quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Winchester, a more solid action and much stronger and larger extractor.

Rick, this was my original post. The rest came after you expanded the various issues. Read it again. It is true. 100% fact. Like it or leave it but you can not change that fact. One is not necessarily better than the other. I feel real Winchesters start with the pre-64 line and ended with the PTF and started up again with the classics. Through all of the changes at Winchester they stayed with the two main reasons to own that rifle; the simple but extrremely accurate and rugged trigger, and the undeniably best safety for a hunting rifle.

My two loves in rifles are Orberndorf Mausers along with a smattering of othersa, and The Pre-64 Model 70 Winchester. Even with that most of my Mausers have a two or three position safety and a reworked military trigger whic is at least as good as a Winchester but takes TLC to make it right. Both the Winchester and the Mauser triggers are the simplest and most rugged triggers ever made. That's a fact Jack!!

!b404,

I only asked you on what you were basing your opinion that Winchester 70’s were more solid and that PF model 70’s had a much stronger and larger extractor than a Remington 700.

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
I would pick virtually any rifle over a Rem 700

I salute you and your intellect, Major!

Having worked w/ several factory rifles of each make, I would have to say I prefer the 700 mainly because of the safety, accuracy in it's factory form, and trigger. While both the trigger on the model 70 and the 700 are very easy to adjust, The last 2 Model 70s I worked on had very poor quality steel in the trigger assembly components, very soft. I find the 700s too be more accurate in their factory offerings. Just a personal opinion but, the safety on the Model 70s is absolutely ridiculous from a hunting rifle stand point. The Model 700 safety is much more user friendly as well as much quieter and requires much less movement to disengage which, can be critical for many hunters.

I'll also admit that I don't see hardly any of the Model 70s while at the range. All of the very serious hunters, shooters, and reloaders that show bring a rack full of 700s. Even the customs that show are wearing a 700 action. May just be this neck of the woods but, the 700s are quite a bit more popular.

Another thing that just turns me from Win 70s is some of the crap they've put out rescently. I was at the shop just the other day and picked up a new M70 Coyote. I just don't really know what to say about it, when I bolted it it felt like someone had dumped sand in the action. I didn't get far past that as I quickly placed it back in the rack.

I'd say Wins QC has definitely lowered in the past few years.

Reloader

I haveto agree with the "sand in the action" comment by Reloader. I think that may very well be an example of why Winchester pulled the plug on production. they were having problems putting out a consistently well made action. Hopefully somebody buys them and remedies that.

The worst thing that ever happened to the Winchester 70’s was the introduction of the Remington 700. The original model 70’s were a great rifle but in order to compete in the marketplace they bastardized them into a combination of a 700 and 70...and didn’t do a real good job of it. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the original design.

Then years later they saw the error of their ways and reintroduced the “classic†but their quality control went right in the toilet...as has Remington‘s over the years.

It is rare to find either a Winchester or a Remington made nowadays that doesn’t need some work before it will function properly.

I also hope some company picks up the Winchester line and starts building rifles of the quality they have been famous for in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:


Then years later they saw the error of their ways and reintroduced the “classic†but their quality control went right in the toilet...as has Remington‘s over the years.

It is rare to find either a Winchester or a Remington made nowadays that doesn’t need some work before it will function properly.

Good points Rick. Conventional Wisdom is that competition improves the breed. Here is an example where competition cheapened and made both 70's and 700's worse. There are much better made versions of both such as Hein's and Nesika's for 70's and 700's respectively, but they aren't cheap though probably worth it.............DJ

In my opinion anyone who buys a factory made rifle expecting it to be in tip top shape, or the way they were made 50 years ago is foolish. That goes for all of the mass produced factory rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
I'll take that as a compliment HC. As has been stated, Belk could arguably be the best metalsmith to ever work on a rifle. He aint stupid, and unfortunately you continually prove that you are. If not stupid then at the very least psychotic.

What does your PO Ackley book have to say about that?

Chuck

Ouch,,,,,that's gonna leave a mark

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
!b404,

I only asked you on what you were basing your opinion that Winchester 70’s were more solid and that PF model 70’s had a much stronger and larger extractor than a Remington 700.

forged steel receiver, larger extractor, more bedding area with right angles. It doesn't get simpler than that.
This is not a blow up test strength

square shooter,

Sorry brother but the bedding area on a model 70 is smaller than on a model 700. If you don’t choose to believe me measure it yourself. Right angles, other than on the recoil lug, have very little to do with bedding efficiency. By the way, the recoil lug on a 700 also has more surface area than does a model 70, and the Remington recoil lug’s position has a more stabilizing effect because it is farther forward from the front action screw than the one on a model 70 is. If you will notice, as I stated before, the model 70 integral lug prevents close to one-third of the front receiver ring from being supported by the bedding, whereas the entire front ring on a model 700 is supported.

Why do you assume that a forged receiver is stronger than one machined from a piece of solid steel?

As far as the extractor is concerned, are you talking about a PF model 70 extractor or a CRF extractor...they are not the same size you know?

quote:

Originally posted by iwzbeeman:
Belk is a whore. I don't care if he is the best metalsmith in the world, he sold out for a handful of silver.

Please explain

Do Remington 700's come with a cleaning rod, or do you have to supply one too extract cases? It's a common scene whenever 700's are at the range As I type this I'm watching the show "Shooters" it's on the outdoor channel. The only rifle malfunctions were chronic jams of the 700's. You can keep the 700's, because it's the worst rifle design I've ever seen, I would rather have a Carcano, I've never seen one of them malfuction!

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
Do Remington 700's come with a cleaning rod, or do you have to supply one too extract cases? It's a common scene whenever 700's are at the range As I type this I'm watching the show "Shooters" it's on the outdoor channel. The only rifle malfunctions were chronic jams of the 700's. You can keep the 700's, because it's the worst rifle design I've ever seen, I would rather have a Carcano, I've never seen one of them malfuction!

Neither did Kennedy~! Sorry couldn't help it. I am not prone to smart ass remarks but this one was too much of a cherry to let go of..