a local welder who was qualified in nuclear-grade instrumentation welding simply because he would likely be a far, FAR better welder than ANY gunsmith, period. No, a rifle doesn't need nuclear-grade welds but a welder that's nuclear-qualified is fairly easy to find so why not use the best? THAT'S why I recommended the best workman and the best technique for welding a bolt handle on a DGR, because less-than-the-best just might cost a hunter his life! Im almost certain that owners of high grade customs do not want their bolt handle coming off, whether .250sav or .416 Rigby. Name one highly reputable custom smith where the BH has come of his DGR build, despite not having a Nuke grade weld.. When you consider things THAT way, 55- vs 60-degree threads kinda pales in comparison, doesn't it? At least for non-trolls.... For an enthusiastic reputable high grade smith, striving is striving, he takes as much care/attention to detail with the BH welds as he does with barrel threads & tenons.[since your not into the idea of single point threading a mauser, you probably don't see the value in such effort] He will strive to do it all correctly, no need for comparison of "relative importance" He will have complete faith in all his work performed.
WRONG. I have posted images, you obviously missed them or chose to ignore what you saw, others didn't since they [including well talented ACGG smiths] gave extremely positive comment on them, members sent PMs enquiring about the exceptionally high grade/pristine work conducted on them....Considering the rigs are in the Ralf Martini/D'arcy Echols class of work, they probably don't interest you...[you know, those type that go to too much fuss over nothing] That fool Dewey [that moderators rightfully flushed down the S-bend], had the same ignorant attitude as you, till he seen them, he then learnt to STFU and not make a bigger fool of himself....However,I accept that your learning curve is a little longer,slower,more painful than his. You're an impetuous sod with very poor powers of memory & comprehension:.. some time go you accused me of refuting your idea of full pen welds on BH handles, How you formed the view that I was refuting,I haven't the faintest,..considering my view was the exact opposite i.e; in support of you! It cleary read:
Yet in a later thread you say this:
WTF?.  ....Who would you say is most requiring of "special needs" assistance?Do you get off on giving unsolicited advice to craftsman like Duane Wiebe and D'Arcy Echols, on rifle building?
Bad weather will cause these Echols mounts to have what problems exactly?   | |||
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Don Markey That is standard Kennametal top notch tooling. Nothing better for OD threading. For ID threads I've gone to laydown tooling. You can get into a much smaller bore with the laydown tools. | |||
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I'm a fan of Valenite tooling and Iscar. Both have a great selection of threading inserts. Kennametal is on par with them I just personally never took a liking to them. Either way different cutting tool inserts have specific design advantages. Lay down tooling, Notch tooling, wedge grip, what ever they all have their purpose. Be prepared though an Iscar OD thread tool with all the different thread inserts in a kit will set you back about $400. An ID tool kit will run about the same Although you don't need the kit, it is very handy to have the ability to thread nearly any pitch. Circle tool is another great small tooling supplier along with Micro 100. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Why oh WHY are you now talking about scope mounts in a barrel fitting thread? If you want to talk about mounts, start a new thread! Show us a picture of YOU holding a rifle, any rifle, that YOU built or that YOU paid high $ to commission! How come you can't do that? I think I know.... Now more sceptical than ever, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Its not about the mounts specifically, its about an expose of your blatantly dumb statements concerning the work of well regarded custom smiths. So kindly elaborate; how does bad weather & rough country adversely effect Echols custom mounts? Give one instance where a DGR-BH has fallen off because it didn't have a Nuke grade weld, when done by a highly reputable smith? But back to the subject of thread: The more dedicated smiths, single point a Mauser and do their best to accurately match the thread form with the barrel installation. Its called "striving for excellence", just as they do in many other areas of a rifle build, both inside and out. | |||
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Trax, Don't you know nothing made by humans is perfect? | |||
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Of course, I gather thats why ACGG promotes striving for excellence. You support the concept of such striving don't you? Unfortunately people like JD don't see value in people who strive in ways like; single pointing a Mauser & concerted effort to have more ideal match between tenon & barrel thread. To expensive and unwarranted in JDs' opinion. The dedicated elite smiths [and their much contented customers] clearly see things differently to JD. They appreciate such smiths going to such effort, and don't mind paying them for such. | |||
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I'm going to regret this but I've about had enough. Trax, I've seen Joe's work and it is good. I've yet to see any of yours or even see a rifle (pistol, shotgun, crossbow, howitzer, atlatl, kukri, garden rake, etc.) you claim to own. Joe may not be a State Department diplomat, and he can be blunt, but his opinions are based on experience. His experience. They are worth considering even if you disagree. If you disagree do so in a respectful manner. It is perfectly OK to have a different opinion but please stick to the subject. Finally personal attacks only make you look bad. Jerry Liles | |||
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How come you dont have any issue with the crticism-attack he made on Duane Wiebe and others? Do you think Joe did it in respectful manner? How come you don't have the same advice for Joe? JD/Joe openly admits his work is far from the grade of the more elite rifle smiths. If your Not into striving for excellence-[happy with Joes work], I'm not stopping you from having work done by him. Heres what JD was told last time he had something derogatory to say about anothers highly talented smithing efforts:
To end my post on the subject of this thread;
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Trax, how come you refuse to show your work or your commissioned custom rifles? How about knowing your name and location? Are you scared? Or do you have something to hide.... Nah, I think you're just scared. Just a pitiful scared little troll. Show your work if you've got any, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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They have been shown in the past.You read that yourself just a few posts up the page. have you already forgotten? How dumb and unawares can you really be to forget so quick or blatantly miss things that others so easily notice. Were you starved of oxygen at Birth?..regardless, I not here to cater to your obvious incapacities or "special needs". Your probably a nice guy, so good luck with your personal struggles. | |||
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I saw where you SAID you had shown some pics but there were no pics, surprise (HAH)! We want to see your smiling face behind the rifle(s) too, 'cause we can see that it's all too easy for you to cut-&-paste the work of others! Seems to me that you're acting like a coward as well as a liar. Why don't you just man up? Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I grind most of my lathe tools. For Mausers I grind 55 degrees. It takes the same amount of effort to grind a 55 degree tool as it does a 60 degree tool. So why not thread with the correct angle tool? I have a 55 degree fish tail. Although I have not checked with a sign bar, I can see a significant differance between 55 and 60 degrees. Once you grind a threading tool it lasts for a very long time, just a little touch up now and then and you can thread many barrel tenons. The reason barrel makers who offer pre threaded mauser barrels with 60 degree threads is they use dies to thread with, not single point. Dies in 55 degree form would be cost prohibitive. Although I will never attain perfection, I try for it. It is my nature to strive for excellance, mediocrity is just not in my vocabulary. Craftsman | |||
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If the first 2-3 threads are the only ones under load[sufficient?], why do HartmannWeiss,GMA,Satterlee go to the trouble of manufacturing their new receivers with extended tennon threads? Mr.Roden learnt how to develop-create his GMA actions through the guidance/turtorage of legendary mauser builder Fred Wells. And there are still more who go for extended tennon.  Hartmann-Weiss:  | |||
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The extended tenon does two things. It provide more grip on the threads to prevent a barrel from loosening. (not really needed) and it provides a larger area on the action to mount optics. As in the square bridge rifle you have pictured. Other then that it doesn't add much. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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"When I was in gunsmithing school at Trinidad State, they taught the 60 degrees were the threads to put in a Mauser. Nick brings up some good information here about 55 degrees being the correct angle. I rebarrel about 3 or 4 Mausers a month and I have special 55 degree cutters ground by Thinbit. Thinbit is a tool company. You want the thread surfaces to be fully engaged with each other." - Mark Stratton[12-23-2005,shootersforum .com] | |||
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Trax, where are the pics of your rifles? Are you still scared to show them? Trax, if you'd just READ a little, just a very little, about accuracy gunsmithing and thread engagement, you'd begin to see how ignorant you really are. For starters read Harold Vaughn's book Rifle Accuracy Facts, it actually shows photos of sectioned barrel thread-to-shoulder engagement and the resulting thread deformation that takes place under torque. I don't expect you'll actually read the words, but even someone like you oughta be able to follow the pretty pictures! Vaughn doesn't build pretty rifles, he builds benchrest rifles. His day job was as an actual rocket scientist but his book is written so that even simple-minded trolls like you can understand and even enjoy it. For a REAL rifleman it's a real treat! Abysmal ignorance like yours (and maybe some of the ones you cite for all I know) can lead to all sorts of erroneous conclusions, but Vaughn's extensive instrumentation and witnessed target results and actual photos of threads prove his point beyond doubt: unless special precautions are taken (NOT including any extended tenons!) then only the first three threads take any load. Read the book and look at the pretty pictures, you'll see for yourself. Meanwhile, where oh where are the pics of your rifles with your smiling face in the background? You must be still scared to show them...or maybe the dog ate 'em! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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JD, Its interesting to note the number of dedicated higher grade custom smiths/shops who make mauser actions and/or fine grade rifles, disagree with you on the issue of Single Point Truing a mauser & using a correctly/best matched threading tool for the barrel. "mediocrity" must be your middle name, and you surely live up to it. No dout you still have your supporters ,....hacks of a feather usually flock together. | |||
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Ahhh Trax, in other words you're saying that Duane Wiebe, and Jim Kobe are not "higher grade custom smiths" just because they use 60* threads when re barreling a Mauser? From what I've seen these are two of the higher, higher grade smiths in the business today. Jerry Liles | |||
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I would not condemn Duane Wiebe, just because he may not as precisely match threads like another smith. One must take into account the level of work they strive for throughout the whole rifle. now Jerry, would you like to address JDs' comments.....? JD, the guy who said ACGG charter member Duane Wiebes bolt welding didnt make the grade of what expected in a "best quality rifle". He said he was astounded,ashamed and embarrassed by Duanes [dissapointing?] standard of work as an ACGG member-prof.craftsman. Jim Kobe addresses' them.... 
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That has nothing to do with the 55* vs 60* thread. You just painted all gunsmiths that use a 60* thread as not of the "higher grade". That apparently includes these two outstanding craftsmen. You've become tiresome, boring, and irrelevant. Good night. Jerry Liles | |||
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It has alot to do with it, it all encompasses the attitude of striving for quality of workmanship. Your Bud JD wants others to strive for NUKe grade welds, and harshly condemns people for not doing so, yet he says those who strive for better matched threads are fussing over nothing.....Do you subscribe to his hypocrisy? There is no doubt that some highly regarded smiths go to greater effort than some other highly regarded smiths. For example; to be in ACGG one must meet a certain standard of excellence...no doubt there are ACGG individuals who clearly rise above the others in standards of excellence.... [you should inspect Ralf Martinis T/D thread work to know what I'm talking about] thats is the attitude that the ACGG promotes i.e; "striving for excellence"...striving to improve can go on for ones whole career. however I haven't heard of any ACGG members telling everyone they were ashamed and embarrassed by the work of fellow members, like JDs' carry on. You have independent smiths like D'Arcy Echols, who order an Hartmann-Weiss action [std.with Blackburm BM] and decide to replace the BM with a higher grade unit of his own manufacture....yep its called: "striving for excellence"...I believe Duane Wiebe BM also has improvements over the Blackburn product, so yes, Duane Wiebe is of a striving nature also. Then there are those who are content with a Blackburn,... then those like your mediocre minded bud JD, who sees them all as the "latest politically correct expensive fashion craze" Which is far from the truth, since Oberndorf was making them in 1904, and they have been a desired & intrinsic feature on many bespoke rifles for over a century. | |||
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Trax Too bad you have never put a few parts on a surface plate and ran and indicator along it. You would be depressed to find that many bolts and receivers are warped. In use you will never know the difference but you better learn to live with it in your head. | |||
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You'd be surprised how many of todays new manufacture Rem700 clones for benchrest or tactical , have extended tennons....all those manufacturers don't have a clue according to you,... correct? You still have not told us; -why you say Echols custom mounts are only good for varmint rifles and not suitable for rough country & Bad weather. -about one e.g. of a reputable smiths DGR rifle build,where the BH has fallen off because it didn't have Nuke grade Weld. Now before you make the same silly request again,again & again ,I repeat,I have posted pictures of my customs in the past. Considering you have absolutely no real idea of what I look like, what would it matter if I was in the photo or not? How the f*ck would you know who the person really was that was in the photo? Now how about some answers to the above Qs about the mounts and non nuke-BH. Now, to demonstrate the difference between people who "strive" and those that settle for "mediocrity": When JD Steele could not find aftermarket BM for his Intermedaite Mauser builds several yrs ago, he coped out and settled for the ordinary run of the mill military unit. Now in complete contrast, when James Anderson built a highly modified high grade mini mauser project more recently,no high grade BM exhisted.Rather than coping out, James instead designed & manufactured his own high spec BM for the project. JDs' unstriving efforts:  James Andersons concerted efforts to strive.  | |||
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Trax You are absolutely splitting hairs. And grasping for straws. Going off on a tangent does little to support your case. Beating a dead horse does even less. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Is splitting hairs liken to fastidious "nit picking"..? cause thats exactly how some established ACGG members judge work for entry. It seems to pay off. Grasping for straws?, not at all, just show casing the range of dumb statements made by JD on the subject of bespoke custom rifles. Maybe JD, like Jim Kobe suggests, should simply STFU. | |||
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It's threads like this one (and I'm not refering to barrel threads) that make me wonder why I continue to follow the forum. There are some participants who I truely respect and there is a lot of beautiful gunsmithing that is more than pleasing to my eye. But some of the 'experts' truely boggle my mind. When I attended Gunsmith school in the early 50's (TSJC) we were certainly taught that Mauser threads were such and such and we were taught to grind our tool bits to 60* and to use the 60* center gage to check and set up. I ,quite frankly ,would have not known how to either grind or check a 55* tool bit and inserts were totally unknown to me at that time. The tool bit was a Rex AAA or if you were well off financially a Rex 95 if I remember . A LOT of actions were barreled that way in the 2 years I was there with no known adverse results. Bolt handles were welded on with a Smith Victor Acetylene torch and a small tip using mild steel rod for filler. Total penetration was an appearance inspection by the instructor. I have NEVER had a bolt handle break off in over 50 years. TIG welding may have been invented at that time but I never heard of it till years later and at that time tungsten electrodes and inert gas welding was called Heli-Arc and was a very special field of welding and required large equipment with associated high cost. I welded many many pounds of filler rod and used up many tungstens but it was on aluminum. It never even occurred to me to use it on a bolt handle. I have seen several and done two myself,shortened mauser actions, and they were all done with gas welding, again with no subsequent failures. I wonder how many gunsmiths were trained in this sloppy manner and practiced such sloppy work for years with out having untold scores of failures. It's a wonder any survived. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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I am a good gas welder(third in the state of Ca as a sophomore in high school in the VICA competition) but I never considered gas welding as "real" welding. I would love to trade notes with you is the opportunity ever arose. I'll buy the drinks. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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And you as well. You have both made your point time and again on this thread and now it has just come down to questioning each others heritage. Trax if you could simply state your case and walk away you'd be a better man for it. J.D is who he is and he is not going to change. And although you may feel better lashing out it does not need to be posted. That little button "Post Now" should be used in situation like this with due care and consideration. I'm not the best person I should be either. and Before you dredge up my old conversations I'll tell you I've flown off the handle more then once. I may have even totally contradicted myself at one time or another. I don't know the thing is your discussion between you and JD became personal and should have been taken to the PM side out of respect for everyone else on the board. See you let Ol' JD get under your skin you let him push your buttons. and he got the better of you. He's sitting at home drinking coffee just laughing at all this while you are hell bent for leather. When someone like Kobe comes out and says STFU maybe you both should heed that mans words. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Just for what it is worth, maybe this "Trax" guy is a re-birth of the old 22wrf who no longer posts as such here, Same "Modus operandi" Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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Show your photos Trax, or shut up. You say you've already shown them, well, I haven't seen any yet and neither has anyone I know, so I figure that you've not telling the truth here. Actually my opinion is A LOT worse than that. If you want to discuss the reasons why I consider those scope mounts to be less than the best for a wilderness rifle, why then I think you should start another thread 'cause this one is about 55- vs 60-degree Mauser barrel threads. If you want to discuss my welding opinions or my choice of bottom metal, ditto here also, start another thread! At least I publish photos of MY OWN work, how about you? Why are you so afraid? I think we all know why..... You remind me of the little cartoon ankle-biter dog, dancing around the 2 big bulldogs and yapping "Let's you and him fight!" You appear to be nothing more than a cowardly, ignorant troll and I also suspect that you're lying about your own accomplishments as well. How come no one else has leaped to your defense? Prove me wrong, show us some of YOUR rifles here! Still waiting but not hopefully, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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JBrown, Would be happy to discuss at most anytime. Don't really understand what you mean by 'real welding'. I only knew gas welding for most of my life as far as gun work goes. Had courses in welding and learned more gas techniques along with Arc ---flat,vertical, and overhead --- stick only as I was never exposed to wire welding till recently. Became FAIRLY proficient at Heli-Arc but only on aluminum. Don't know that I ever applied it to steel. Don't consider my self a welder by any stretch of the imagination but could once do an adequate presentable job on a bolt handle.I was never an active income producing gunsmith although I have built many rifles. I realized while in school that I didn't have the skill level of most of the professionals on this site and if you don't have it you rarely develop it, so I have been happy with it as a hobby. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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