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I've said this before as I will now. Any comparison between sniping a human and hunting DG is meaningless. As an aside to the stiffness question. A few years ago Jack Belk put up some comparative stiffness numbers between the Rem 700 And M70. The M70 was actually quite a bit stiffer than the M700. I'll see if I still have that data or can find it here. Staurt Otteson in his book, The Bolt Action, eludes to the same fact by stating the M70 is one of the stiffest receivers ever designed. | |||
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Read the above quote. The original question was about push feed Wins vs push feed Rems. Now we're all debating about CRF's, DGR's snipers, and action stiffness and strength. As long as we're into the action stiffness, what works best for you guy's? Viagra, Levitra or Cialis? Ain't this just so much fun!  | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by craigster: As long as we're into the action stiffness, what works best for you guy's? QUOTE] A nice brunette the likes of Emmanuelle Vaugier works fine for me...  | |||
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Hey if we can't argue the fine points of our favorite rifles here, where can we? ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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Come to think of it didn’t Hatcher refer to his proof loads as “blue pills?†When did “stiffness†and “strength†become synonymous...in terms of rifles that is!  | |||
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For those of you that don't know it, belk works for the Ultra-Liberal, Radical-Leftists anytime they extend him a few dollars. His actual knowledge concerning ANY Engineering Discipline is strictly "uneducated guessing" which has proven to be wrong on a consistant basis. Look closely at what he posts and those of you who are educated with the proper Engineering background will see the errors quickly. The problem becomes that other unknowledgeable people begin believing his foolishness and begin making decisions and comments based on faulty input. | |||
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between push feed m70's and m700's i've had exactly one of each give extraction problems. that's a tie except the number of pushfeed m70's i've owned is abt triple the # of m700's. as to action stiffness i could crank out the numbers if i wanted to but i don't have to. between a cylinder which is the m700 rcvr and a flat bottomed with square sides below woodline m70 it's intuitive which is stiffer. the only shape worse in bending than a cylinder is a flat plate, thin in the direction of bending of course. now the question is, in practical field rifles how much difference does that make. probably none anyone could detect outside of benchrest competition if then on a good day. my biggest objection to the m700 is it's built cheap. there's no getting around this. that separate recoil lug and round bar stock receiver were not used because they're better. it was designed that way to save money. does it work? sure. but it's still cheap construction methods and that's why they did it. per rules book on the m70, the post 64 action is forged. i'll take forging over round bar stock any day and pay the difference. | |||
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Now isn't that the pot calling the kettle black. | |||
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With that statement the "argument" should end right here but we all know that it won't. It's just like the Ackley, Non Ackley discussion that pops up periodically. It won't die until everybody is done trashing the other guy's opinion. I would be very happy owning a Winchester or a Remington as long as it's chambered for an AI cartridge. 99% of the democrats give the rest a bad name. "O" = zero NRA life member | |||
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It was just a matter of time before someone started this line of crap again. 99% of the democrats give the rest a bad name. "O" = zero NRA life member | |||
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Grizzinator, Most of the comments about a PF M70 and a 700 don't apply to 375 H&H's that might be used for dangerous game. For instance some target shooters prefer the M70 PF's over the 700's due to the slightly longer bolt on the M70. The M70's bolt is brazed on too like the 700 but it's keyed in and they don't break off as much. The thing to do with that rifle is not to spend much money on it. If it has a pad on it now and it fits you with your hunting coat on then keep it. But to spend money on a push feed rifle in 375 H&H is like trying to make a truck out of a VW beetle. There is no end to this. For instance SAKO is still trying to sell their actions as DGR rifles and some will buy them as now they have a partial CRF version or have had one but are now calling it a M85. A true CRF would make a more reliable bolt action sniper rifle as well. The arguments that just because the USA military uses it that it's ok don't wash. Join the NRA | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Savage99: A true CRF would make a more reliable bolt action sniper rifle as well. Why? 99% of the democrats give the rest a bad name. "O" = zero NRA life member | |||
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Willmckee pretty much nailed my thoughts on the 700 in that one paragraph. I really dislike the recoil lug setup on the remington. In my experience, remington generally are quite accurate out of the box, but I just don't like how they are designed Also, for the snipers using the 700, as far as I know the government operates on system where the lowest bidder gets the contract. | |||
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American Rifleman had an article about what the marines did to the Model 700 and I don't remember it all. But they changed the bottome metal, and put in 8-40 screws for the scope mount. Probably didn't buy them at Gander Mountain either. I have had a remington model 7 that I liked. someone had put on a timmy trigger, and it was sweet. But I never could get it to feed right. It was a 7mm-08 from probably the first 2 or three years of production. I don't particurally like the new ones, except the laminated model, and I don't see that one in the new catalog. Some of the ones I have looked at lately seem to have bolt handles that are barely on. Of course that could be fixed. I have a model 70 compact in 7mm-08 that I like a lot that I have had for about 10 years (I think). If my son ever returns it I might hunt with it | |||
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Mike, The Marine armorers at Quantico take stock Remington 700 receivers and blue-print them (square everything up). The Receivers are clip-slotted, the mag boxes and recoil lug are tig welded (tacked) to the receivers. They install SS match quality barrels (they have used Atkinson, Hart, Schneider, and others over the years) and they install DD Ross bottom metal and lugged Badger bases and Badger rings. They use Remington triggers that they also blue-print, and McMillan stocks. Basically what they do is exactly what any top notch smith does when building a rifle for long range accuracy. Going all the way back to WWII and the Springfield 1903’s and 8x Unertl’s, the Marines have built their own sniper rifles “in houseâ€, and have contracted with scope manufacturers to build the sniper scopes (to their specs) and have not relied on the DOD or the Pentagon to “procure†them, or the Army to get around to “handing some down†to the Corps. They use what they have found to be the BEST AVAILABLE rifles and equipment for the job, and if they find anything lacking they replace it with what is available or they contract with a company to build them what they need to assure that the Marine snipers have the most accurate and reliable weapon for the job at hand. The fact that they went to companies other than Remington for barrels, bottom metal and stocks proves to me that they are not shy or beholding to anyone other than their fellow Marines who they build these rifles for. If there was a better rifle action or better parts and equipment they would use them. There is no way in hell that they would ever field a rifle that was less than reliable in feeding, extracting and ejecting rounds...or one that had a weak receiver. | |||
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Savage99. It is not accurate to say the Winchester M70 bolt handle is brazed on like the M700's. It in pressed onto a splined section at the tail of the bolt for a very heavy interference joint. But it is indeed brazed as a finishing touch after this process with a thin copper washer placed between the bolt handle and bolt body. Hotcore, I was wondering when you would pipe up since I mentioned Belk. He posted numbers that were factual data from independent testing. Not conjecture. You have a problem with him; he also may be one of the best metalsmiths ever in the trade. If you have that much of a problem with him, find his info, give him a call and hash it out. What personal dealing,if any, have you had with him? As for my qualifications I am degreed in Biology and Chemistry from Regis University in Colorado. Currently I'm in the home stretch of an Electrical and Mechanical engineering degree at Colorado School of Mines. So I think I may be modestly qualified to comment on such matters. Do you have an engineering background???... | |||
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Thanks Savage99,and willmckee I found your input helpfull. | |||
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no one that i've noticed said the 700's rcvr is weak. de haas describes dealing w/ case failures in m700's in which the bbl had to be unscrewed to get the bolt unfrozen and the extruded brass rmvd from the extractor groove in the bolt face. i did however say it was less stiff (not that it was weak, 2 different things) and sorry, but it is. that's just math and there's no getting around it. if you reread my posts, i also said it likely wasn't a difference anyone could even take advantage of. you're missing the premise; just because something works and works reliably does not mean there's not something better. if something doesn't fail there's no need to replace it but that does not mean there's not a better design. and i bet if you go far enough back in their procurement process there was a time when there was a contract competition and a contract award and a budget. $$ come into it somewhere. i'm close enough to dod procurement to know what they look for: satisfy requirements at least cost. that does not always imply "best design". it almost never implies best design in fact. it implies best design that does the job for the least money. | |||
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willmckee, Perhaps you are misunderstanding what I have said also. I was originally responding to the statement that Wichester 70’s had a stronger receiver than did Remington 700’s...and I asked for some evidence of that. By stating that the model 70 was “stronger: that implies that the 700 is “weakerâ€...and I have never seen or heard any evidence of that. As you have noted, stiffness and strength do not always go hand and hand. The DOD is not a part of Marine Corps procurement for M40 sniper rifles that I am aware of, and never has been. If dollars and cents was the primary factor the Corps would have gone with accurized M14’s that could have been built from existing stock piles of those rifles that were already bought and paid for years before. Match grade M14’s will shoot right along side with just about any rifle out there on man sized targets. Also, if dollars and cents were the deciding factor then the Corps would buy the complete rifles from Remington like the Army does and not waste time and money building them from scratch. There will come a day, I’m sure, when those M40’s will be sporting some other brand of receiver...but that will only come when the Corps has proof that the new product is better than what they are now using, and in 40 years that ain’t happened yet. | |||
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square shooter | |||
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So where is the evidence that flat bottomed receivers provide a better and larger bedding surface than round ones do? | |||
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Yes David I do - unlike belk. I've obviously not read all his posts over the years and in fact, that may be partially true. That is the bad thing about it. He might provide something he read that is accurate and then the very next thing might be totally wrong because he is guessing. When the proper questions are asked, it pins him in a corner where he tends to guess and quite often he guesses incorrectly. True. I have a problem with anyone intentionally misleading people about firearms that just don't know any better. And I also am not fond of people who "work against" the firearms industry. I wouldn't know anything about his hacksaw jobs. When I need any advice from you concerning belk, I'll ask for it. Since you are not in my Chain of Command, I'll let you guess what you can do with it. Nun'ya. It doesn't matter what they are. If you think belk knows anything worthwhile about firearms, that tells me all I really need to know about your qualifications. --- belk's actual firearm knowledge is about at the same level as chucky. | |||
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real simple even for you! Integral action mounted recoil lug, square corners cant rotate like a cylender. PROVE me wrong. square shooter | |||
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I'll take that as a compliment HC. As has been stated, Belk could arguably be the best metalsmith to ever work on a rifle. He aint stupid, and unfortunately you continually prove that you are. If not stupid then at the very least psychotic. What does your PO Ackley book have to say about that? Chuck | |||
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I assume you meant cylinder and not cylender...but I’m guilty of misspelling words at times also! I’m having trouble keeping up with the changing statements and thought process. You started by saying that PF Winchester 70’s were stronger and had a much larger and stronger extractors than Remington 700’s. Then you moved to something about bedding dust jamming Remington triggers (which I still haven’t figured out), then you switched to flat bottom vs round bottom as the best bedding surface...and now you’re off on square recoil lugs can’t rotate????? If you have ever noticed the actual area that gets vertical support from the bedding under the front ring of a Winchester 70 does not extend the full length of the front ring since a good portion of that area is taken up by that integral recoil lug and therefore only provides a vertical surface that gives no vertical support under that area. You will also notice that the tang area on a model 70 is smaller than that on a 700 and also has vertical portions or steps that cannot provide any vertical support from the bedding material. Bottom line...the surface area of the receiver that mates with the bedding material and that can vertically support the receiver in the stock is larger on a 700 than it is on a model 70. | |||
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Since the original topic was Rem vs Win I can offer an opinion. After owning various Rem 700's, Model 7's and 600's since the middle 70's I simply gave up. I suffered to many trigger freeze ups while hunting in temperatures 25F to freezing. I only have 2 Remingtons left now and have replaced them all with W70's, Rugers, and MRC due in shorty. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I posted this on another forum awhile back and think it's kinda funny but illistrates a point. "This morning I woke up rolled over and looked at the Winchester propped up in the corner. I said to myself, self, it's time for a change. I want to give old reliable a makeover. So I called up the local gunsmith to place an order. I explained to said Smith that I would be bringing in my CRF Winchester and sent him a letter asking if he would make these changes: -Replace Winchester safety with one of Remington style, as I'm not coordinated enough to manipulate that three position thing. -While you're at it replace the trigger with something that is composed of a bunch of stamped sheet metal as the stock Winchester one looks way to simple. (as a bonus, with this safety and trigger I have two ways to discharge the firearm). -Please grind off the integral recoil lug and replace it with something that resembles a washer. I understand alot of gunsmiths can't wrap their heads around bedding the Winchester arrangement. -Please modify the bolt/firing pin assembly as shoelaces are expensive and need more than one job to justify their existance. -While your at it, why don't you glue on a new, ugly flat, bolt handle. Thanks, Chuck PS I'm sending in my Sako as well to have a Remington extractor installed." | |||
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Finally...someone with a logical and valid argument!!! I can see, and it is logical, that an enclosed trigger assembly like that on a 700 could possibly be more prone to “freezing-up†or “gunking-up†than a more open system like that on a model 70. Not sure how often that might happen...but it is nonetheless a good and valid argument with first hand knowledge by the person making the statement. | |||
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Are you serious? You can't be seriuos. | |||
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Belk is a whore. I don't care if he is the best metalsmith in the world, he sold out for a handful of silver. | |||
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Belks character aside................... I didn't say that he was, I said argueably. And yes I was serious. Chuck | |||
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Rick, It happened way to many times to me or to my son who hunts with me. It is costing me a fortune to switch out my rifles and my sons but I simply cant risk a frozen trigger while hunting up here in Alaska. On our last trip to Kodiak for a deer hunt my son's SPS would be frozen every morning when we woke up. I would pour a little "heet" on it and everything would be fine. Why did I even carry the "heet"? Because I knew from previous experience in wet, subfreezing temperatures the Remington would most likely freeze. But it was in the back of my mind all day long that it could freeze again. Not a comfortable feeling when we were seeing fresh brown bear tracks every day and carrying loads of meat on our backs. If I lived in the lower 48 where I was hunting in warmer temperatures I would have Remingtons again. But for now they are history. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Snowwolf, I have absolutely no argument with your views because, as I said, they are logical, and they make perfect sense. | |||
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I don't know much about metal work but had some work done on some projects here and there spend a few thousand dollars on metal work of all kinds.What I do know is that bending metal cost me a fortune.I am told a big machine is required to bend metal of the thickness I needed bent.That was 3/8" or 1/2" of metal the machine that I saw bending it was enormous and was told cost a fortune to maintain.I bet it needed someone skilled to use it.When something rigid is neede square is the way to go.A good example would be a support beam or angled metal pieces used in building consruction supporting cement floors etc...In response to a comment made above on less bedding area on the mod.70 action,I don't believe it is the stock that plays a big role in accuracy.It's more of the receivers shape alone and not shaped that way for bedding purposes.About triggers,I have not yet owned a Remington with a consistant trigger pull and I own 4.Both Winchesters I own surpass Remington on this.The firing pin springs on Remingtons are really lousy.You could hear and feel them striking the back of dummy rounds with different energy with each trigger pull. | |||
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shootaway, Bedding is intended to give the barreled action a good, solid platform, and to return the barreled action to the same spot shot after shot. The larger the bedding area the better this task is accomplished. A larger bedding area is also essential when free floating a heavy barrel. As far as trigger pulls are concerned, just about all factory rifles come with terrible trigger pulls. I have several 700’s with tuned factory triggers, and a few with Timney triggers, that are all as consistent and clean breaking as any rifle I have ever owned. I’m not sure what your square vs round metal bending story has to do with rifles though. Look at the vast majority of BR actions used over the last 25 years or so and see what shape their receivers are. Up until fairly recently Remington 700 and 40X actions dominated BR shooting...and most all of the BAT models dominating todays matches are round not flat bottomed. Nothing I have said is meant to infer that Winchester 70’s were not, and are not, extremely fine and reliable rifles that will serve their owners well for a lifetime...after all they have been doing just that for an awfully long time now, as have Remingtons, Savages, Brownings and any number of other rifles out there. | |||
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I thought the mod 70 action required metal bending? Does it? I'll have to take another look at it I guess. | |||
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Wow, funny how a simple question can turn into such a $h!t storm. I have a custom built on a 700 action, with a Sako extractor, and a trigger job. That action is as smooth as sliding two wet ice cubes together, and the trigger is so good I could never see enough improvment in my custom triggers to warrant changing it. It has never given me any trouble or failed to feed. I'm having it rebuilt into a .358 STA to take to Alaska. Quite simply, I trust this gun based on 32 years of use and thousands of rounds fired through it's two barrels. When it comes home again it will be wearing a 3-position saftey. I never had any problems with the original saftey, but I do prefer the 3-positon on my Kimbers. SNOWWOLFE, have you tried any aftermarket triggers to see if the freezing issue might be resolved? Just curious. | |||
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I had a canjar once on a rebarreled 700 and it froze also. It is the generic design that is flawed. During wet weather the water enters in from the top of the action and the sides of the trigger hold in the moisture. You can degrease to your hearts content before hunting but it has nothing to do with the trigger freezing in position. I am not an expert but it seems to me there are just to many pieces to close together. Trust me that I am not the only person who experienced this. There was an entire thread recently on it on 24 hour Campfire. I would not put a jewell trigger on a W70 for the same reason. It is bascially an enclosed system. I wished it didnt happen as I love my Remmies but I can no longer trust them. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Snowwolfe,are you sure about that?Do you keep your rifle out in the cold for a long time?That has never happened to me,and I would target practice in very cold temperatures.By the way,where's Tom Ga Hunter? What's going on with the Winchester thing ,are we buying or what?Have you done any contacting?Got any people together? Your proposition was the best thing I have heard in years.You are a champ. | |||
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Not to answer for Snowwolfe (well ok, I am), but he lives in Eagle River, Alaska. I used to live a few miles north of there in Palmer, Alaska. It does get wet up there, and cold for a few days a year, anyway. lawndart  | |||
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