Hello Everyone,

I've done a little posting here in the last few days and have been extremely impressed by the amount of knowledgeable and interesting members that frequent this site. I'm glad I found this place.
My father and I are in the process of developing a new bolt-action reciever that I think should prove to be quite appealing for the majority of this board. We would like to hear from you all about ideas, comments, and or suggestions regarding this project. To cut to the chase I will present to you a list of the features that are action will have.

1)100% CNC Machined from solid barstock
2)Wire EDM'd raceways
3)Controlled Round Feeding
4)3-position safety with addition of gas flange
5)Machined steel One-Piece Bottom Metal
6)Machined Follower
7)Customers choice of either Dave Talley or Weaver-style bases machined integral with the receiver.
8)Threads, Locking Abutments, Bore and bases will be machined at the same time ensuring optimum accuracy
9) No blueprinting will be required, in fact it would be reccomended not to do so for fear of inaccurizing the premachined parts.
10)This action will use the Winchester Model 70 breaching system as well as the 70 stock.
11)The recoil lug will be integral as well as being drafted.
12)The bottom of the receiver will be widened for extended bedding surface and will be flat in one plane from the rear tang to the rear of the recoil lug. This will eliminate the step in the receiver that is seen on the Winchester.
13)The customer will have their choice of either the Winchester-style trigger that we will produce that has been wire EDM'd and precision machined, or an adjustable style, such as the Remington. This trigger we will also make. The housing will be machined from 304 stainless and composed of wire EDM'd components. The adjustments will be made just as they are on the Remington-style triggers.
14)Finally, the prices for our first action that will begin with the short-action will start at $825.00 dealer cost.

We expect to be into production by December, hopefully before Christmas. We will be offering 4 different action lengths; The short mentioned above, long-action(30-06), extra-long(416 Rigby), and the ultra-short(.223).
The Rigby length action will have a .750 diameter bolt and larger reciever ring.
The ultra-short will be around a .625 diameter bolt and smaller receiver ring.

We look forward to hearing from all of the board members about this new action and will be taking all suggestions posted into consideration while in the process of designing it. Thank you for your time, as it is much appreciated.

williamsfirearms.com

Your action sounds great, and I wish you much success! A few questions and suggestions:

What sort of steel are you going to employ, and are you going to heat-treat the parts in-house?

You might want to consider a roundtop action as and option, as some guys like to build (or have their riflemaker build) their own mounts or don't want to install a scope at all.

Are you going to offer a commercial Mauser style floorplate/triggerguard assembly (Blackburn, Burgess, ect.) as an option?

Are you going to create your own extractors out of real spring steel, and if so are you going to offer aftermarket spring steel extractors for the current Model 70 Classic?

I don't think a Remington 700-style trigger is necessarily a bad option, but I don't think it's necessary either. I prefer the Model 70 trigger, especially if it's the width of the original pre-64 trigger. The post-'64 and current version is too wide in my opinion.

AD

Triggerguard 1- Welcome to the site! Your actions and plans sound excellent and I suspect you will do very well with them. I'd like to talk to you about your .416 size action as with a .750 bolt it would be just the ticket for a new generation of T-Rex owners.! There are enough crazed Big Bore Afficionados here to keep you and your Dad busy for quite awhile.-Rob

Allen,
I see we speak the same language.

The receiver will be made from 4140 preheattreat which we will machine before the process, not after.

We will be machining the extractor from solid steel, and have plans to offer that as an aftermarket option for the Winchesters

You are right about the Remington and Winchester triggers, but I hope to appeal to a wider variety of shooters. The Winchester triggers will be .250" wide, like the pre-64's, no shoe. They will have a radiused contour though, unlike most aftermarket triggers. This will also be true for the Remington style as well.

We will probably offer the receiver without the bases machined into them, if that's what they prefer, but for obvious reasons they would be far ahead to use the integral base design.

I appreciate the comments and look forward to hearing more.

I agree with Allen on mounts. I would have the action take Rem 700 or M70 bases. If M70, then the standard M70 rear base as opposed to the M70 375.

For trigger, I would have Model 70 and also the same as M70 overall so the action would take the Jewell trigger.

For 375 H&Hs, 7mm STWs etc. and Rem Ultras I would have the magazine length at the 3.8" or so of the Rigby.

Good luck with the project. If it is all done well and can be delivered, you could not go wrong with a both a well made and bigger version of the Model 70.

Mike

Is this action going to be offered in stainless steel? I ask this because there are plenty of options for CRF chrome moly actions out there but the field for stainless steel actions is pretty narrow, especially left handed and short actions. I know a lot of guys prefer chrome moly but everyone, and I mean everyone, that I know who has had a custom rifle built in the last ten years has used a stainless action. If I were building a new action from scratch I'd primarilary offer it in stainless, then make a few chrome moly as demand dictated.

triggerguard1,

It sounds great

The 3 lever is very good if you can adjust engagement and pull weight without pulling rifle apart.

A number of shooters in Australia that have now gone the Jewell road have discovered how easy life is with the 3 lever trigger at 1 or 1.5 pounds, especially when it comes to making two rifles feel the same.

$875US is a very good price.

Mike

With the new short magnums like the Winchester and Remington why not make the small action (not the mini) large enough to handle what will be the cartridges of the future...plus, of course, a reasonable length magazine for the short-action.

I am both impressed and eager to get my grubby mitts on a S/S "short" action,compatible to the WSM spawn.

The integral base is a GODSEND!

The 1.5lb trigger,equally so.

It all sounds soooooo good to me,I'm afraid you are joking! Your phone is gonna be ringing off the hook..............

triggerguard1,

How about starting with left-handed actions for once? In stainless?

One questionable feature of the action tee-nut was going to build, involved the "c-ring" part. Will your action have just one extractor cut-out? Or two cut-outs, which I believe were used to make it easier to machine some actions.

Thanks

[ 07-19-2002, 16:38: Message edited by: BW ]

triggerguard1,

This sounds like a great action design, and I like the Talley style integral bases (if they are not too tall). How much additional cost do anticipate for the extra-long action over the initial short size? I can think of several projects for this action (505 Gibbs, 404 Jeffery, 470/416 Improved, etc.) that I am interested in.

How about a special offer for forum members to get your project off to a good start ?

Jim

A few other options to consider...(1) NP3 coating of the internals of the action. NP3 is sooo slick it's unbelievable and (2) selling barreled actions using a variety of custom barrels with custom chambering options.

Triggerguard 1!- You are living my dream! A few weeks ago I got the urge to build a complete action albeit a shelholder for a .50BMG. I got some 2.5 inch 4140 roundstock from Pac-Nor and concocted a set of plans loosely based on the Maadi-Griffen design. The project was a blast(literally) and came out unbelievably well. I have to admit that it took over 50 hrs of machining and some of the internal milling was pretty hairy. I made the receiver and bolt and had the steel heat treated at Pacific Heat treating. We completed the gun two weeks ago and fired it. Works really well and is surprisingly accurate. I envy you the CNC gear and EDM set-up. I just got to get me one! My gear is all first rate but manual albeit with DRO's on everything. I've given alot of thought to doing similar things, and when I retire in a few years, I plan to start building some extremely well done DGR's and Benchrest grade .50's( assuming they are still legal. If you get a chance I'd love to hear about the equipment you are planning to use.-Rob

Triggerguard, are you the same folks who build the nice one piece bottom metal for model 70's? I should have opened your site and looked. Answered my own question.

If so you already have my respect and admiration. Is there any chance of you making these in left handed? I have a few customers that are always looking for them.

One other thought, I can't imagine people using these actions and installing Weaver rings. Morris Melani (www.melaniprecision.com) is making a set of rings similar to the ones that Tom Burgess made in the past. They are excellent and only require a quarter turn in either direction to lock. They employ a cam instead of the lever being on a threaded bolt. You might consider either offering this action with the bridge uncut or having it dovetailed for those rings. I just took a rifle to Africa with them installed and was very pleased with them. The other rifle had a set of Burgess rings. Morris is making them on CNC. They are absolute gems.

Will the magazine box be sized for specific cartridges or ranges of cartridges?

I agree with Allen on the trigger. The model 70 is excellent.

I am going to send you an email also.

Chic Worthing

[ 07-19-2002, 11:41: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Triggerguard

A traditional looking, CRF, 3 position safety action in true left hand. This sounds almost too good to be true. More power to you.

When do you think you will be ready to ship the LH actions?

Have you any pictures you can post?

Good luck.

The plan sounds good to me, although I'd vote for starting production with the magnum length action!

And please (I'm begging), keep your brother away from the operation!

Sam B.
http://www.fireflyarms.com

triggerguard1,

You can count me in. Sounds fantastic. I would love to see pictures of your actions. Keep us posted on the progress. I can't wait to get my hands on one!

[ 07-19-2002, 16:54: Message edited by: Bill Soverns ]

TG,<br /> put me down for 416 rigby. I'll be wanting the winchester trigger. <br />it sounds AWESOME and thanks for doing this. It's a HUGE ordeal to start pushing a new action. I know my friends and customers will be dieing for these.<br /><br />when do you think your first extra large produciton run will be?<br /><br />jeffe

While I certainly feel for all you left-handed folks out there in cyberspace one sure way to go broke is to target 14% of the market (1 of 6 being left-handed)...you guys (and gals) should be used to being last in line by now.

Triggerguard, sorry I missed your comment about them being made in left hand also. My friends will be pleased.

DB Bill, that is the nice thing about CNC. Although you may have to build some new fixtures to hold the workpiece, you only have to change some programing and you are off to the races. the design work has already been completed. And if you attract all of that 14% it likely would be well worth your while. Of course 100% of the 14% would not be interested in one of these actions. But at those prices they likely will attract a great deal of those who are interested in custom work.

[ 07-19-2002, 20:55: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Matt Williams?

Are you any relation to Dwight Williams? Who also owned a company called "Williams Firearms"? Whose aluminum FAL recievers began blowing up? Who offered a lifetime guarantee but didn't make good on them so he went "out of business"? Also based in Oregon? Whose former website looked, well...virtually the same as yours, stating the very same things about experience in the industry and offering the same products?

Just curious.

[ 07-19-2002, 21:24: Message edited by: Roger Rothschild ]

Well guys, I'm going to attempt to reply with an all inclusive statement that will hopefully address all of your comments and suggestions. Here it goes.

As far as starting with left-hand actions, I'm afraid that probably won't happen simply because we don't have any southpaws in the shop and someones gotta do the dirty job of testing these things. We will however be offering the left hand version almost immediately after the right-hand version at no extra cost.

We won't be using the C-ring Mauser design for the breaching, so there won't be the problem with the extractor cut. It will have the Model 70 breaching system.

The differences in price between the short action and the extra long will be no more than about $60.00 or less.

We have considered coating the trigger and sear using TIN (titanium nitride coating). This is the coating that you'll see on cutting tools such as endmills, caribide inserts, and drills. It puts a gold finish on the tool. This aids considerably to wear and would most likely never wear out for the life of the rifle. This coating would only be applied to trigger and sear engagement area. And by the way, our trigger and sear will be made of 17-4PH heat treat. This will guarantee that you're not going to be worrying with corrosion of any kind. I don't know the particulars on NP3 coatings, but I'm all ears if someone could explain the process and costs.

We intend on in the future of offering barreled actions, but we only have a manual lathe at this time, which will work, but is not capable of machining the barrels to the quality that I will demand be achieved before it leaves our door. If any of you have ever seen threads cut right on a CNC lathe, you'll know what I'm talking about. There is no comparison. That goes for the chamber as well. Gunsmiths have been obtaining satisfactory results for many years by using conventional machinery, but satisfactory is not what I'm after. When we acquire the equipment, we will begin doing it right, the way it should have been done a long time ago.

As far as our equipment, we have 3 Haas Vertical CNC milling machines equipped with 8" 4-axis indexers. An Acer manual milling machine with 3axis DR0 and variable frequency drive, and a Jet belt drive lathe. Numerous sanders, buffers, grinders, and support equipment. Here is a link to our webpage that will give you an idea of what our equipment looks like.
Inside Williams Firearms

As you'll see from our website, we are the same folks who have been building Model 70 bottom metal for the last 11 years.

When it comes to putting the Weaver-style base on our reciever, I've already had quite a calling for them from the tactical crowd. This design is also considered the Picatinny-style which is the most widely used design for tactical rings. It is without a doubt the strongest design available, although it lacks a little in the cosmetic department we will be working on that. I'm interested to see what the Melani's look like. Sounds pretty good.

The action as well as the magazine box will be designed for a specific family of cartridges. We won't be trying to put 10 gallons of a crap in 5 gallon bucket That something the major manufacturers have been doing for sometime.

I don't have any pictures that I can post as yet, but as soon as I do, the board members on this site will see it first.

We will probably be pushing the extra-long action out the door by next spring at the latest. This will all depend on how well our sales go with the first action so that we can continue to captilize on getting new equipment.

Ohh, and all you southpaws out there, don't be too discouraged, we're only talking about a couple three weeks betweeen the rights and lefts

Well I hope that anwsers most of it. I'll be back later this evening. Till next time.

triggerguard1

I think I will need one pretty soon. I have to get one rifle to the store to make more room in the vault.
Everything sound soo good I almost think its unreal. What will the price be for this fantastic action?

Cheers
JOHAN

This all sounds very promising, hope it actually works out. Take a look at the Selous (Vektor) actions made in RSA; they incorporate many of your features. If you can come up with a cost effective way of producing integral ribbed, integral sight barrels like original Oberndorfs and other pre-war European sporters, I think there would be a demand for those too.

triggerguard1, it's good to see another Oregon company committed to the shooting sports, and with a committment to quality and performance.

The short, fat magnum concept has truly fostered a need for an action that's set up with the right magazine box and follower to handle these cartridges. From what I've seen so far, USRA and Remington have employed some rather skimmpy compromises in order to get these cartridges to feed (after a fashion!) with any degree of certainly.

For example, during the "Outdoor Life" gear test shoot, we worked with a Remington Model 7 in 7mm UMSA that was a real shooter out of the box with Remington factory loads. The big problem was feeding. Those rounds wanted to lurch and seize on their way out of the magazine, and the action wanted to bind. We also tested a Model 70 in .300 WSM (results unpublished in the "Gear Test" issue, but published in the current issue) that didn't feed a whole lot better. The magazine boxes and followers are just too narrow to properly do the job.

Anyhow, a action that's setup properly from the get-go for these cartridges is an important nitch to fill I think!

AD

Allen Day,
That's just what we thought too!

I want to draw from the experiences of the board members here to make sure that we don't cover old ground about what works and what doesn't. Anyone here who has modified Winchesters or even Remington receivers to handle these new cartridges, I would much appreciate them explaining what modifications they made to get them to feed reliably. I don't profess to be an expert on these new cartridges, or what makes them tick, however, I'm more than accomplished in my machining and engineering skills to make this a reality. I just need some good info from all of you folks so we don't waste a lot of time getting them out the door. We have some exciting plans for the future and I would like anyone who is interested to be a part of it. I'm also looking for the top gunsmiths on this board for evaluations of our receivers after they are tested by H.P. White Labratories. I'm going to make a list of these gunsmiths that this board recomends and will decide which 4 gunsmiths will receive our actions first for testing and evaluation. They will be sent at no charge, and will be yours to keep!
So, for all of you nongunsmiths, let me know who you think is the best on this site. I'm anxious to hear the results.

Matt,

John Ricks and I are working on a project to build professional hunter quality rifles for the trade. I have two M99 actions on order from the Montana Rifleman, one right hand and one left hand, for two prototype rifles.

I think John Ricks should get one of the actions. I expect he will get a lot of votes in this forum.

With that said, will you supply actions with the customer's choice of which side of the action the three-position safety is mounted? Some sources recommend that the M70 style safety be installed on the left side of a right hand action so the shooter can more easily take the safety off with the hands in firing position.

thanks...

jim dodd

Jim,
I'd have to see what the logistics would be on altering the safety lever. We'll obviously have different safety levers for right and left hand, but incorporating the two into one another, I'd have to check that one out. I'll let you know in couple of days and see what I come up with.

Matt, when it comes to magazine boxes, the real wizard riflesmith is D'Arcy Echols. I have a few custom rifles he built for me on Model 70 actions (belted magnum calibers) that he modified extensively all sorts of work including followers and thick magazine boxes of his own creation that are machined out of heat-treated stainless steel. These rifles feed better than any magazine rifles I've ever owned or handled, and they hold an extra round (four-down), but they are no deeper than a standard box. He has the whole process down to a science and an art.

AD

Matt,
Can you do a Remington style safety also? The CZ550 has this style safety and I would prefer to have all of my guns the same.
Also, how about producing a Ruger #1 style action for the big nitro express rounds like the 577, 600, and 700 NE's?
Todd

Just a personal preference, but I like the smooth, non checkered, bolt handle like the Pre-64's. Also, I hope that the bolt will be simple to disassemble like the Model 70's. When can I place my orders?

triggerguard1,

Ditto what Allen posted above. If it was my investment, I'd look to D'Arcy from the get go, and I'll add Gene Simillion

HBH

[ 07-20-2002, 09:03: Message edited by: HBH ]

Triggerguard

How about sending an action to David Tooley? He is for sure a good gunsmith.

Matt, you never answerd my question about the price for this unbelivable action. "Dont be shy"