Matt,
While preheat treated 4140 is a suitable material for bolt actions there are a couple of potential problems which should be addressed.
If the bolt and receiver are of the same approximate hardness and of the same material galling of the locking lus and seat is always possible. As well, it is possible to end up with an action which is "sticky". Surface finsh has little effect on this.
Also with the preheat treated material, given the size of material you wil be working with there is often a significant difference in hardness as you progress toward the center of the material. In some respects the use of tubing is better than solid stock although a little pricey in small lots.
The problem of distortion as a result of machining is another problem although, given the hardness figures you mentioned, this steel may be well stress relieved.
I still think you should rethink that front guard screw location. The screw location has always been a drawback on the Sako action when using them for a match rifle action and is on others as well. Moving the location of the screw helped to establish a stable bedding surface. However, it's your action! Regards, Bill

Thanks for your explaination, Matt.

Hugh.

Matt, as an extention on my former post I'll explain my intentions,I'm not planning to produce actions,not alowed to do so,just intend to see if my "brainchild" could work,and to see if I'm able to make one.I have acces to several turning,milling and drilling machines as well as grinders and sanders.So I think it should be possible to make one,also able to use some heat treatment equipment(electrical oven),that is wy I'm so curious about the hardness of the coponents,I have it somewhere in a book but can't find it right now,I believed it to be ~35 C for the receiver and ~40 to ~45 C for the bolt,but not sure about it.Thanks anyways for your help and again:succes with your action.

Hugh.

Matt, add one more lefty-shooter who's itching to get his hands on one of these rifles. Stainless, please, it's wet around here.

And I've got plans for long and magnum length actions as well.

Thanks for the info!

[ 09-07-2002, 02:55: Message edited by: Whitehurst ]

Been in and out traveling. Just catching up on posts as time allows. After reading this post, I'm all excited also, can hardly wait to see one. Maybe pick one for a Christmas present to myself. That is, if there are any left. Judging from the tone of these posts, that may be an issue.

Just read the first few posts...

Were these ever produced?

Cheers,
CL

No, say's he's still working on them though. No release date that I know of.

Terry

Yep, see this recent thread.

Any chance they can be had with the bolt and port on opposite sides, like Nesika Bay can do if someone wants it?

My only change would be to not use a 3 position saftey.

The easiest safety to manipulate is a shotgun style tang safety

I'll add my .02 if I may....

If I was to make actions, the receiver would be made from prehardened 4140 Rc 36-40 or ETD 150 or ETD 180. Absolutely avoid any heat treating after the finish machining.

The latter two materials are merely coldworked 4140 to 150,000 and 180,000 PSI tensile respectively. Even prehardened 4140 does not exhibit this tensile and these steels are nearly indestructible yet are elastic to disallow the possible grenading folks seem so concerned about.

There's no need to forge as these materials are enormously strong as is and the forging process of bending the grain for extra strength is simply unnecessary. Forging also creates potential decarb and scale issues that are a mess to deal with. As to the revoval of excess machinging due to forging the use of modern indexible carbides makes this benefit a very small one indeed.

I'd thread mill the barrel threads in the action and in this way all barrels can be prethreaded and chambered without the necessary fitting. It also guarantees the thread pitch diameter is perfectly square to the face of the receiver ring.

If any of this helps I'm happy to add it

Matt,

I am impressed, the ultimate enhancement of the Win pre 64 and quality of Hartmann & Weiss.
Exactly what we need; Made in the USA. I am on your list.

Congratulations and success,

Roland

Matt, the new actions sound really great, I'll be checking you website to try and order a couple with integral talley bases! I am a detachable box mag fan, so since you asked, I would love to see a detachable mag option. (I'd buy several spares per action!!!) I have been told there are a fair amount of challenges in offering detachable mags, but in looking at SAKO's, Sauers and Brownings, I just don't see the big deal. I'm probably missing something, but all my box mag actions feed great and don't seem overly complex.

Thanks for your communication on the new actions, it is informative and exciting!

Regards--Don

Here is a review of some competition for Williams so as one can guess their market niche.

Winchester: Good design but gone South. Don't care.
Remingtion: Old economy design but gone South. Don't care.
Savage: Economy design. No eye appeal. They care.
Weatherby: Heavy non CRF design. I am not interested.
Howa: Made in Japan. That eliminates them for me.
Kimber: Lightweight modern CRF design. They care.
MRC: Heavy design. Something is missing.
Military Mausers: Too expensive. I am not that interested.
Factory Mausers: Some interesting old guns floating around.
Bat etc: Not sure Williams will compete here.

Williams: Niche has to be the hassle factor. If it's made well and works well they will sell by word of mouth.

I feel this tread should come up again.. the williams action could be something. If it ever happens/happend??

Anybody know?

There really isn't a need for another M70 style action. A success store could be written with a reasonably priced Remington style action.

There is always a need for a quality action at the right price. I don't know if Matt is going to pull this one off, or if he does what price he is intending to sell at??
- mike

Just curious if Matt & Co. could give us an update on this particular action and when it will be available for sale.

Best,

w

How about "don't hold your breath."

Chic:

I presume from your response that you have an insight that you wish to share regarding the status...

W

I do not know when this thread was started but the first time I heard about it was about 4 years ago. I have not heard any of any progress since the beginning. I offered to let Matt display the action on my booth in Reno at that time and was told it would not be ready until later in the spring. That is what prompted my comment.

Matt:

Your turn-can you please advise regarding the status. I think it imperative that people know the status of this project. There are people who believe in you and your products. I have purchased your products and can attest to their quality. I think people would like to know.

Thank you kindly.

Best,

WHM7753

Triggerguard,

Thank you for the update, but how is this any different from the wff Hein action?

Personally, for building a high dollar custom gun I want a true Mauser, which makes both the newly-announced Williams action and the wff Hein action somewhat undesirable IMO.

Good luck, however.

500gns,

I agree,when it comes to high end blued/walnut rifles an m70 or anything alike, is like a woman you like to hold and flirt with for a while. Whereas with an M98,it is the one you want to take to bed, make love to and spend the rest of your life with.

I had look at the Hein M70 type actions in Reno. I found the reciever barrel thread area lacking somewhat.By my standards,it was Rough.That is totally unacceptable to me for a custom action, considering that one pays the extra for a custom action for it to be refined and finnished. Did not notice the same problem with Granite mausers or Hartmann Weiss. Will be interesting to see what williams produces for the money.

BTT

Matt, you posted first that you were going to EDM the raceways. I noticed that not too long ago you were setting up the shaper to do the raceways. Are you going to EDM or broach them? Butch

quote:

Originally posted by triggerguard1:
Hello Everyone,<br /><br />I've done a little posting here in the last few days and have been extremely impressed by the amount of knowledgeable and interesting members that frequent this site. I'm glad I found this place. <br />My father and I are in the process of developing a new bolt-action reciever that I think should prove to be quite appealing for the majority of this board. We would like to hear from you all about ideas, comments, and or suggestions regarding this project. To cut to the chase I will present to you a list of the features that are action will have.<br /><br />1)100% CNC Machined from solid barstock<br />2)Wire EDM'd raceways<br />3)Controlled Round Feeding<br />4)3-position safety with addition of gas flange<br />5)Machined steel One-Piece Bottom Metal<br />6)Machined Follower<br />7)Customers choice of either Dave Talley or Weaver-style bases machined integral with the receiver.<br />8)Threads, Locking Abutments, Bore and bases will be machined at the same time ensuring optimum accuracy<br />9) No blueprinting will be required, in fact it would be reccomended not to do so for fear of inaccurizing the premachined parts.<br />10)This action will use the Winchester Model 70 breaching system as well as the 70 stock.<br />11)The recoil lug will be integral as well as being drafted.<br />12)The bottom of the receiver will be widened for extended bedding surface and will be flat in one plane from the rear tang to the rear of the recoil lug. This will eliminate the step in the receiver that is seen on the Winchester.<br />13)The customer will have their choice of either the Winchester-style trigger that we will produce that has been wire EDM'd and precision machined, or an adjustable style, such as the Remington. This trigger we will also make. The housing will be machined from 304 stainless and composed of wire EDM'd components. The adjustments will be made just as they are on the Remington-style triggers.<br />14)Finally, the prices for our first action that will begin with the short-action will start at $825.00 dealer cost.<br /><br />We expect to be into production by December, hopefully before Christmas. We will be offering 4 different action lengths; The short mentioned above, long-action(30-06), extra-long(416 Rigby), and the ultra-short(.223). <br />The Rigby length action will have a .750 diameter bolt and larger reciever ring.<br />The ultra-short will be around a .625 diameter bolt and smaller receiver ring.<br /><br />We look forward to hearing from all of the board members about this new action and will be taking all suggestions posted into consideration while in the process of designing it. Thank you for your time, as it is much appreciated.<br /><br /> <a href="http://www.williamsfirearms.com" target="_blank">williamsfirearms.com</a> <br /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Enough already! I want to see a picture of the action. When is the release date?

quote:

Originally posted by Don Slater:

Enough already! I want to see a picture of the action. When is the release date?

It will be unveiled at the Shot Show in February...

Matt,

No preview/ trailer for us?

Best wishes and advance congratulations!

I feel hurt. Us guys on AR ought to be more important than the "Shot Show".

Shot Show starts in January next year, most likely I'll be there and stop by to check it out!

quote:

Originally posted by loboga:
Shot Show starts in January next year, most likely I'll be there and stop by to check it out!

The show is from February 9th-12th at the Las Vegas Convention Center.

We'll probably drum up some preliminary shots to post on our website, AR, and 24hourcampfire before we leave.

triggerguard: and after shotshow, when will these go into production?

I want one for a 416 Rigby, maybe a 30-06 as well.

Guys, with all due respect for what Matt and his company is achieving, don't get too exited just yet. That will inevitably lead to disappointment and frustration.

Presenting one (or more) actions at the Shot Show, does not signify the actions are ready for delivery. One thing is to produce an action for a show - typically a prototype, once-off specimen. Another is to put an action into production, and actually start delivering meaningful numbers to customers. There are many pitfalls and problems to be resolved along the way - financing to be sorted out, production capacity, destructive testing, procurement of parts in the correct quality, all examples of which some (or all?) may apply in this particular case.

So kudos to Matt and his team for taking this a step further along the way. Let's stay cool until these things actually hit the street.

- mike

P.S. Having re-read my post, I just wanted to get across, that I'm not shooting at the Williams people. I believe we all wish them luck in their endeavour, and eagerly await a quality product. But it mostly takes quite a while (often measured in years as opposed to months) to go from first samples to full production. Will that be the case here? Only time will tell. Until then, let's not assume we can get the product tomorrow, and moan at Matt when it does not immediately happen. Patience is an important attribute in these endeavours.

gnmkr...

This is America; we can do that here. There is always a segment of the market who will pay for it if it is available.

Matt, you are correct on the dates, they must have changed them from the ones they had posted this year which said it was 1-28 to 2-1.

I will consider one of these after "Speedy" at SG&Y gives it a thumbs up because "only accurate rifles are interesting"!

quote:

Originally posted by gnmkr:
Hartman & Weiss quality, Remington price. Dream, dream, dream, all I have to do is dreammmm....

I thought you were a single shot guy!

quote:

Originally posted by gnmkr:
Hartman & Weiss quality, Remington price. Dream, dream, dream, all I have to do is dreammmm....

Actually, $825 dealer price is quite a bit more than a Remington.....isn't it? Haven't had a reason to check on Remington actions prices.

GV

quote:

Originally posted by GrandView:
Actually, $825 dealer price is quite a bit more than a Remington.....isn't it? Haven't had a reason to check on Remington actions prices.

GV

GV, naturally you are right about the $825 being more than a M700 action (which can probably be had somewhere in the vicinity of $300-500 depending on how you procure it). I don't know if you made that comment, because you thought $825 was steep, or whether it was just a reaction to what gnmkr wrote?? Still, let me just make a comment on prices for actions.

The price of an action is to a large degree dependent on how you produce it, and (to a lesser extent?) on how many you can sell. Different suppliers position their products at different levels of the market and different price ranges. To do so and still make money, they have to choose the manufacturing method, the tolerances acceptable and the level of finish they can afford to apply to the product.

In the last years, the US has been blessed with any number of new actions coming onto the market. This has been most prominent in the BR scene. Where Stolle actions used to dominate, there are now any number of new actions being offered by BAT, Jerry Stiller, Hall, Nesika, Borden etc etc.

The hunting market has not seen quite as many new actions introduced. But it is not that many years ago, that an Interarms MkX was about the only way to go, if you were looking for a reasonably priced, new, aftermarket action to build on. Sakos were available for a while, and old Mausers have always been popular. Other than that, you were looking at M700 or M70 donor actions of some sort. MRC have attempted to position their product to cater for a part of this lower end of the market. At the higher end, we now have Granite Mountain, Dakota, Prechtl, H&W, and any other number of manufacturers.

I see what Matt is trying to do with his product at $825, is to attempt to place himself between the lower end of market (represented by M700, MRC, M70) and the higher end (represented by Dakota, H&W, Prechtl, GM etc).

You can build great rifles on actions from the lower end of the market, no doubt about that. They often require a bit more work to deal with some of the drawbacks introduced by the manufacturing methods and tolerances dictated by the price. But all in all, they will work fine for a hunting rifle.

I think what Matt (and others like Gerry Stiller with his new "Predator" action) is counting on, is that as hunters grow more affluent (and they have over the last decades), they'll be willing to build on more expensive actions, and (hopefully) reap the benefits of a manufacturing method which should produce tighter tolerances.

This will probably mean little to the guys, who are perfectly happy with rebarreling a M700 and bed it in a McMillan and shoot small groups with their new toy. And in a sense, they are probably right. Still, many people building are willing to pay for actions to be trued, blueprinted, new threads cut, squared, sleeved - you name it - to (hopefully) obtain a better result. These are probably the people Matt is targeting his product at, by offering - true or not - a product, which does not need all these expensive mods to act as the "perfect" building block for a custom rifle.

I personally think he'll be able to sell his actions at $825. People will buy, if he offers value for money - relatively speaking. Compared to the high end of the market, he is still far below the price of a Dakota and the other, presumably high end products. The question will be, will he offer sufficient value to distinguish his product from the lower end of the market?

- mike