I just picked up a rem 700 375, not because im a big rem fan but the price was a steal. my question is what is the difference in the extractors and all between the rems and the push feed winchester? people seem to say that they would rather have a win push feed over a remington so what is difference?

Winchester, a more solid action and much stronger and larger extractor.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Winchester, a more solid action and much stronger and larger extractor.

What do your base that statement on...especially the first one?

On the issue of the size of the extractor, are you talking about the portion that actually grabs the case or the whole part?

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
On the issue of the size of the extractor, are you talking about the portion that actually grabs the case or the whole part?

The only broken extractors I have ever seen (on any model rifle) have had a portion, or all of the actual claw (that portion which grabs the case) break.

I don’t have a PF model 70 sitting here so I can’t measure the size of the claw...but I’m betting that it ain’t any bigger than a 700 is. If I’m wrong I’m also betting it won’t be the first (or the last) time!

If I had to choose between a push feed M70 Winchester and a Remington 700, I'd take the 700 hands down, regardless of caliber.

The Winchester PF extractor seems a lot like a a Sako, which is pretty large gives pretty positive extraction. Benchrest shooters are well known to have Sako type extractors installed on Remington actions, due to the high pressures and sometimes sticky cases that come with the sport. I don't really think that this really necessary for a hunting rifle, especially with a cartridge of moderate pressure such as the H&H. Remington 700's are super strong, don't let anyone fool you. I like Winchester CRF's, but Remington has them beat in the breech strength department. I wouldn't worry about your extractor unless you plan on using some REALLY HOT handloads.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Winchester, a more solid action and much stronger and larger extractor.

both, get a caliper! Better safety, better hunting trigger, more area for proper bedding. Anything else?
I have had bedding material seize a remington trigger that would never have affected the Winchester. Would it happen often? It need only happen once and at the wrong time.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I have had bedding material seize a remington trigger that would never have affected the Winchester.

Not sure I understand this statement......could you elaborate?

GV

Originally posted by lb404:

[/QUOTE]... more area for proper bedding.
I have had bedding material seize a remington trigger that would never have affected the Winchester. Would it happen often? It need only happen once and at the wrong time.[/QUOTE]

Excuse me, but, if the bedding material seized a Remington trigger, the rifle was never properly bedded in the first place!

As I just recently mentioned to someone in a PM...of all the complaints I have heard lodged against Remingtons over the years (some justified, others not so), the strength of their receivers and their ease of bedding is certainly not among the things I have heard people complain about.

I’m trying to picture how bedding could lock up a totally inclosed trigger, and I am having trouble picturing that. Even if it was possible, wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume that this condition would have reared its ugly head prior to the hunting trip?

I know that when Remington introduced the model 721/722 in 1948 (which was the same basic design as the later 700’s) Hatcher did an endurance test with a 98 Mauser, a 1903 Springfield, a 1917 Enfield and a 721. The Remington was still going strong after the others had given out. It was Remington, Mauser, Enfield and Springfield...in that order.

There are numerous and valid reasons to choose another brand of rifle, but strength and reliability are not among them, in my opinion.

It seems to me that the loading port is smaller than that of a Remington,and so is the headspace.Can someone with more knowledge say if this is so?If the loading port is smaller that would that make the mod.70 action stiffer?

I don't know how the bedding material got into the trigger group. All I do know is that it did happen. The bedding was done for me by Jack Dever an exellent maker/smith.He told me that when he was preparing the bedding surface some of the fine dust got into the trigger group and locked it up. I don't know much about remmys and don't care to as there is little in that line that I need or want. The remmy is a good action no doubt, each action plays to different folks needs. Have you noticed that even Jarret uses the Winchester action for his line of dangerous game riles? Many others that make DGR'S do likewise. Hell, a black powder single shot can work for most of our hunting. It probably wouldn't be the best choice, however for most of us now. I don't see anyone making after market recoil shims for WINCHESTER a common upgrade for a remmy. Each action has merit and I was voicing an opinion take it or leave it!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lb404:
I don't know how the bedding material got into the trigger group. All I do know is that it did happen. The bedding was done for me by Jack Dever an exellent maker/smith.He told me that when he was preparing the bedding surface some of the fine dust got into the trigger group and locked it up. I don't know much about remmys and don't care to as there is little in that line that I need or want. The remmy is a good action no doubt, each action plays to different folks needs. Have you noticed that even Jarret uses the Winchester action for his line of dangerous game riles? Many others that make DGR'S do likewise. Hell, a black powder single shot can work for most of our hunting. It probably wouldn't be the best choice, however for most of us now. I don't see anyone making after market recoil shims for WINCHESTER a common upgrade for a remmy. Each action has merit and I was voicing an opinion take it or leave it! Wasn't Hatcher using a Winchester rifle most of the time?? I think I read that fact in an earlier post I think.

I would pick virtually any rifle over a Rem 700

quote:

The Winchester PF extractor seems a lot like a a Sako

They are not even close

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Have you noticed that even Jarret uses the Winchester action for his line of dangerous game riles?

The Remington is the weapon of choice for the worlds most dangerous game... And if there is anyone who knows dangerous game, it's the Marines...

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
I would pick virtually any rifle over a Rem 700

As is your choice! But does that mean Remington 700’s are not as “strong†as other brands of rifles?

I’m sure it has happened at some point, but I cannot recall hearing about one single instance where ANY modern bolt action rifle has had a receiver failure. I recall that some Sako’s had a few barrel failures awhile back, but that had nothing to do with the receiver.

quote:

Originally posted by malm:

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Have you noticed that even Jarret uses the Winchester action for his line of dangerous game riles?

The Remington is the weapon of choice for the worlds most dangerous game... And if there is anyone who knows dangerous game, it's the Marines...

NOT EVEN CLOSE; AK47

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:

quote:

Originally posted by malm:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lb404:
Have you noticed that even Jarret uses the Winchester action for his line of dangerous game riles?

The Remington is the weapon of choice for the worlds most dangerous game... And if there is anyone who knows dangerous game, it's the Marines...

NOT EVEN CLOSE; AK47 but that isn't the issue (no pun intended)
Most government systems are by the lowest bid, not a way to perfection. Get back on track.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
I would pick virtually any rifle over a Rem 700

As is your choice! But does that mean Remington 700’s are not as “strong†as other brands of rifles?

I’m sure it has happened at some point, but I cannot recall hearing about one single instance where ANY modern bolt action rifle has had a receiver failure. I recall that some Sako’s had a few barrel failures awhile back, but that had nothing to do with the receiver.

My point exactly, after acknowledging that fact, one has to look at the operating system and I feel that for the average shooter, not some bench stuff where better actions than even a remmy are available, that Winchester has always had simpler more effecient and safer equipment.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lb404:
I don't know how the bedding material got into the trigger group. All I do know is that it did happen. The bedding was done for me by Jack Dever an exellent maker/smith.He told me that when he was preparing the bedding surface some of the fine dust got into the trigger group and locked it up. I don't know much about remmys and don't care to as there is little in that line that I need or want. The remmy is a good action no doubt, each action plays to different folks needs. Have you noticed that even Jarret uses the Winchester action for his line of dangerous game riles? Many others that make DGR'S do likewise. Hell, a black powder single shot can work for most of our hunting. It probably wouldn't be the best choice, however for most of us now. I don't see anyone making after market recoil shims for WINCHESTER a common upgrade for a remmy. Each action has merit and I was voicing an opinion take it or leave it! Wasn't Hatcher using a Winchester rifle most of the time?? I think I read that fact in an earlier post I think.

I don’t recall anyone saying that Winchester didn’t make fine rifles. You stated that Winchester’s were “stronger†than Remington’s and I asked for the basis of that statement...which you have yet to address.

Because a certain famous person prefers a certain brand or model of rifle doesn’t automatically mean that all other rifles are weaker or less reliable.

It isn’t all that difficult to come up with anecdotal instances where a certain brand of rifle has failed. I will guarantee you that someone, somewhere has had a Mauser type extractor that has broken...or a CRF rifle that has failed to pick up and chamber a round.

It just seems a bit bizarre at times that so many people feel the need to trash other rifles in order to validate their own personal preferences.

quote:

Originally posted by Ib404:


My point exactly, after acknowledging that fact, one has to look at the operating system and I feel that for the average shooter, not some bench stuff where better actions than even a remmy are available, that Winchester has always had simpler more effecient and safer equipment.

Well, that pretty much settles the argument once and for all. If YOU say it’s so then it MUST be!

Now.. rather take a howa. They even come as a barreld action.

It has a flat bottom, intregral recoil lug, sako extractor, adjustable trigger, remington mounts fits it, plunger ejektor, one pice bolt.

Its like they took the remington, winchester and sako and mixed them up. Getting something good from everyone. Exept the winchester 3point safty. Wich I like..

It has a safty similar to remington though, only 3 way.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:

quote:

Originally posted by malm:

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Have you noticed that even Jarret uses the Winchester action for his line of dangerous game riles?

The Remington is the weapon of choice for the worlds most dangerous game... And if there is anyone who knows dangerous game, it's the Marines...

NOT EVEN CLOSE; AK47

This thread is entitled Winchester vs Remington. Among other things, you mentioned that Jarret uses the Winchester for his dangerous game rifles and that is fine, but a fair and honest discussion of DGR's, where the topic is "Winchester or Remington", cannot be complete until you look at the record of the two brands mentioned, the Remington is the weapon of choice for hunting the worlds most dangerous game.

so, accordingly, every Marine and GI is now carrying a remmy into battle. That is interesting. As far as Sporting arms go, things are quite different. I know for a fact that none of the sniper rifles are off the shelf remmys. It takes a lot of work to make that remmy into a battle rifle. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should. Lets get back on track. remmys are like mausers in that the basic action can take lot of work to make it be all it can be. The advantage in a mauser is that it will work under any condition, a fact that most current rifles of the various manufacturers have lost sight of. It may be a moot point if most of our rifles end up being made by Sako or CZ in the future.
The original thread was the difference in the two. I prefer the Winchester and Mauser to the remmy and have given sound and undeiable facts supporting my claim as have those that purport the benefit of the remm. Let the guy that asked the question make his own mind up.

If the truth be known, Sako probably makes a better battle/sniper rifle than either but that is another story.

The Army 700’s are totally made by Remington...and the Marine Corps M40’s are factory stock 700 receivers that have been blue-printed by Marine armorers, but neither uses anything but factory Remington parts in the actions. No screwed on bolt handles, no Sako extractors...nada!

The work done on those rifles is to squeeze every drop of accuracy out of them...not to make them function differently when it comes to the mechanics of the action.

The Winchester 70 sniper rifles used by the Corps years ago were also blue-printed and accurized and were not out-of-the-box factory rifles you buy at Wal-Mart or your local gun shop.

Urban legends and anecdotal stories to the contrary, I have still not seen or heard one shred of evidence that shows that a Winchester is stronger or more reliable than a Remington...or visa-versa. When was the last time anyone has heard of either of these rifles blowing-up?

Personal preferences aside, I would certainly not feel the least bit handicapped carrying either of these rifles in either the hunting field or into combat. Both are extremely fine weapons that have been serving reliably in both capacities for longer than most people using them have been alive.

If you prefer one over the other that’s great...but you don’t have to trash the one you don’t prefer by coming up with a bunch of ridiculous statements to try and justify your preference to others.

I think that Rick just ended the argument quite soundly!

We have some of the finest snipers in the world due to the quality of our men and their training. They don't however have the finest sniper rifle in the world. In almost every situation where there has been a true choice unaffected by political "not made here" syndrome, when given a choice between a Remington M-40, Accuracy International, or a Sako TRG almost all have chosen either the AI or the Sako. Just do some research and you'll see that this is a fact.
The disadvantages of a Remington as a hunting rifle -especially in a dangerous game rifle is that the extractor engages a relatively small part of the cartridge rim. The mauser claw grabs a much larger portion of the rim. If you are using a steel cartridge the Remington is as strong or stronger the problem is that it grabs a smaller portion of relatively small portion of brass. The ejector is also prone to getting brass shavings stuck in it and not funtioning - I've had a couple 700's do this to me.
The Remington trigger is also prone to freeze-up in really wet weather and much more prone to jam or malfuntion due to sand, grime, WD-40 etc. than is the Winchester trigger.
The Winchester saftey is also superior in that it actually blocks the firing pin itself and not just the sear. A Remington is much more likely to fire with the safety on than a Winchester M-70.
Of course nothing is perfect and Remingtons are used all over the world with great success in hunting, it's just the in my and a great many others well founded opinions as a hunting rifle the Winchester is better. Just because a chevy gets there and does the job doesn't mean a Cadillac isn't better........................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
I think that Rick just ended the argument quite soundly!

Geez, usually I’m far better at starting arguments than I am at finishing them!

It just always amuses me when guys have to cut-down anything and everything that doesn’t fit into their own little world of personal choices...which when you get down to it is all that these little bickering matches are truly about.

Nothing has really been said.

STOP!!!!! This discussion will continue as an argument forever! Very few of us are qualified to
do objective failure analysis and thus we are just spouting our opinions. How about a calm, factual
discussion or no discussion at all. Agree to disagree and go shoot something with your favorite rifle.
A Winchester, Remington, Savage, Ruger, Sako, CZ, or most other bold action rifle that is properly
set up and maintained will last several life times of hunting. Pick your favorite and use it.

quote:

Originally posted by Old Elk Hunter:
STOP!!!!! This discussion will continue as an argument forever! Very few of us are qualified to
do objective failure analysis and thus we are just spouting our opinions. How about a calm, factual
discussion or no discussion at all. Agree to disagree and go shoot something with your favorite rifle.
A Winchester, Remington, Savage, Ruger, Sako, CZ, or most other bold action rifle that is properly
set up and maintained will last several life times of hunting. Pick your favorite and use it.

Sure, inject some sanity into the discussion will you???

You know one of the greatest things about this web site is that you only have to look at things that you click on and scroll to. If the topic doesn’t interest you, DONâ€T CLICK ON IT!

Yeah,...a pissing match at best. Ifin ya arent gonna give the rem700 it's due respect, you are either incredibly dumb or simply a fan of some other company who can't see past that.

You can argue benchrest all you want, but the customs will be a while making the same number of records as the rem 700. If you want to hunt dangerous game,..the who cares. The shots are close. Of course you want a CRF, but accuracy concerns at that range are a mute point.

Until the nations snipers are using the win 70 action, this is pure fodder.

I have a win70 action that after gunsmithing is super accurate, but the gunsmith bill was more than a rem700 for the same work.

When we talk about Remington actions?.....are we talking about one with or without a bolt handle?

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
... When was the last time anyone has heard of either of these rifles blowing-up?...

Pull out your PO Ackley Handbook For Shooters & Reloaders Volume II and flip over to page 36. You will find a blown-up M70 receiver stating, "Analysis showed an excessive amount of impurities (in the Receiver steel)... To the best of my knowledge, I've yet to find where anyone can tell me any of the bad Pre-64s were ever Recalled.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
... Have you noticed that even Jarret uses the Winchester action for his line of dangerous game riles?...

Perhaps things have changed, but the Jarrett Shop at one time would make a DGR on a M700 as well as their own action too.

Since a DGR is typically used up close, the M70 should do just fine - as long as you don't loose your eyesight to a blown primer when the Elephant, Buff, Bear, Cow, whatever - is in full stride and closing.

Hey Hot Core, got any other books? How about real life experience?

I don't prefer model 70s for DG because of their larger extractor - irrelevant as far as I am concerned. The only real difference is the feeding. Short stroking is my main concern, which, IMHO, is the only meaningful advantage of a CRF over a PF (safeties aside). That being said, most factory CRFs need some careful feeding work to function perfectly...

I'll take a stab at this one:

If you occasionally get to hunt dangerous game, I would say the Remington and Winchester PF both equal a dead animal. The fact you bought a .375 generally means you are contemplating DG. If you got a good deal, I would never look back.

If you hunt Dangerous game often or hunt non dangerous game where Dangerous game hides, I would error on the side of CRF. Why you say, because when it hits the fan it is one less thing to worry about.