I have a CZ 550 Medium action with a magmum bolt face and magazine, that has been trued up, and I wouldn't trade it for a Winchester action pre-64 or not.

KB

I've had a number of pre 64's, pre-war, supergrades and all. They never seemed to float my boat, and after playing with them, they always went down the road.

quote:

versatility, durability and simplicity???

I owned three or four of them in my younger days, but never shot them or hunted them enough to be able to make an informed opinion on their durability. I don't see them as much more or less versatile or simple than the current classic model 70s. A few parts are different, but not much.

The main thing, at least for me, AND IT WILL BE FOR YOU TOO SOMEDAY when you get old is that they are HEAVY!

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
I don't mind somebody making a profit. What I won't do is pay an inflated price. Remember, "no deal is profitable unless both buyer and seller gain."

That is hilarious considering the source.

Would you care to clarify that in a PM?

Jim

I build mostly big bore rifle stocks so I clover leaf all Mod. 70 tangs, the big flat tang is an invitation to spliting out a stock, seen happen many time, that razor edge inletted in the wood will sooner or later get a gap by shrinkage or the pounding of big recoil and then it gets a run at the tang.

I like the mod. 70 but not as much as a Mauser. My main gripe is that 3 piece bottom metal and that tin box.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
I don't mind somebody making a profit. What I won't do is pay an inflated price. Remember, "no deal is profitable unless both buyer and seller gain."

That is hilarious considering the source.

Would you care to clarify that in a PM?

Jim

I prefer to air it in public. It's about a certain LH MRC action.

I need more info, I have no idea what it is you refer to. Some clue please.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
I don't mind somebody making a profit. What I won't do is pay an inflated price. Remember, "no deal is profitable unless both buyer and seller gain."

That is hilarious considering the source.

Would you care to clarify that in a PM?

Jim

I prefer to air it in public. It's about a certain LH MRC action.

Now I am Pissed! Here is a guy that has blasted me on a public forum, I asked for some info about what it was he was referring to. No answer, no PM, nothing. He does not have the balls to even offer an explanation and I have no idea what it is he is referring to. At least he should let me know what the hell it was that made him make that disparaging comment.

Jim

It was most likely something he read here or some where else and got the facts or parties involved screwed up I could see a comment like that if he was talking about someone else here on this board

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
It was most likely something he read here or some where else and got the facts or parties involved screwed up I could see a comment like that if he was talking about someone else here on this board

I think an explanation is in order. After all, it was stated "I prefer to air it in public." So, air it.

Old Jim here had an MRC action for sale advertised at one price was offered that price and then upped the price and then went so far as to make the deal conditional on him getting the business for the work. It's an awful small world out there.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
I don't mind somebody making a profit. What I won't do is pay an inflated price. Remember, "no deal is profitable unless both buyer and seller gain."

That is hilarious considering the source.

Would you care to clarify that in a PM?

Jim

I prefer to air it in public. It's about a certain LH MRC action.

Now I am Pissed! Here is a guy that has blasted me on a public forum, I asked for some info about what it was he was referring to. No answer, no PM, nothing. He does not have the balls to even offer an explanation and I have no idea what it is he is referring to. At least he should let me know what the hell it was that made him make that disparaging comment.

Jim

I have plenty of balls Jim. Do you?

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Old Jim here had an MRC action for sale advertised at one price was offered that price and then upped the price and then went so far as to make the deal conditional on him getting the business for the work. It's an awful small world out there.

Chuck
I don't know you or Jim, but do I know how frustrating it can be to get worked-up about buying something, only to have the seller pull the rug out from under you.

But I have to say, your MRC situation seems like a trifling thing to disparage a gunsmith over. Keep in mind, few gunsmiths are getting rich.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Old Jim here had an MRC action for sale advertised at one price was offered that price and then upped the price and then went so far as to make the deal conditional on him getting the business for the work. It's an awful small world out there.

Chuck
I don't know you or Jim, but do I know how frustrating it can be to get worked-up about buying something, only to have the seller pull the rug out from under you.

But I have to say, your MRC situation seems like a trifling thing to disparage a gunsmith over. Keep in mind, few gunsmiths are getting rich.

That doesn't stop him from badmouthing Dave Gentry's safety every chance he gets.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
It was most likely something he read here or some where else and got the facts or parties involved screwed up I could see a comment like that if he was talking about someone else here on this board

I think an explanation is in order. After all, it was stated "I prefer to air it in public." So, air it.

Well when Kobe comes back and says he has no idea what LH MRC action... Well I think someone might need to explain things further or be sure their facts are correct before airing it in public. Not saying anything that was said was wrong. Just saying lets be clear here.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
That doesn't stop him from badmouthing Dave Gentry's safety every chance he gets.

Dave Gentry was an owner of a company (Gentry custom guns, LLC - not to be confused with any actual person) - not his personal work - and of the 2, dakota and gentry, i have had about 10 times the failure rate of the GENTRY safety's being out of time.

I was called the day he passed, and what a loss to the shooting sports.

and yet, his safeties were not the best there was

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
It was most likely something he read here or some where else and got the facts or parties involved screwed up I could see a comment like that if he was talking about someone else here on this board

I think an explanation is in order. After all, it was stated "I prefer to air it in public." So, air it.

Well when Kobe comes back and says he has no idea what LH MRC action... Well I think someone might need to explain things further or be sure their facts are correct before airing it in public. Not saying anything that was said was wrong. Just saying lets be clear here.

If Jim Kobe comes back and says he has no idea "what LH MRC action" then he is confirming the already blatantly obvious.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
That doesn't stop him from badmouthing Dave Gentry's safety every chance he gets.

Dave Gentry was an owner of a company (Gentry custom guns, LLC - not to be confused with any actual person) - not his personal work - and of the 2, dakota and gentry, i have had about 10 times the failure rate of the GENTRY safety's being out of time.

I was called the day he passed, and what a loss to the shooting sports.

and yet, his safeties were not the best there was

I know who Dave Gentry is/was and you are less qualified to speak on the subject than Jim.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
That doesn't stop him from badmouthing Dave Gentry's safety every chance he gets.

Dave Gentry was an owner of a company (Gentry custom guns, LLC - not to be confused with any actual person) - not his personal work - and of the 2, dakota and gentry, i have had about 10 times the failure rate of the GENTRY safety's being out of time.

I was called the day he passed, and what a loss to the shooting sports.

and yet, his safeties were not the best there was

I know who Dave Gentry is/was and you are less qualified to speak on the subject than Jim.

Personally I don't know what your qualifications are but willing to bet Jeffe is not as big a bull$hitter and liar as you are.

I remember the deal on the action, thanks for enlightening me on the specifics. You are right about the price being raised; it was not my action and I was selling it for a client who told me to raise the price; I didn't have a choice. Now, for the rest of the story....

I told you I would sell it at the origfinal price if I could get the work! True. But, the part you didn't know about was I was willing to take a loss on the labor part to pay my client the revised price on the action.

GEEEZm, how in the hell can anyone keep a grudge for so long and not know all of the story. Get a life.

Nuf said

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
That doesn't stop him from badmouthing Dave Gentry's safety every chance he gets.

Dave Gentry was an owner of a company (Gentry custom guns, LLC - not to be confused with any actual person) - not his personal work - and of the 2, dakota and gentry, i have had about 10 times the failure rate of the GENTRY safety's being out of time.

I was called the day he passed, and what a loss to the shooting sports.

and yet, his safeties were not the best there was

I know who Dave Gentry is/was and you are less qualified to speak on the subject than Jim.

Personally I don't kno0w what your qualifications are but willing to bet Jeffe is not as big a bull$hitter that dyou are.

I remember the deal on the action, thanks for enlighetening me on the specifics. You are right about the price being raised; it was not my action and I was selling it for a client who told me to raise the price; I didn't have a choice. Now, for the rest of the story....

I told you I would see it at the origfinal price if I could get the work! True. But, the part you didn't know about was I was willing to take a loss on the labor part to pay my client the revised price on the action.

GEEEZm, how in the hell can anyobne keep a grudge for so long and not know all of the story. Get a life.

Nuf said

Nice try.

It wasn't me, but a good friend you and "your client" screwed over.

Hey...good news, there is one in the classifieds right now. How you gonnal get it to Canada? And considerably higher than what I was willing to sell it for Azzhole.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
Hey...good news, there is one in the classifieds right now. How you gonnal get it to Canada? And considerably higher than what I was willing to sell it for Azzhole.

I can get it to Canada quite easily.

The selling price of that action has bugger all to do with your bait and switch routine.

Well, as illuminating as this discussion has been, let's get back to the original topic. Ackley's Handbook is out of print so some here probably haven't seen this pic, it's in Volume 2.

Kinda brittle, eh? Excessive impurities...judgement against the manufacturer...!?!
FWIW, Joe

quote:

Kinda brittle, eh? Excessive impurities...judgement against the manufacturer...!?!
FWIW, Joe

It would be nice to know the serial number of that receiver. I would think that once Winchester found out about the problems with their receivers they went ahead and changed what needed to be changed.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

I know who Dave Gentry is/was and you are less qualified to speak on the subject than Jim.

Nice for you .. Jim is certainly a better gunsmith -- However, in ability to speak for MY experience, much like yourself, he has no qualifiations to discuss MY experience.


ya'll have a nice day, and try not to turn into the wind

JD Kevin -
I just checked my PO Ackley manuals .. no SN mentioned in the text. but it was 264

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
It was most likely something he read here or some where else and got the facts or parties involved screwed up I could see a comment like that if he was talking about someone else here on this board

I think an explanation is in order. After all, it was stated "I prefer to air it in public." So, air it.

Well when Kobe comes back and says he has no idea what LH MRC action... Well I think someone might need to explain things further or be sure their facts are correct before airing it in public. Not saying anything that was said was wrong. Just saying lets be clear here.

If Jim Kobe comes back and says he has no idea "what LH MRC action" then he is confirming the already blatantly obvious.

Chuck I don't know about you but Mr Kobe has more then earned my respect. Now you are just getting dirty and insulting his intelligence.
Why don't you stick to the fact of the case instead of resort to mudslinging. Someone might just begin to question your heritage

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
That doesn't stop him from badmouthing Dave Gentry's safety every chance he gets.

Dave Gentry was an owner of a company (Gentry custom guns, LLC - not to be confused with any actual person) - not his personal work - and of the 2, dakota and gentry, i have had about 10 times the failure rate of the GENTRY safety's being out of time.

I was called the day he passed, and what a loss to the shooting sports.

and yet, his safeties were not the best there was

I know who Dave Gentry is/was and you are less qualified to speak on the subject than Jim.

Personally I don't kno0w what your qualifications are but willing to bet Jeffe is not as big a bull$hitter that dyou are.

I remember the deal on the action, thanks for enlighetening me on the specifics. You are right about the price being raised; it was not my action and I was selling it for a client who told me to raise the price; I didn't have a choice. Now, for the rest of the story....

I told you I would see it at the origfinal price if I could get the work! True. But, the part you didn't know about was I was willing to take a loss on the labor part to pay my client the revised price on the action.

GEEEZm, how in the hell can anyobne keep a grudge for so long and not know all of the story. Get a life.

Nuf said

Nice try.

It wasn't me, but a good friend you and "your client" screwed over.

So you're saying you're pissed for no reason concerning you??? this is third party don't give a damn.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
Hey...good news, there is one in the classifieds right now. How you gonnal get it to Canada? And considerably higher than what I was willing to sell it for Azzhole.

I can get it to Canada quite easily.

The selling price of that action has bugger all to do with your bait and switch routine.

So how is raising the price of a part bases on the request of a customer bait and switch??
It's not right of the customer to do that mid stream but it's the law of supply and demand. If you don't supply what I demand I don't have to sell it to you. and if there is someone that feels it's worth what was asked so friggin be it. I wanna know how your friend got screwed?? did he buy the action?? or just loose out because it was now more then he was willing to pay. Either way it's your buddies fault. If he paid too much that was his decision, If he walked away again it was his decision. Getting screwed means someone actually took advantage of you. I don't see this as the case.
I suppose you also feel screwed when you bought your wife a wedding ring as there is no market value for diamonds it's what the seller can get

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
That doesn't stop him from badmouthing Dave Gentry's safety every chance he gets.

Dave Gentry was an owner of a company (Gentry custom guns, LLC - not to be confused with any actual person) - not his personal work - and of the 2, dakota and gentry, i have had about 10 times the failure rate of the GENTRY safety's being out of time.

I was called the day he passed, and what a loss to the shooting sports.

and yet, his safeties were not the best there was

I know who Dave Gentry is/was and you are less qualified to speak on the subject than Jim.

Personally I don't kno0w what your qualifications are but willing to bet Jeffe is not as big a bull$hitter that dyou are.

I remember the deal on the action, thanks for enlighetening me on the specifics. You are right about the price being raised; it was not my action and I was selling it for a client who told me to raise the price; I didn't have a choice. Now, for the rest of the story....

I told you I would see it at the origfinal price if I could get the work! True. But, the part you didn't know about was I was willing to take a loss on the labor part to pay my client the revised price on the action.

GEEEZm, how in the hell can anyobne keep a grudge for so long and not know all of the story. Get a life.

Nuf said

Nice try.

It wasn't me, but a good friend you and "your client" screwed over.

So you're saying you're pissed for no reason concerning you??? this is third party don't give a damn.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
Hey...good news, there is one in the classifieds right now. How you gonnal get it to Canada? And considerably higher than what I was willing to sell it for Azzhole.

I can get it to Canada quite easily.

The selling price of that action has bugger all to do with your bait and switch routine.

So how is raising the price of a part bases on the request of a customer bait and switch??
It's not right of the customer to do that mid stream but it's the law of supply and demand. If you don't supply what I demand I don't have to sell it to you. and if there is someone that feels it's worth what was asked so friggin be it. I wanna know how your friend got screwed?? did he buy the action?? or just loose out because it was now more then he was willing to pay. Either way it's your buddies fault. If he paid too much that was his decision, If he walked away again it was his decision. Getting screwed means someone actually took advantage of you. I don't see this as the case.
I suppose you also feel screwed when you bought your wife a wedding ring as there is no market value for diamonds it's what the seller can get

You don't walk into a Jewelers with a flyer for one price and get told that same product is a different price at the till. That is not legal in the country I live in.

No one is going to come out ahead on this one. Hate to see mud being thrown but if it is not splattering on me then by all means carry on!


Oh almost forgot---pre 64 I had my first full Wood Custom built on one. That was the first and last. They are a little bulky among other things.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

You don't walk into a Jewelers with a flyer for one price and get told that same product is a different price at the till. That is not legal in the country I live in.

Actually it happens all the time. Commodities are traded at the market rate. Auto mechanics do it Gunsmiths too. And it is legal too You can walk away at anytime. Yeah I'm splitting hairs here but it was not you. And you still haven't said whether or not your buddy bought the action or not. How much was the increase?? and was it reasonable considering the condition??

Let me speak from a Highpower Shooter’s prospective.

Up to the time of the Tubb rifle, the most commonly used actions to build an across the course rifle were the Remington M700 and the M70 Winchester. Pre -64’s were well liked because of the claw extractor. Post 64's out numbered pre 64's because of cost, but the extractor on post 64's were known to wear out. I have seen several post 64's drop the cartridge in the magazine port due to a worn extractor blade.

Bolt manipulation is very easy on a M70, the action is stiff, feeding from the magazine on pre 64’s was generally excellent due to machined in feed lips in the receiver. Post 64’s used sheet metal boxes, the feed lips of which have caused some shooters issues. It was not uncommon to have to bend the magazine box feed lips in post 64’s.


Part breakage in pre 64’s was limited. When this cocking piece nose broke on my target pre 64, the gunsmith had never heard of one breaking on a pre 64. Enough have broken on post 64’s for there to be an aftermarket replacement. Claw extractors will last darn near forever if you remember to always feed from the magazine.





Triggers were always replaced for target rifles. I believe as a hunting rifle the pre 64 trigger is the best of the over ride triggers. It cannot be adjusted to as fine a trigger pull as enclosed mechanisms, but those mechanisms will gum up with dirt and old oil, whereas it is hard to put a pre 64 trigger mechanism out of service.



Dedicated target shooters always wear shooting glasses as gas from pierced primers comes right down the firing shaft into your eye. My glasses have saved my eyes several times.

Though the pre 64 action protects the shooter less than a M98, it was made of 4140 steel which has much higher yield and ultimate strengths. The M98 would protect the shooter better up to the point the receiver ring comes off.

I think the best overall action is a M98 action, but those were too expensive to make. This FN Deluxe, which has a lot of M98 features, cost more than a pre 64 back in the 50’s. It is no wonder that the true M98 actioned sporting rifles disappeared by the 60’s.



It is my considered opinion that the M70’s made by FN are the best built of the M70’s to date, though a pre war M70 is a very well built thing.

Very well stated and I have to agree and add a small comment I feel the Paul Mauser perfected the bolt action (military) rifle with the 1898. There have been a few improvements Such as a Winchester safety, and the M70 trigger or a good Timeny, Canjar, or Jewel. I feel that everything else as a modification to the 98 is a compromise for manufacturing. The Rem 700 being prime example.
I'd liken it to saying that the M98 was designed and built buy a Toolmaker i.e. spare no expense in it's design and manufacture.

The M700 is the Engineers rifle i.e. How can we make this action in huge numbers with the lowest amount of machining operation at the lowest cost possible without sacrificing safety or function while stream lining it a bit.

That said I have no problem owning either a M70 M98 or an M700 I just have my preferences on what rifle should do what.

A beautiful custom rifle with top grade wood. either in a DG african style or an American classic. That should be reserved for a classic looking action like a Pre64 Win70 or a M98.

A decent conventional bench rest gun. A long range tactical rifle, a Varmint rifle. And a very generic north american hunting rifle should be a M700

The rifle behind the door half rusted and sometime used to prop the door open M77 Ruger

The 77 is most likely the one you grab going out the door

quote:

Such as a Winchester safety, and the M70 trigger or a good Timeny, Canjar, or Jewel.

I am not a fan of over ride triggers. I like the ruggedness and reliability of the Mauser two stage trigger. You can butt stroke and bayonet someone and never have to worry about the sear jarring loose.

While I believe the Winchester is the best of the bunch, I only use them because I can't put a military two stage in the mechanism.

That is true. That two stage trigger has a lot of built in safety and I shot a rifle with one for years before upgrading to a Timney. For a military rifle the two stage trigger is best but for me on a hunting rifle I want a clean break. See the problem is we buy these ultra smooth ultra light triggers with out thinking about the safety on the rifle. then the trigger may not be set up correctly to begin with. people have a tendency that because the take up is adjustable they set it so low that the trigger is unsafe.

I have to say though that if I could pick what trigger I would want on my hunting rifles I'd take my M1 Garand trigger and put it on all my rifles but my varmint guns. that trigger is a very nice two stage with a sharp break and a redundant safety John Garand got it right with that trigger, let alone the rifle

I have seen shattered M70s, have NEVER even HEARD OF a shattered 700.

Have seen and heard of M70s dropping their cartridges when the floorplate released accidentally, have not heard of this with with the Remingtons or Mausers.

I personally own no M70s and no 700s, all my bolt rifles are Mausers and one Mannlicher.
Regards, Joe

What's better.....a pre War Mod 70.

Pre War Mod 70s are all cloverleafs.

Cloverleaf receivers were made through 1948, and also had the wing safety (which I like, dunno why).

Transitions '47-48 (standard cartridges, '49 Magnums) also cloverleafs, but had the smooth rear bridge; some had wing safety & some had the 3 position type safety.

Round 48'/'50 (standard/magnums) and on.



My synthetic stocked travel rifles are built on Pre 64s/transition and one classic. My wooden on Pre Wars. Gonna replace the 64s with Pre Wars eventually, though I have more receivers than I need (years ago I had ambitions to build a shitload of rifles in many calibers, but the more I hunted, I found ain't nothing I needed more than a .270 & .300 Win). As far as the anti bind feature can't make a comment as they're all customs.

Theoretically the Pre wars are supposed to be smooth as a baby's ass. I remember years ago Jack Belk posted a conversation he had with Jerry Fisher, who told Belk "....yeah this action is as smooth as a Pre war Mod 70." I guess so if he said it, IIRC his hunting rifle is a 7mm Rem Pre War or Pre 64.

I just don't like mausers. Not one thing about them I like. Upon the advice of others, I had bought 2 Argentines and 2 G33/40s a decade+ ago for projects. But eventually I got rid of them. Only Mauser I have is a sporter that was owned by Clark Gable, never shot it. It's actually a sweet rifle- turkish walnut, monte stock, G&H scope mount classic 60's crap). But they just don't float my boat.


PS And yes gas handling is overrated. Nice in theory, but no matter what you're gonna get peppered- question of luck as to if you get injured. My wife's uncle gave me his 7mm Rem with a .270 shell in it (he did that to someone else too a few years later- senile bastard) and I've also vaporized an extractor in a Cooper K Hornet who fluxed the action and 86d it. Stings the same whether from a '98 or a Cooper. I guess someone forgot to tell the gas........(and I make my living with my eyes)