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98 mauser threading tool grind
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This is a good source.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCom...24&searchandizedOk=Y


_______________________________________________________________________________
This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life.
 
Posts: 3171 | Location: SLC, Utah | Registered: 23 February 2007Reply With Quote
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Just for my own information. Back in the day does anyone know if the Mauser threads were cut with a tap or were they single pointed. Should be able to tell just by looking.
Back in the 1890's threads weren't cut to a standard yet. Anything and everything was used to the whim of the designer.
 
Posts: 408 | Location: morgan city, LA | Registered: 26 February 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Alberta Canuck
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quote:
Originally posted by kcstott:
quote:
Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
When one screws tight fitting threads together (and I cut mine so they ARE tight fitting), then applies 50,000+ cartridge psi to the inside of the threaded area many, many times, isn't it natural to assume the threads are expansion form-fitted to each other by that force? So, even if the threads were as much as 5 degrees different to start with, won't they shortly end up mating perfectly?

If not, why not?

And if they are, why needlessly sweat the small stuff?


Depends on the pressure and depends on the mismatch of the thread.
One the barrel will move (swell) every time it is fired. But it should not swell past the point of being elastic. Meaning it should return to it's original shape. If it does not then you have seriously weakened the steel buy subjecting it to pressures that are beyond it's rated yield point.
They thing is I have no idea how much the steel is moving to begin with. This can be calculated but I dare to see why. We know that once a barrel has been subjected to enough firings that the headspace has moved it is time to retire the barrel. and we also know that if a barrel looses it headspace in just a few shots that's just as bad too. But i'd be willing to bet that if it was subjected to enough pressure to change the headspace with out unthreading the barrel from the action it would have a hard time staying in one piece too.



I agree it probably should not permanently deform. It should especially not do it rapidly.... maybe.

Still, I am not certain rapid pressure deformation really weakens all steels that much, if at all. Isn't that what is happening when barrels and chambers are hammer-forged? As a matter of fact, isn't that what happens when ANYTHING steel is forged...like rifle actions used to be?

I guess my point (question) was, if it temporarily deforms to make a perfect fit during the pressure period, how much better do we have to make it initially? Is there any point in worrying about it?

Is there really any point in worrying about it if BARREL STEEL is permanently deformed?

I have never had a problem with mine and don't really understand all the concern being shown over a non-problem, so I'd like to get the real physics of it straight in my head.
 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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Lets say weaken was the wrong term to use. Lets say Compromise the integrity. Meaning that the steel is most likely just as strong as it was before it moved but now it's in a different place and maybe will not have the support and therefore the structural strength it needs to do the job.

But I have to Agree I really think it's a non issue.

J.D. I agree Full penetration welds are the strongest and best for something like this. As per the Nuke comment though. I believe there is another person the posts and has has some Nuke credential in their signature. and I would hope Trax is referring to that guy but he just may be trying to push your buttons to.
I can justify a full pen weld on a bolt handle as a lot of rifles use the bolt handle as a safety lug. now being that the weld is now going to be a safety device I would want that weld to be as strong as possible


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Posts: 2534 | Location: National City CA | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
quote:
Originally posted by kcstott:
I don't think it was JD that pushed the issue of a Nuke grade weld. That I believe was another fellow here.

Trax is correct in the fact that I firmly believe in the benefit of full-penetration welds. That's the ONLY thing he's correct about.

He's trying, once again, to foment hate & discontent among the brethren here. What a troll!

Just for the record, I've used and continue to use both 55- and 60-degree tooling for my Mauser barreling, I always strive for full-pen welds and I've almost always ground my own HSS cutters to whatever form and dimension necessary. I've also barreled a couple hundred Mausers and another couple hundred other rifles over the last 45 years.

If Trax ever shows us a photo of any rifle HE has smithed or, for that matter, even one single rifle that HE actually OWNS, it'll be the first!
Regards, Joe


No hate and discontent at all, I'm simply pointing out your HYPOCRISY .


Heres what you had to say about Duane Wiebes bolt welding efforts:

quote:
Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
I'm totally amazed.

If you've never seen full penetration then IMO you've never seen it done correctly.
Regards, Joe



quote:
Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
An X-ray is worth a few thousand words, but most smiths have never had their work X-rayed and so don't really have much of a real clue about their actual TIG expertise.


quote:
Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
To me, it's an indication of the quality of the rest of the work. Sure, the void is hidden and the partial weldment may be 'strong enough', but what could it possibly hurt to spend an extra 10 mins to make it 'best quality'? If a craftsman skimps on the hidden work, then.....

As always, the person who pays the piper gets to call the tune. If you, as the customer, are prepared to accept this level of work, then your particular chosen professional craftsman is fully justified in working to only this standard and no higher. OTOH I'm not doing this for a living and so will only work to MY standards, regardless of what the 'customer' wants.
Quite frankly, I'm still astounded that any professional craftsman would actually admit to doing this level of work. ESPECIALLY any Guild metalsmith.
Caveat emptor, Joe


quote:
Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
It's not necessarily a question of being 'strong enough'; in my mind it's more a question of at least reasonably-good workmanship as opposed to 'just good enough'.

One of the first things I was taught at Trinidad was welding bolt handles, and the first test that the instructor used was to clamp the bolt body in a vise and give the handle a heckuva whack with a big hammer. If it bent then it was OK; if it cracked then it failed. Full penetration was not only taught, it was emphasized and made a requirement for passing.

As far as breaking it off without tools, if I can clamp the welded handle in a vise then I can easily bend or break the body off using nothing more than my hands. 'Course, I'm 6"-5" and weigh close to 300....

I'm not a REAL pro welder but have done plenty of bolt handles (haven't kept count but certainly w-a-a-a-y more than 50; MIG, TIG, stick and gas) and other things, and have worked around REAL pro welders for decades down at the nukie. We, like most nuke plants, have a Weld Test Shop where the pro welders come to practice and get professional help from our (degreed) Welding Engineers on the more than 50 different welding procedures used in the industry.

We, like all nukies,have Non-Destructive Examination facilities with X-ray, magnaflux and sonic capabilities, plus we routinely require that the weld-test 'coupons' be sectioned for visual examination of completed welds. I'm intimately familiar with faulty welds as well as the problems with interior voids left by insufficient beveling and shallow penetration.

I repeat, I am astonished and somewhat embarrassed for anyone who does this sort of work. All it takes for a proper job is a root pass and then 1 or 2 filler passes on each side, an extra 5 minutes, what's the big deal?

Leaving any interior voids is CERTAINLY NOT 'best' quality work IMO . I personally would be ashamed. Kinda like polishing the visible parts of the rifle for blueing but leaving the hidden parts rough, it's just not good workmanship IMO.

I don't have anything against Duane personally, in fact I've said before that I genuinely admire and applaud his willingness to share his experience and expertise with the rest of us. However, like the rest of us, I have my own opinion and sometimes it's different, unfortunately.
Regards, Joe


repeat:

Why such obsession with BH welds , when less than ideal barrel thread match/contact is deemed as good enough/working just fine?

How is the desire to strive for closer to ideal thread contact/match-up, any different to the desire to strive for the perfect weld?

If people are highly unlikely to ever pull the barrel on their custom to scrutinize the thread work, why would anyone really feel the need or desire to X-Ray the bolt handle join?
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Westpac:
This is a good source.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCom...24&searchandizedOk=Y


What kind of tooling uses those inserts?
Don
 
Posts: 1085 | Location: Detroit MI | Registered: 28 March 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by kcstott:

J.D. I agree Full penetration welds are the strongest and best for something like this. As per the Nuke comment though. I believe there is another person the posts and has has some Nuke credential in their signature. and I would hope Trax is referring to that guy but he just may be trying to push your buttons to.
I can justify a full pen weld on a bolt handle as a lot of rifles use the bolt handle as a safety lug. now being that the weld is now going to be a safety device I would want that weld to be as strong as possible


JD had welds X-Rayed in his "Nukie" career, and suggests smiths need to do the same with mauser BH welds to know if it has full penetration, in order for it to be considered "best quality" workmanship.

If a mauser blows and the third lug don't save me, i doubt a full penetration weld BH will.



A response to J.D.Steeles comments on Duanes BH weld;
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
I have refrained from commenting here for quite a while; can't do it any longer; Joe, shut the fuck up, you are making a fool of yourself


I believe ACGG appreciates people who strive to raise the bar in quality & workmanship, instead of abusing Joe, why not ask him to help guide & instruct less learned ACGG members on proper/perfect BH welds?

[quote] "..The Guild strives to promote standards of excellence.." [quote]

Im some way I[Trax] am just like JD.Steele and the ACGG in attitude, I like to see people strive to improve things, be it ideal quality BH welds or most accurate barrel thread work on mausers.
Yet I've been accused of fusing over virtually nothing.....yet high level custom smiths make a living out of fussing over many aspects of a rifle build...Some fuss/strive much more than others do.

When I spoke with Ralf Martini At ACGG, among other things, we discussed the subject of precise-accurate threading of barrels into receivers, he enthusiastically embraced the subject very well and didn't dismiss it as insignificant fussing. During the discussion he proceeded to pull some metalwork apart to show/explain to me the grade of his thread work.
Then again hes a craftsperson who strives, which is evident in his work and as a result he has become a a very successful and highly respected smith.
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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Trax has once again tried to confuse the issue by going off on a tangent with his own ignorance and confusion.

My emphasi8s on full-pen weldments was in reference specifically to DGRs and other high-end customs. I don't care about any additional safety lugs, the Mauser 98 already has a fine one and that's the specific rifle we were discussing.

My main concern was with a bolt handle that might be bent or torn off in the heat of battle with some irate beastie (grin).

I stand fully behind every statement that I recall making in that discussion. My recommendation was to use a local welder who was qualified in nuclear-grade instrumentation welding simply because he would likely be a far, FAR better welder than ANY gunsmith, period. No, a rifle doesn't need nuclear-grade welds but a welder that's nuclear-qualified is fairly easy to find so why not use the best?

THAT'S why I recommended the best workman and the best technique for welding a bolt handle on a DGR, because less-than-the-best just might cost a hunter his life!

When you consider things THAT way, 55- vs 60-degree threads kinda pales in comparison, doesn't it? At least for non-trolls....

Trax, I dare you to prove you're not a troll by showing us a pic of you holding JUST ONE custom rifle that you have either commissioned or built yourself. Just one!
Waiting sceptically, Joe


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Posts: 2756 | Location: deep South | Registered: 09 December 2008Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Trax has once again tried to confuse the issue by going off on a tangent with his own ignorance and confusion.

NO I haven't, I've simply demonstrated your hypocrisy.

My emphasi8s on full-pen weldments was in reference specifically to DGRs and other high-end customs. I don't care about any additional safety lugs, the Mauser 98 already has a fine one and that's the specific rifle we were discussing.

My main concern was with a bolt handle that might be bent or torn off in the heat of battle with some irate beastie (grin).

I stand fully behind every statement that I recall making in that discussion. My recommendation was to use a local welder who was qualified in nuclear-grade instrumentation welding simply because he would likely be a far, FAR better welder than ANY gunsmith, period. No, a rifle doesn't need nuclear-grade welds but a welder that's nuclear-qualified is fairly easy to find so why not use the best?

THAT'S why I recommended the best workman and the best technique for welding a bolt handle on a DGR, because less-than-the-best just might cost a hunter his life!

Im almost certain that owners of high grade customs do not want their bolt handle coming off, whether .250sav or .416 Rigby.
Name one highly reputable custom smith where the BH has come of his DGR build, despite not having a Nuke grade weld..


When you consider things THAT way, 55- vs 60-degree threads kinda pales in comparison, doesn't it? At least for non-trolls....

For an enthusiastic reputable high grade smith, striving is striving, he takes as much care/attention to detail with the BH welds as he does with barrel threads & tenons.[since your not into the idea of single point threading a mauser, you probably don't see the value in such effort]
He will strive to do it all correctly, no need for comparison of "relative importance" He will have complete faith in all his work performed.



quote:
Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
If Trax ever shows us a photo of any rifle HE has smithed or, for that matter, even one single rifle that HE actually OWNS, it'll be the first!
Regards, Joe.


WRONG. I have posted images, you obviously missed them or chose to ignore what you saw, others didn't since they [including well talented ACGG smiths] gave extremely positive comment on them, members sent PMs enquiring about the exceptionally high grade/pristine work conducted on them....Considering the rigs are in the Ralf Martini/D'arcy Echols class of work, they probably don't interest you...[you know, those type that go to too much fuss over nothing]
That fool Dewey [that moderators rightfully flushed down the S-bend], had the same ignorant attitude as you, till he seen them, he then learnt to STFU and not make a bigger fool of himself....However,I accept that your learning curve is a little longer,slower,more painful than his.

You're an impetuous sod with very poor powers of memory & comprehension:.. some time go you accused me of refuting your idea of full pen welds on BH handles,
How you formed the view that I was refuting,I haven't the faintest,..considering my view was the exact opposite i.e; in support of you!
It cleary read:



quote:
Originally posted by Trax:

JD Steele,
whether its ultimately required or not, your desire to achieve close to perfect welds is not a value to be ignored.
If full pen. is an std. you strive for, go for it i say, if others are content with less, that be their freedom of choice.
Barreled Actions dont fall out of a stock if the inletting aint perfect, yet a regarded smith still strives to get his inletting as close as possible.
..Is it because its visual to the eye that it concerns people more?, whereas striving for the best weld penetration aint eye candy, so it dont seem as important, as long as the weld is adequate.


Yet in a later thread you say this:
quote:
Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Trax, you are obviously what my shooting group calls a 'special' person. As in 'special needs' person.

The difference is that full-pen welds take ~2-5 minutes longer on a bolt handle while truing & blueprinting a receiver takes several hours. YOU can pay or not pay as you see fit but the time/cost/benefit factor is obviously kinda lopsided; apparently kinda like what we jokingly call Your Reasoning Power.

I guess you were upset 'cause you couldn't logically refute my welding opinion , and this is your way of baiting me; fine, I took it as an opportunity to inform and become informed. That's why I'm here on this forum, to inform and be informed. It was an interesting question and I was glad of the opportunity to hear from others.
You be a good boy now, y'hear? Regards, Joe


WTF?. bewildered ....Who would you say is most requiring of "special needs" assistance?


Do you get off on giving unsolicited advice to craftsman like Duane Wiebe and D'Arcy Echols, on rifle building?

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
.. those mounts are suitable for varminters and casual day trips but not any extended hunts in rough country or bad weather.


Bad weather will cause these Echols mounts to have what problems exactly?

 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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Don Markey
That is standard Kennametal top notch tooling. Nothing better for OD threading.
For ID threads I've gone to laydown tooling. You can get into a much smaller bore with the laydown tools.
 
Posts: 408 | Location: morgan city, LA | Registered: 26 February 2005Reply With Quote
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I'm a fan of Valenite tooling and Iscar. Both have a great selection of threading inserts. Kennametal is on par with them I just personally never took a liking to them. Either way different cutting tool inserts have specific design advantages. Lay down tooling, Notch tooling, wedge grip, what ever they all have their purpose.
Be prepared though an Iscar OD thread tool with all the different thread inserts in a kit will set you back about $400. An ID tool kit will run about the same Although you don't need the kit, it is very handy to have the ability to thread nearly any pitch.
Circle tool is another great small tooling supplier along with Micro 100.


www.KLStottlemyer.com

Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK
 
Posts: 2534 | Location: National City CA | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Trax:
Bad weather will cause these Echols mounts to have what problems exactly?

Why oh WHY are you now talking about scope mounts in a barrel fitting thread? If you want to talk about mounts, start a new thread!

Show us a picture of YOU holding a rifle, any rifle, that YOU built or that YOU paid high $ to commission! How come you can't do that?

I think I know....
Now more sceptical than ever, Joe


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Posts: 2756 | Location: deep South | Registered: 09 December 2008Reply With Quote
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Its not about the mounts specifically, its about an expose of your blatantly dumb statements concerning the work of well regarded custom smiths.

So kindly elaborate;

how does bad weather & rough country adversely effect Echols custom mounts?

Give one instance where a DGR-BH has fallen off because it didn't have a Nuke grade weld, when done by a highly reputable smith?

But back to the subject of thread:

The more dedicated smiths, single point a Mauser and do their best to accurately match the thread form with the barrel installation.

Its called "striving for excellence", just as they do in many other areas of a rifle build, both inside and out.
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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Trax,
Don't you know nothing made by humans is perfect?
 
Posts: 13978 | Location: http://www.tarawaontheweb.org/tarawa2.jpg | Registered: 03 December 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by SR4759:
Trax,
Don't you know nothing made by humans is perfect?


Of course, I gather thats why ACGG promotes striving for excellence.
You support the concept of such striving don't you?

Unfortunately people like JD don't see value in people who strive in ways like;

single pointing a Mauser & concerted effort to have more ideal match between tenon & barrel thread.

To expensive and unwarranted in JDs' opinion.

The dedicated elite smiths [and their much contented customers] clearly see things differently to JD.
They appreciate such smiths going to such effort, and don't mind paying them for such.
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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I'm going to regret this but I've about had enough.

Trax,

I've seen Joe's work and it is good. I've yet to see any of yours or even see a rifle (pistol, shotgun, crossbow, howitzer, atlatl, kukri, garden rake, etc.) you claim to own.

Joe may not be a State Department diplomat, and he can be blunt, but his opinions are based on experience. His experience. They are worth considering even if you disagree.

If you disagree do so in a respectful manner. It is perfectly OK to have a different opinion but please stick to the subject. Finally personal attacks only make you look bad.

Jerry Liles
 
Posts: 531 | Location: Louisiana | Registered: 01 January 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Liles:
I'm going to regret this but I've about had enough.

Trax,

I've seen Joe's work and it is good. I've yet to see any of yours or even see a rifle (pistol, shotgun, crossbow, howitzer, atlatl, kukri, garden rake, etc.) you claim to own.

Joe may not be a State Department diplomat, and he can be blunt, but his opinions are based on experience. His experience. They are worth considering even if you disagree.

If you disagree do so in a respectful manner. It is perfectly OK to have a different opinion but please stick to the subject. Finally personal attacks only make you look bad.

Jerry Liles


How come you dont have any issue with the crticism-attack he made on Duane Wiebe and others?
Do you think Joe did it in respectful manner? How come you don't have the same advice for Joe?

JD/Joe openly admits his work is far from the grade of the more elite rifle smiths.
If your Not into striving for excellence-[happy with Joes work], I'm not stopping you from having work done by him.

Heres what JD was told last time he had something derogatory to say about anothers highly talented smithing efforts:

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
I have refrained from commenting here for quite a while; can't do it any longer; Joe, shut the fuck up, you are making a fool of yourself


To end my post on the subject of this thread;

quote:
Originally posted by Trax:
When I spoke with Ralf Martini At ACGG, among other things, we discussed the subject of precise-accurate threading of barrels into receivers, he enthusiastically embraced the subject very well and didn't dismiss it as insignificant fussing. During the discussion he proceeded to pull some metalwork apart to show/explain to me the grade of his thread work.
Then again hes a craftsperson who strives, which is evident in his work and as a result he has become a a very successful and highly respected smith.
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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Trax, how come you refuse to show your work or your commissioned custom rifles? How about knowing your name and location?

Are you scared?

Or do you have something to hide....

Nah, I think you're just scared. Just a pitiful scared little troll.
Show your work if you've got any, Joe


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Posts: 2756 | Location: deep South | Registered: 09 December 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Trax, how come you refuse to show your work or your commissioned custom rifles? How about knowing your name and location?

Are you scared?

Or do you have something to hide....

Nah, I think you're just scared. Just a pitiful scared little troll.
Show your work if you've got any, Joe



They have been shown in the past.You read that yourself just a few posts up the page.
have you already forgotten?
How dumb and unawares can you really be to forget so quick or blatantly miss things that others so easily notice.
Were you starved of oxygen at Birth?..regardless,
I not here to cater to your obvious incapacities or "special needs".
Your probably a nice guy, so good luck with your personal struggles.
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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I saw where you SAID you had shown some pics but there were no pics, surprise (HAH)!

We want to see your smiling face behind the rifle(s) too, 'cause we can see that it's all too easy for you to cut-&-paste the work of others!

Seems to me that you're acting like a coward as well as a liar.
Why don't you just man up? Joe


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Posts: 2756 | Location: deep South | Registered: 09 December 2008Reply With Quote
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I grind most of my lathe tools. For Mausers I grind 55 degrees. It takes the same amount of effort to grind a 55 degree tool as it does a 60 degree tool. So why not thread with the correct angle tool? I have a 55 degree fish tail. Although I have not checked with a sign bar, I can see a significant differance between 55 and 60 degrees. Once you grind a threading tool it lasts for a very long time, just a little touch up now and then and you can thread many barrel tenons.

The reason barrel makers who offer pre threaded mauser barrels with 60 degree threads is they use dies to thread with, not single point. Dies in 55 degree form would be cost prohibitive.

Although I will never attain perfection, I try for it. It is my nature to strive for excellance, mediocrity is just not in my vocabulary.


Craftsman
 
Posts: 1551 | Location: North Texas | Registered: 11 February 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
quote:
Originally posted by Trax:
Why would a dedicated proffesional riflesmith/machinist intentionally produce a goofily matched thread?.

Mainly, 'cause it works just fine!

If you had enough experience with enough Mausers, you'd see that there are lots of variations in their dimensions, enough variation so that most of us cut the barrel tenon threads to match the receiver dimensions and not to some arbitrary 'standard' as some do.

The purpose of the threads is to hold the barrel to the receiver, the thread engagement doesn't add any appreciable strength whatever. Only the first 2-3 threads are under any load anyway, see Harold Vaughn's Rifle Accuracy Facts for details and photos.

What is it they say? Oh yeah, 'An ounce of experience is worth a pound of opinion!'
Regards, Joe


If the first 2-3 threads are the only ones under load[sufficient?], why do HartmannWeiss,GMA,Satterlee go to the trouble of manufacturing their new receivers with extended tennon threads?
Mr.Roden learnt how to develop-create his GMA actions through the guidance/turtorage of legendary mauser builder Fred Wells.

And there are still more who go for extended tennon.



Hartmann-Weiss:
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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The extended tenon does two things. It provide more grip on the threads to prevent a barrel from loosening. (not really needed) and it provides a larger area on the action to mount optics. As in the square bridge rifle you have pictured. Other then that it doesn't add much.


www.KLStottlemyer.com

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Posts: 2534 | Location: National City CA | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Craftsman:
I grind most of my lathe tools. For Mausers I grind 55 degrees. It takes the same amount of effort to grind a 55 degree tool as it does a 60 degree tool. So why not thread with the correct angle tool? I have a 55 degree fish tail. Although I have not checked with a sign bar, I can see a significant differance between 55 and 60 degrees. Once you grind a threading tool it lasts for a very long time, just a little touch up now and then and you can thread many barrel tenons.

The reason barrel makers who offer pre threaded mauser barrels with 60 degree threads is they use dies to thread with, not single point. Dies in 55 degree form would be cost prohibitive.

Although I will never attain perfection, I try for it. It is my nature to strive for excellance, mediocrity is just not in my vocabulary.


"When I was in gunsmithing school at Trinidad State, they taught the 60 degrees were the threads to put in a Mauser. Nick brings up some good information here about 55 degrees being the correct angle. I rebarrel about 3 or 4 Mausers a month and I have special 55 degree cutters ground by Thinbit. Thinbit is a tool company. You want the thread surfaces to be fully engaged with each other." - Mark Stratton[12-23-2005,shootersforum .com]
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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Trax, where are the pics of your rifles? Are you still scared to show them?

Trax, if you'd just READ a little, just a very little, about accuracy gunsmithing and thread engagement, you'd begin to see how ignorant you really are.

For starters read Harold Vaughn's book Rifle Accuracy Facts, it actually shows photos of sectioned barrel thread-to-shoulder engagement and the resulting thread deformation that takes place under torque.

I don't expect you'll actually read the words, but even someone like you oughta be able to follow the pretty pictures!

Vaughn doesn't build pretty rifles, he builds benchrest rifles. His day job was as an actual rocket scientist but his book is written so that even simple-minded trolls like you can understand and even enjoy it.

For a REAL rifleman it's a real treat!

Abysmal ignorance like yours (and maybe some of the ones you cite for all I know) can lead to all sorts of erroneous conclusions, but Vaughn's extensive instrumentation and witnessed target results and actual photos of threads prove his point beyond doubt: unless special precautions are taken (NOT including any extended tenons!) then only the first three threads take any load.

Read the book and look at the pretty pictures, you'll see for yourself.

Meanwhile, where oh where are the pics of your rifles with your smiling face in the background?

You must be still scared to show them...or maybe the dog ate 'em!
Regards, Joe


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Posts: 2756 | Location: deep South | Registered: 09 December 2008Reply With Quote
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JD,
Its interesting to note the number of dedicated higher grade custom smiths/shops who make mauser actions and/or fine grade rifles,
disagree with you on the issue of Single Point Truing a mauser & using a correctly/best matched threading tool for the barrel.
"mediocrity" must be your middle name, and you surely live up to it.
No dout you still have your supporters ,....hacks of a feather usually flock together.
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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Ahhh Trax, in other words you're saying that Duane Wiebe, and Jim Kobe are not "higher grade custom smiths" just because they use 60* threads when re barreling a Mauser? From what I've seen these are two of the higher, higher grade smiths in the business today.


Jerry Liles
 
Posts: 531 | Location: Louisiana | Registered: 01 January 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Liles:
Ahhh Trax, in other words you're saying that Duane Wiebe, and Jim Kobe are not "higher grade custom smiths" just because they use 60* threads when re barreling a Mauser? From what I've seen these are two of the higher, higher grade smiths in the business today.
Jerry Liles


I would not condemn Duane Wiebe, just because he may not as precisely match threads like another smith. One must take into account the level of work they strive for throughout the whole rifle.

now Jerry,

would you like to address JDs' comments.....?

JD, the guy who said ACGG charter member Duane Wiebes bolt welding didnt make the grade of what expected in a "best quality rifle".
He said he was astounded,ashamed and embarrassed by Duanes [dissapointing?] standard of work as an ACGG member-prof.craftsman.

Jim Kobe addresses' them.... Wink

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
I have refrained from commenting here for quite a while; can't do it any longer; Joe, shut the fuck up, you are making a fool of yourself
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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That has nothing to do with the 55* vs 60* thread. You just painted all gunsmiths that use a 60* thread as not of the "higher grade". That apparently includes these two outstanding craftsmen.

You've become tiresome, boring, and irrelevant.

Good night.

Jerry Liles
 
Posts: 531 | Location: Louisiana | Registered: 01 January 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Liles:
That has nothing to do with the 55* vs 60* thread. You just painted all gunsmiths that use a 60* thread as not of the "higher grade". That apparently includes these two outstanding craftsmen.

You've become tiresome, boring, and irrelevant.

Good night.

Jerry Liles


It has alot to do with it, it all encompasses the attitude of striving for quality of workmanship. Your Bud JD wants others to strive for NUKe grade welds, and harshly condemns people for not doing so, yet he says those who strive for better matched threads are fussing over nothing.....Do you subscribe to his hypocrisy?

There is no doubt that some highly regarded smiths go to greater effort than some other highly regarded smiths.

For example; to be in ACGG one must meet a certain standard of excellence...no doubt there are ACGG individuals who clearly rise above the others in standards of excellence.... [you should inspect Ralf Martinis T/D thread work to know what I'm talking about]

thats is the attitude that the ACGG promotes i.e; "striving for excellence"...striving to improve can go on for ones whole career.

however I haven't heard of any ACGG members telling everyone they were ashamed and embarrassed by the work of fellow members, like JDs' carry on.

You have independent smiths like D'Arcy Echols, who order an Hartmann-Weiss action [std.with Blackburm BM] and decide to replace the BM with a higher grade unit of his own manufacture....yep its called: "striving for excellence"...I believe Duane Wiebe BM also has improvements over the Blackburn product, so yes, Duane Wiebe is of a striving nature also.
Then there are those who are content with a Blackburn,... then those like your mediocre minded bud JD, who sees them all as the "latest politically correct expensive fashion craze"
Which is far from the truth, since Oberndorf was making them in 1904, and they have been a desired & intrinsic feature on many bespoke rifles for over a century.
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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Trax
Too bad you have never put a few parts on a surface plate and ran and indicator along it.
You would be depressed to find that many bolts and receivers are warped. In use you will never know the difference but you better learn to live with it in your head.
 
Posts: 13978 | Location: http://www.tarawaontheweb.org/tarawa2.jpg | Registered: 03 December 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Trax, where are the pics of your rifles? Are you still scared to show them?

Trax, if you'd just READ a little, just a very little, about accuracy gunsmithing and thread engagement, you'd begin to see how ignorant you really are.

For starters read Harold Vaughn's book Rifle Accuracy Facts, it actually shows photos of sectioned barrel thread-to-shoulder engagement and the resulting thread deformation that takes place under torque.

I don't expect you'll actually read the words, but even someone like you oughta be able to follow the pretty pictures!

Vaughn doesn't build pretty rifles, he builds benchrest rifles . His day job was as an actual rocket scientist but his book is written so that even simple-minded trolls like you can understand and even enjoy it.

For a REAL rifleman it's a real treat!

Abysmal ignorance like yours (and maybe some of the ones you cite for all I know) can lead to all sorts of erroneous conclusions, but Vaughn's extensive instrumentation and witnessed target results and actual photos of threads prove his point beyond doubt: unless special precautions are taken ( NOT including any extended tenons! ) then only the first three threads take any load.

Read the book and look at the pretty pictures, you'll see for yourself.

Meanwhile, where oh where are the pics of your rifles with your smiling face in the background?

You must be still scared to show them...or maybe the dog ate 'em!
Regards, Joe


You'd be surprised how many of todays new manufacture Rem700 clones for benchrest or tactical , have extended tennons....all those manufacturers don't have a clue according to you,... correct?

You still have not told us;
-why you say Echols custom mounts are only good for varmint rifles and not suitable for rough country & Bad weather.
-about one e.g. of a reputable smiths DGR rifle build,where the BH has fallen off because it didn't have Nuke grade Weld.

Now before you make the same silly request again,again & again ,I repeat,I have posted pictures of my customs in the past.
Considering you have absolutely no real idea of what I look like, what would it matter if I was in the photo or not?
How the f*ck would you know who the person really was that was in the photo?

Now how about some answers to the above Qs about the mounts and non nuke-BH.

Now, to demonstrate the difference between people who "strive" and those that settle for "mediocrity":

When JD Steele could not find aftermarket BM for his Intermedaite Mauser builds several yrs ago, he coped out and settled for the ordinary run of the mill military unit.

Now in complete contrast, when James Anderson built a highly modified high grade mini mauser project more recently,no high grade BM exhisted.Rather than coping out, James instead designed & manufactured his own high spec BM for the project.

JDs' unstriving efforts:



James Andersons concerted efforts to strive.
 
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Trax
You are absolutely splitting hairs. And grasping for straws.
Going off on a tangent does little to support your case. Beating a dead horse does even less.


www.KLStottlemyer.com

Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK
 
Posts: 2534 | Location: National City CA | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by kcstott:
Trax
You are absolutely splitting hairs. And grasping for straws.
Going off on a tangent does little to support your case. Beating a dead horse does even less.


Is splitting hairs liken to fastidious "nit picking"..? cause thats exactly how some established ACGG members judge work for entry.
It seems to pay off.
Grasping for straws?, not at all, just show casing the range of dumb statements made by JD on the subject of bespoke custom rifles.

Maybe JD, like Jim Kobe suggests, should simply STFU.
 
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It's threads like this one (and I'm not refering to barrel threads) that make me wonder why I continue to follow the forum. There are some participants who I truely respect and there is a lot of beautiful gunsmithing that is more than pleasing to my eye. But some of the 'experts' truely boggle my mind. When I attended Gunsmith school in the early 50's (TSJC) we were certainly taught that Mauser threads were such and such and we were taught to grind our tool bits to 60* and to use the 60* center gage to check and set up. I ,quite frankly ,would have not known how to either grind or check a 55* tool bit and inserts were totally unknown to me at that time. The tool bit was a Rex AAA or if you were well off financially a Rex 95 if I remember . A LOT of actions were barreled that way in the 2 years I was there with no known adverse results. Bolt handles were welded on with a Smith Victor Acetylene torch and a small tip using mild steel rod for filler. Total penetration was an appearance inspection by the instructor. I have NEVER had a bolt handle break off in over 50 years. TIG welding may have been invented at that time but I never heard of it till years later and at that time tungsten electrodes and inert gas welding was called Heli-Arc and was a very special field of welding and required large equipment with associated high cost. I welded many many pounds of filler rod and used up many tungstens but it was on aluminum. It never even occurred to me to use it on a bolt handle. I have seen several and done two myself,shortened mauser actions, and they were all done with gas welding, again with no subsequent failures. I wonder how many gunsmiths were trained in this sloppy manner and practiced such sloppy work for years with out having untold scores of failures. It's a wonder any survived.


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Posts: 2786 | Location: Green Valley,Az | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I have seen several and done two myself,shortened mauser actions, and they were all done with gas welding, again with no subsequent failures.


I am a good gas welder(third in the state of Ca as a sophomore in high school in the VICA competition) but I never considered gas welding as "real" welding.

I would love to trade notes with you is the opportunity ever arose. I'll buy the drinks.


Jason

"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
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Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.

Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.

-Jason Brown
 
Posts: 6842 | Location: Nome, Alaska(formerly SW Wyoming) | Registered: 22 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Trax:

Maybe JD, like Jim Kobe suggests, should simply STFU.


And you as well. You have both made your point time and again on this thread and now it has just come down to questioning each others heritage.

Trax if you could simply state your case and walk away you'd be a better man for it. J.D is who he is and he is not going to change.
And although you may feel better lashing out it does not need to be posted. That little button "Post Now" should be used in situation like this with due care and consideration.
I'm not the best person I should be either. and Before you dredge up my old conversations I'll tell you I've flown off the handle more then once. I may have even totally contradicted myself at one time or another. I don't know the thing is your discussion between you and JD became personal and should have been taken to the PM side out of respect for everyone else on the board.

See you let Ol' JD get under your skin you let him push your buttons. and he got the better of you. He's sitting at home drinking coffee just laughing at all this while you are hell bent for leather.
When someone like Kobe comes out and says STFU maybe you both should heed that mans words.


www.KLStottlemyer.com

Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK
 
Posts: 2534 | Location: National City CA | Registered: 15 December 2008Reply With Quote
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Just for what it is worth, maybe this "Trax" guy is a re-birth of the old 22wrf who no longer posts as such here, Same "Modus operandi"


Jim Kobe
10841 Oxborough Ave So
Bloomington MN 55437
952.884.6031
Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild

 
Posts: 5531 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 10 July 2002Reply With Quote
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Show your photos Trax, or shut up.

You say you've already shown them, well, I haven't seen any yet and neither has anyone I know, so I figure that you've not telling the truth here. Actually my opinion is A LOT worse than that.

If you want to discuss the reasons why I consider those scope mounts to be less than the best for a wilderness rifle, why then I think you should start another thread 'cause this one is about 55- vs 60-degree Mauser barrel threads.

If you want to discuss my welding opinions or my choice of bottom metal, ditto here also, start another thread!

At least I publish photos of MY OWN work, how about you? Why are you so afraid? I think we all know why.....

You remind me of the little cartoon ankle-biter dog, dancing around the 2 big bulldogs and yapping "Let's you and him fight!"

You appear to be nothing more than a cowardly, ignorant troll and I also suspect that you're lying about your own accomplishments as well. How come no one else has leaped to your defense?

Prove me wrong, show us some of YOUR rifles here!
Still waiting but not hopefully, Joe


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Posts: 2756 | Location: deep South | Registered: 09 December 2008Reply With Quote
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JBrown, Would be happy to discuss at most anytime. Don't really understand what you mean by 'real welding'. I only knew gas welding for most of my life as far as gun work goes. Had courses in welding and learned more gas techniques along with Arc ---flat,vertical, and overhead --- stick only as I was never exposed to wire welding till recently. Became FAIRLY proficient at Heli-Arc but only on aluminum. Don't know that I ever applied it to steel. Don't consider my self a welder by any stretch of the imagination but could once do an adequate presentable job on a bolt handle.I was never an active income producing gunsmith although I have built many rifles. I realized while in school that I didn't have the skill level of most of the professionals on this site and if you don't have it you rarely develop it, so I have been happy with it as a hobby.


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