Having owned just about every major make of BG action, is there really anything better than a Pre-64 Model 70 when it comes to versatility, durability and simplicity???

If so, I'd like to hear why!

JW

I am sure that this will P.O.a few. I have a couple custom rifles and a factory rifle in pre 64 Model 70.
In my view they are nothing special at all and would take a model 700 or older Sako action as quickly as the pre 64.

Depends. The Wins are known to be brittle and they provide little in the way of gas protection for the shooter's eyes. OTOH they are perfectly adequate for most applications and much aftermarket equipment is available for them.

I've owned/used more than a dozen pre-64s but FWIW have now changed over to Mausers for my bolt rifles.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by df06:
I am sure that this will P.O.a few. I have a couple custom rifles and a factory rifle in pre 64 Model 70.
In my view they are nothing special at all and would take a model 700 or older Sako action as quickly as the pre 64.

That's why they have horse races....different folks pick different nags.

For a bench queen, I would take a Remington. (In fact, I have a number of them.) Very easy to accurize and swap barrels on.

But for a mass produced hunting rifle which really suits me in the field I would take a pre-'64 M70 every time, the older, the better. In my experiences, the ergonomics are just superior. The Remington M725 comes close, but does not quite equal it, at least not the ones I've had.

Whether or not the pre-'64s are known to be brittle, I couldn't say. I have owned & used maybe 30 of them over the years, and never had a single one which caused me a lick of trouble.

A few of them, I've loaded fairly warm....like the .300 Weatherby that was a .300 H&H when new. I've been shooting it for 50+ years with 84.0 grains of H-4831 behind a 180 gr. bullet...which it moves out at right around 3,200 fps....well, 5-shot average of 3,187 fps at 25 feet to be exact. But the thing I really like is how smoothly it feeds and how smoothly and easily the bolt works.

Back before the semi-autos took over "hi-power" target shooting in the 'States, the Model '70 pretty much dominated that game. No Remington 700 ever won the Camp Perry Nationals until Mitch Maxberry did it with one in the early 1990s. The semi-autos were already generally well in control by then and pre-64 M 70s were too valuable to convert to match guns for most folks' pocket-books.

So, it isn't a pure wonder, but it is very highly respected by most of those died-in-the-wool shooters who were around in its prime, and with good reason.

I've got a couple pre 64s, very nice, durable and dependable. I like them a lot. But using your criteria, I'd say Mauser. I like them a lot. They are, (pardon the pun) pretty much bullet proof.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Having owned just about every major make of BG action, is there really anything better than a Pre-64 Model 70 when it comes to versatility, durability and simplicity???

If so, I'd like to hear why!

JW

Yeah, the newer CRF Winchesters, especially the early Classic's and now the new FN actions. Better steel, better heat treating, better machining, etc. The gunsmith Mark Penrod has told me many times that the newer actions are light years ahead of the pre-64s, he should know.

Nothing special about pre-64s except to a few groupies. Every pre-64 I have ever owned or seen looked like the receiver was polished with a sandblaster, machining was sloppy, accuracy only so-so. In my opinion they are crude and a relic of their time. I'll never buy another, the new guns are just too good. I have a South Carolina M70 Super Grade that puts custom guns I have owned costing 5 to 10 times as much to shame. The new M70s are spectacular.

Considering what one shells out for a pre-64 M-70 action....IMO he'd be better off to buy a new M-70 (Carolina made) and use that action....
That said.....I'm still a big fan of the push feed M-70s but the new CRF actions are excellent in every way!

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Having owned just about every major make of BG action, is there really anything better than a Pre-64 Model 70 when it comes to versatility, durability and simplicity???

If so, I'd like to hear why!

JW

several .. the "old" classic, until about 6 momnths before closing the plant, was at least as good.. and the new ones are better in EVERY respect. frankly, since the pre-64 is used as a basis for a highly modified custom, it aint all the great "As is" ..

as far as accuravy, savage and rem leave them in the dust

and there's no stainless pre-64s

in short, yeah, there's lots better available, but some folks are stuck on them.. which is good too

Dear Mr. Wemmer:

I owned five or six pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters. They were fine rifles.

I've owned the newer 1990's vintage Model 70's, Remington 700's, Weatherby Mark V's, Ruger 77's, etc. I liked the pre-64's the best of the lot.

Then I bought an old Oberndorf manufacture 1908 Brazilian Mauser military rifle in 1998, passed into the realm of the always possible, and became an 1898 Mauser nut.

So, at present I'm building six rifles on 1908 and 1909 Mauser actions. From an engineering standpoint the 1898 Mauser action is a superior platform to the pre-64 action as far as gas handling and other safety features are concerned.

In practice, as far as potential accuracy or reliability, there probably isn't much difference.

The Winchester trigger is wonderful though, but I've grown accustomed to the original Mauser military trigger oddly enough.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Jeff,Do yourself a favor..find a 8400 Kimber superamerica and work the bolt...smooth as butter and just like its made of glass

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
as far as accuravy, savage and rem leave them in the dust

I can't believe that this fallacy is still propagated, on the web. I know, I know...and the 7.62x51 is inherently more accurate than the .30-06.

Back to the action -- I have shot both, the new FN and old pre-64 actions. I cannot tell the difference other than the new ones seem to be "tighter". In my guns, the new ones are more accurate. I sold my pre-64's because of this.

Yeah, and pray to the heavens that your chamber is right, that the bore is good, that both lugs bear in the seats etc. It's a crap shoot with Kimber.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbearhunter:
Jeff,Do yourself a favor..find a 8400 Kimber superamerica and work the bolt...smooth as butter and just like its made of glass

quote:

Originally posted by Soarne:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
as far as accuravy, savage and rem leave them in the dust

I can't believe that this fallacy is still propagated, on the web. I know, I know...and the 7.62x51 is inherently more accurate than the .30-06.

Seriously? one thinks an as built pre-64 is even in the arena of accuracy that a new, off the shelf savage or remington are?

I bought a stevens 200, in 270.. i did NOTHING but degrease and turn the trigger down to medium weight, and put back in the stock. then "threw" together handloads, at spec length, with a decent hornady bullet, and the gun was sub moa.. with a 4.5 power DIGITAL day/night scope, and factory trigger

i installed an $80 trigger, no bedding, and its far sub moa...

one never hears of a PURE FACTORY pre-64 that is as accurate as an out of the box savage.

its just plain, hard facts.

What jeffe said, and plenty of it!
Regards, Joe

I have never owned or shot a pre-64, but I have a new haven gun that was very well manufactured and think it is great. I still for personal ergonomics like my 1917, but with a straightened bolt handle. I would love to try out a factory model 30 and see how the trigger is on those, because the safety works great for me.

That said, between my mod70, 03's, 98's I have no preference from a using it and it working standpoint. Mausers I think are the tits when it comes to customizing (but that is largely due to so many smiths being able to do it well and so many parts) and as a friend once told me, they've made them different, but never better than the mauser (design). If cost were not a factor, and more guys knew what they were doing I'd probably stick with 1917 remingtons exclusively.

but that's all about the old stuff, and while I want to own one real good example of a pre-64 some day (just because a collection wouldn't be complete without one). I there are some modern actions available that interest me much much more. The mauser clones are great, and Satterlee's stuff is just tits delicious.

I have two savages in the safe, a 17hmr and a 30-06, the 17 is good, but that 06 I hate. It has a blind magazine, single stack and you have to load it just right or it jams and you have to fiddle with it. Maybe I'm just too used to my staggered mag rifles but it drives me crazy, I'm going to sell it.

I have not had yet but would like to a Sako, I saw one at a local shop one time that was beautiful, but have no first hand experience with shooting them.

in short, there's nothing wrong with the pre-64 but there are some others from factory as good and still others better.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Soarne:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
as far as accuravy, savage and rem leave them in the dust

I can't believe that this fallacy is still propagated, on the web. I know, I know...and the 7.62x51 is inherently more accurate than the .30-06.

Seriously? one thinks an as built pre-64 is even in the arena of accuracy that a new, off the shelf savage or remington are?

I bought a stevens 200, in 270.. i did NOTHING but degrease and turn the trigger down to medium weight, and put back in the stock. then "threw" together handloads, at spec length, with a decent hornady bullet, and the gun was sub moa.. with a 4.5 power DIGITAL day/night scope, and factory trigger

i installed an $80 trigger, no bedding, and its far sub moa...

one never hears of a PURE FACTORY pre-64 that is as accurate as an out of the box savage.

its just plain, hard facts.

Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah

okay, i don't get that...
sounds like belittlement without content, but i may be wrong

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Soarne:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
as far as accuravy, savage and rem leave them in the dust

I can't believe that this fallacy is still propagated, on the web. I know, I know...and the 7.62x51 is inherently more accurate than the .30-06.

Seriously? one thinks an as built pre-64 is even in the arena of accuracy that a new, off the shelf savage or remington are?

I bought a stevens 200, in 270.. i did NOTHING but degrease and turn the trigger down to medium weight, and put back in the stock. then "threw" together handloads, at spec length, with a decent hornady bullet, and the gun was sub moa.. with a 4.5 power DIGITAL day/night scope, and factory trigger

i installed an $80 trigger, no bedding, and its far sub moa...

one never hears of a PURE FACTORY pre-64 that is as accurate as an out of the box savage.

its just plain, hard facts.

The "facts" are very seldom does one hear of a factory pre-64 that isn't a sub MOA gun with modern ammo. I only have 5, they all do so. Three of the five will go well under an inch. Luckily I don't have to rely on what I "hear". ;-) In "fact", the barrels might be considered the best part of the old rifles.

I have owned many rifles, well over 100 and 44 of these have been Mod. 70s. Of those, 42 were P-64s and 2 are customized Classics, stainless ones.

As they came from the factory, for serious hunting and protection in western and northern Canada, the P-64s were superior to ANY bolt action production rifle, excepting the FN sporters and Brno ZG-47s and these last were/are the finest of all.

I have purchased well-used P-64 stds in .270Win and tightened the screws correctly, then mounted a 3x or 4x Leupy on them and shot Norma factory ammo into .6" average at 100 yds. many times.

The great nation known as the United States has produced some fine guns and the Winchester 1886, 71 and P-64 70 are the best of these. period. I choose a P-64 .338WM or .375H&H as a working wilderness rifle over ANYTHING and I have about every fine CRF model of rifle made to choose from.

YMMV, but, after 53 years of shooting and more than that of often being solo in Grizzly country, them there's my thoughts.

PS: RickF is a very BAD dude and he should have told ME about certain P-64s for sale "cheap" here in Canada!!! Old baztards like me can never get enough of these old muskets!

The only thing "Special" about a Pre 64 is they don't make them any more. They are (aside from the high end custom actions) considered the holly grail of platforms to build from. I for one love tradition and elegance. The pre 64 has gobs of tradition but little in the way of elegance till a top Smith get his hands on it.

That said I'd just as soon have a rifle commissioned on a GMA, or an Oberndorf with preference to the latter. Keep in mind I'm talking a traditional American classic style custom. Outside of that it comes down to Form fit and function and a good Sako or Rem 700 fit that bill perfectly.

The Pre-64's are very over rated. Everyone should put theirs on the market(as soon as I get some cash together).

Seriously I love the ergonomics and feel of the action-they dont have to be perfect, I just love them.

SSR

Saw a Pre 64 Model 70 in .375 H&H in the gunshop [that is my second home]. It was sitting in a Browns synthetic stock, [stock looked quite beat up, however the barrel & action were in very good condition, bore would have been a 9/10].

Like the fool I am, I left it sitting there [could have put it on tick and paid it off as well]. When I got home [that is my first home], I realised my dreadful mistake and went back the next day. Would you believe, just after I walked out of the shop, some guy snapped it up!

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
PS: RickF is a very BAD dude and he should have told ME about certain P-64s for sale "cheap" here in Canada!!! Old baztards like me can never get enough of these old muskets!

For the record, there was only one cheap pre-64 still available, the 375. And I was undecided on whether to grab it or not thanks to spending lotso bucks presently in kitchen reno's. I told our mutual friend, and he grabbed it ten minutes before I called.

I did get a sweet deal on a certain fwt 270 sitting there though!

Yep, he called me and asked if I thought if he should grab it and I strongly advised him to do so. He now has it and a nice .338WM, he found at Epps and is "getting the bug". poor soul!

My last .375 is better than that and my .338s are better in overall condition, as well. So, I ain't "hurtin" for P-64s and I know where there are others, but, Brnos are my obsession now and even then, I "may" have "enough" rifles.......


,,,,,,how many times have we all said that!?

Personally I like Ruger 77 MKIIs in Stainless Sty stocks. They have one of the best scope mounting systems on any rifle they are tough reliable and get the job done.

You can keeep your blue/wood stocks (I own many) rifles make mine a stainless Sty stock for tough all around use.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah

okay, i don't get that...
sounds like belittlement without content, but i may be wrong

You're not. I felt it nicer than saying "you're an idiot".

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah

okay, i don't get that...
sounds like belittlement without content, but i may be wrong

You're not. I felt it nicer than saying "you're an idiot".

thanks.. i disagree that its the greatest.. i've had several.. frankly, i think, like most nostalgia things, they only get better when your eyes are tired...

but i place next to zero value on gun/hunting/nostasgia. .. which is the only rational excuse i can see for persons demanding sloppy, semi hand made, production parts are better than today's high precision actions..

but that's just me.. practical over nostalgia on most things

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:

Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah

okay, i don't get that...
sounds like belittlement without content, but i may be wrong

You're not. I felt it nicer than saying "you're an idiot".

thanks.. i disagree that its the greatest.. i've had several.. frankly, i think, like most nostalgia things, they only get better when your eyes are tired...

but i place next to zero value on gun/hunting/nostasgia. .. which is the only rational excuse i can see for persons demanding sloppy, semi hand made, production parts are better than today's high precision actions..

but that's just me.. practical over nostalgia on most things

Well stated, Jeffe. I've been called an "idiot" and worse for refusing to drink the pre-64 Kool-Aid.

For all you guys that don't like the m70, if you find one you don't want give me a call and I can try to buy it.

Jim

I only use two actions, the Mod. 70 pre 64 and the 98 Mausers..

I consider the Mauser superior to the Mod.70 because:

1. It handles gas better.
2 It is not brittle like a Mod. 70 as its case hardened on the outside and soft inside so as opposed to fragmentation it swells up and it might burst or it may not. whereas a Mod. 70 will frag like a granade.
3 The Mauser action has better lines and is not as heavy and I like the tang better..

I can name other reasons for my choice, but most are non issues and if you take care not to load them too hot then both are great actions, that is why I use both and I'm not particular about either one other than I much prefer the Mauser but you asked, so I complied to your request.

The Mauser is considerably more expensive to build a custom rifle on than a mod. 70 as there is simply more work to be done.

Both are good, and from that point its a matter of choice.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbearhunter:
Jeff,Do yourself a favor..find a 8400 Kimber superamerica and work the bolt...smooth as butter and just like its made of glass

Push it forward with "up" presure and it will not move.

OK guys, congratulate yourselves! Not a single fight broke out on what could have become a pretty touchy subject.

Excellent comments and very informative! - Thanks!

Like Ray and Dewey, I have shot and owned just about every stinking bolt action there is (I make my living in the gun industry FYI)...Not to mention my custom Tactical Rifles which number in the dozens! There are a lot of great actions out there - M-98s and BRNOs immediately come to mind.

It just seems that I have had the best luck with pre-64 Model 70s for more reasons than I can count - BUT the main reason I prefer them is the UTTER SIMPLICITY! They have the perfect balance of simplicity and performance features. And the damn'd trigger is so easy to adjust and it stays that way forever - in all conditions! Some said the new CRF 70s are great, but they'll never have that "vintage" look and feel!

Yes there are those more accurate, better gas managers, stronger, prettier, but overall I just have not been able to find a better action for my needs.

Thanks again!

If I could afford it I'd build a couple of rifles on Dakota's (even though I think they are grossly over priced for what you get)Satterlee, or GMA.
Not in that order but those would be my hands down bolt actions of choice. Now if money was no object I'd be shooting nothing nothing double rifles made by H&H, or another High end gunmaker. That would be my hands down money's no object rifles and shotguns

Jim if I find any pre 64s and buy them I'll gladly sell them to you for a profit.

I don't mind somebody making a profit. What I won't do is pay an inflated price. Remember, "no deal is profitable unless both buyer and seller gain."

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
I don't mind somebody making a profit. What I won't do is pay an inflated price. Remember, "no deal is profitable unless both buyer and seller gain."

That is hilarious considering the source.

I remember hearing too that the pre-64 has a better anti-bind feature than the new models?

Can anybody, since we're on the subject, tell me the differences between pre-64, pre-war, and cloverleaf? and to muddy things more, which of those is the best of the pre-64?

I had a chance to buy a plain jane pre-64 in 30-06 once, just a well hunted stock, $450. at the time I didn't need another 06 and passed. too bad since that's about my price point.

Red

Red, the cloverleaf tang can be found on both the pre-war and post war models before the later tang style was adopted by Winchester. As far as best goes, some like either or neither. Some seem to think Phyllis Diller is better looking than Julia Roberts. Whatever floats your boat.

Jim

A pre-64 is about worthless to me.
It falls into the realm of owning a
2003 or 2004 Cobra. The non-supercharged version at half the cost goes fast enough for me.