Buddy of mine wants to rebarrel his Ruger #1 and asked for some barrel maker recommendations. Hart, Shilen, Pac-Nor, and Douglas all come to mind. Any other ones that I should mention?

yes...???

no, really, the answer is "yes, those will all work" .. but if its mike, shilen is just down the road from him and he can have it done right there

otherwise, pac-nor is my standby

Lilja

jeffe--not Mike, but another acquaintance. He has done some research and determined that Hart doesn't do #1s. I don't know, but I'll pass along the rest of the names to him.

quote:

Originally posted by dustoffer:
jeffe--not Mike, but another acquaintance. He has done some research and determined that Hart doesn't do #1s. I don't know, but I'll pass along the rest of the names to him.

Just a thought, but why not just get a contoured blank and hire a gunsmith to fit it. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of gunsmiths who can attach a barrel to the No.1 every bit, if not better, than a barrel manufacturer.

I agree with westpac. Buy a contoured blank and get a reputable smith to chamber and install it. It will save you money and time.
Butch

Lothar Walter makes a barrel second to none!

Krieger.

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
Lothar Walter makes a barrel second to none!

Now that is a pretty strong statement. I would love to see your supporting documentation. From what I have seen, I can think of about a dozen barrel makers that I would consider L-W second to in barrel quality. Maybe your criteria for rating barrel makers is based on other factors than bore quality.

Thanks,
John

A LW barrel is the last choice I would make. From a gunsmiths stand point, I'll never run one of my reamers into another one. Plus, they are not the "top" performing barrels. Look at any benchrest match report, and you will never see a LW listed. What does that tell you?

I'm sorry, but I'll have to agree with John. You can not afford to buy enough bushings to cover the variance in bore sizes in their barrels. You will not see a benchrest person using them because they will not shoot benchrest quality groups. The LW50 stainless is probably 14-4 or similar PH metal. It is tough but so what if it won't shoot. I had much rather have a Kreiger, Shilen, Lilja, or maybe a Pac-Nor.
Butch

Half Moon, Badger

i really admire the guy that makes the barrels for jack daniels

I am starting to look for a #1 for a donor. It iwll be a rebarrel. I think Pac-Nor will get it just becuase I have had great luck with their 17 and 20cal barrels. I also have Hart, Lilja they are all fantastic. They clean great and shoot better than me.

I would be more concerned with who hangs it than who makes it. Look for a smith that is up on making #1s shoot. They will shoot really well, but the need some extra loving.

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
Lothar Walter makes a barrel second to none!

Sure it is....it's 2nd to Lilja, Krieger, Hart, Broughton, Jarret, and PacNor.

(that's a LOT of 2nds)!

I have to agree with everyone on LW barrels. A customer supplied one for a project last year and if I never see one ever again it will still be too soon. Humbarger is correct they're not second, they're last right behind new takeoff barrels. I will never install another lothar walther. Krieger is my favorite but I've installed lots of Pac Nor's and Shillens and all have been great. Most of the custom makers are turning out good barrels.

Schneider or Spencer.

But Eddie, I heard Spencer sold all of his barrel equipment?

Schneider makes a great barrel but he's sometimes difficult to deal with and is usually in no hurry to fill your order. I don't know if it is a matter of arrogance, or he just doesn't give a hoot. Not sure, but I know his barrels can certainly shoot.

Jim Borden has or had Spencer barrels listed on his website as an option last year. This may have changed, I have not looked. I do not know anything about them, but I do know Mr. Borden wouldn't install a crap barrel on his custom rifles.

Lex Webernick (Rifles Inc.) went from Shilen to Lilja in the recent past. I have 2 Shilens that shoot very very well, and I have no regrets but I also have heard that Shilen has it's share of lemons too. I think for awhile, quantity superceded quality, but perhaps that has been corrected.

Doc,
can you define a lemon for me, when talking about a shilen rifle? i have HEARD of some that weren't moa... but not off by much.. and purchsed as the "lone star", which shilen no longers offers as second grade.

EVERY factory remington sendero wears a shilen barrel (words from ed shilen's mouth to my ears, face to face) and one never hears of those being bad?

just hadn't heard of a bad shilen barrel, and that be the root cause of the trouble

jeffe

hi
what about BORDER in Scotland ? they are known for making excellent barrels and have you heard of HEYM in Germany they have reputation for making excellent guns and make very solid high quality(KRUP steel) hammer forged barrels too.
yes

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Doc,
can you define a lemon for me, when talking about a shilen rifle?

Sure, "lemon"....as in a car that is a lemon...vehicle has persistent automotive deficiencies. But I wasn't talking about a Shilen rifle, I was talking about a Shilen barrel, and the comments I've heard from some smiths that said they were having concentricity issues with some Shilens.

quote:

EVERY factory remington sendero wears a shilen barrel (words from ed shilen's mouth to my ears, face to face) and one never hears of those being bad?

I think you need to talk to Wade about that. If you were to ask Ed if they make Remington Sendero barrels, the answer would be yes, they make that contour. But, they've never SUPPLIED Remington WITH barrels for their Sendero rifles. If that were the case then they forgot to lap all of the ones that I've taken a bore scope to.

You can clear that up with them if you wish, but this has been brought up before and it simply isn't true, at least to the best of Wade's knowledge now, and according to my discussion with Doug some years ago.

You can call Remington too, 800.243.9700. They'll tell you it is false about the Sendero.

As far as MY Shilen barrels, you can reread my post. I'm delighted with them.

Shilen did supply some barrels to Remington for small caliber rifles in the last 2-3 years but you should call for specifics.

The 547 out of the custom shop does wear Shilen...22LR, 17HMR.

Look at this.

Why would Remington specifically list the 547 as having a Shilen barrel, but not with the Sendero?

Doc,
thanks for being decent on the discussion. I was facing Ed, after I was talking with Wade, who was still within reach. Wasn't a misunderstanding...

Perhaps they paid a different rate for the "not listed as shilen" barrels... but I am entirely certain what Ed said to me, standing in his shop.

This was after Doug no longer had anything to do with the company.

Concentricity issues? as in bore alignment? you send that barrel back... That should not happen, as they are CNC turned, and have been for quite some time. But, misaligned barrels happen..

Lemon as in shooter? Again, I haven't heard of a "bad" Shilen barrel..but I have heard of some "lonestar" barrels, made by shilen, that didn't shoot moa... BUT they no longer make that SOLD AS LOWER GRADE barrels, due to that very fact..

LOL, but I havev AB barrels that shoot 1/2 MOA or better, and those are all "junk"... I wonder how many "junk" barrels, or even lemons, could be also atributed to human error

Doc,

Thanks for the link.
That 547 is one beautiful rimfire rifle.

Don

the montana rifle company (MRC) may be worth a look.

I've had the Shilen barrels for years and mine just flat out shoot well.

I do not know the specifics of the concentricity issues some smiths have had. I didn't discuss it with them in detail.

But, I will add that my actions were sent directly to Shilen and they installed the barrels and did a damn fine job. Maybe back in 1999....don't remember the year.

Anyway, Remington denies using Shilen barrels on their Senderos. Wade also said that they do not supply Remington with Shilen barrels for the Sendero, but that he wished they did.

As far as being decent, HEY, I'm always decent!!

quote:

Originally posted by DMB:
Doc,

Thanks for the link.
That 547 is one beautiful rimfire rifle.

Don

Yes, I think so too.

I don't understand why there hasn't been more outrage at the news OSHA has decided to outlaw ammuntion. If anyone who receives this didn't know about it, you do now.

WRITE A LETTER AND MAIL IT BEFORE THE 12TH OF JULY.



Proposed “Safety†Regulations Would Dry Up Ammunition Sales Tuesday, July 03, 2007 The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has proposed new rules that would have a dramatic effect on the storage and transportation of ammunition and handloading components such as primers or black and smokeless powder. The proposed rule indiscriminately treats ammunition, powder and primers as “explosives.†Among many other provisions, the proposed rule would:
Prohibit possession of firearms in commercial “facilities containing explosivesâ€â€”an obvious problem for your local gun store.
Require evacuation of all “facilities containing explosivesâ€â€”even your local Wal-Mart—during any electrical storm.
Prohibit smoking within 50 feet of “facilities containing explosives.â€
It’s important to remember this is only a proposed rule right now, so there’s still time for concerned citizens to speak out before OSHA issues its final rule. The National Rifle Association, National Shooting Sports Foundation, and Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute will all be commenting on these proposed regulations, based on the severe effect these regulations (if finalized) would have on the availability of ammunition and reloading supplies to safe and responsible shooters.

The public comment period ends July 12. To file your own comment, or to learn more about the OSHA proposal, click here or go to http://www.regulations.gov/ and search for Docket Number OSHA-2007-0032â€; you can read OSHA’s proposal and learn how to submit comments electronically, or by fax or mail.

-----------------------------

OSHA Docket Office Docket No. OSHA-2007-0032 U.S. Department of Labor, Room N-2625 200 Constitution Ave., N.W. Washington, DC 20210

Re.: Docket No. OSHA-2007-0032 (Explosives—Proposed Rule)

There has been a lot of outrage and OSHA has put off any action for another 60 days before hearings.
Doc is right about the Shilen barrels.
Butch

Hello,
The Krieger Barrels are about as good as they are going to get in today's market. For over nearly 50 years now, been using Douglas for smaller than 308 and Krieger for 308 bore size. Shot for sometime a 22-250 w/ 8 twist Douglas,80gr Sierras, 30" barrel and that rig delivered HM scores for nearly three years/seasons before accuracy dropped off. Best shooting rifle ever had was plain jane 40X w/ Krieger 30" Palma barrel, 1/12 twist, shot 190's almost all the time and used very basic Rem. Rangemaster Walnut stock properly bedded by Master Class and unless did something really stupid, kept them in the 10 ring and nearly 50% in X ring from 600-1000 yards. Good rifle and great barrels those Kriegers. Camp Perry's 100th Anniversary match this year and you can bet the top shooters at long range/prone/sling will be using Krieger barrels.

In my experience with high power barrels:
Very, Very Good Barrels you can get:
1.Cut-rifled: Krieger
2.Buttoned: Lilja 3 groove

THE best if you can get them:
1. Obermayer (cut)
2. Chanlyn (cut)

Never used a Mike Rock cut-rifled barrel, but I would because I've heard excellent reports.

It's really hard to go wrong with a Krieger barrel all things considered.

I own Krieger, PacNor, Shilen and would be happy to buy many more.

I have heard fantastic reports of Kostyshyn who are really making a name for themselves with the benchrest crowd lately.

I'm going to have to find out who made Tom Sarver's barrel for the 300 HULK that he shot Saturday to get a 1.403" group at 1,000 yards with.

I bought a Kostyshyn in .308 and sold it to another AR member because he was ready for a project. I hated to see it go but it went to someone who will certainly put it to use.

I'm anxious to hear his report when it is finished.

RWS, Clay sold his barrel making equipment to make room for all new equipment.
Doc, Craig certainly makes a fine barrel. A 1 year wait is more than I can handle.
Gary Schneider has been making barrels for the USMC armorers for years and I'm sure they keep him plenty busy nowdays. His delivery times seem to be in line with Bartlein, Krieger and Broughton.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Doc is right about the Shilen barrels.
Butch

I then withdrawl the statement and will never make it again

thanks Butch!
j

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I'm going to have to find out who made Tom Sarver's barrel for the 300 HULK that he shot Saturday to get a 1.403" group at 1,000 yards with.

Heck with the barrel.....I'd like to know whose bullets he's shooting!!!!

In addition to being severely addicted to guns and gunmaking, I am also a fairly serious photographer. I just realized some similarities between the devotees of each past time last night. Can't believe it never hit me before.

Many aspiring photographers (a nice way to say "wannabe's" ) ask professionals what camera/lens/tripod/filter/software/whatever was used to make a shot. The funny thing is, all of the equipment added together has only a small impact on a photograph in most cases. Of course, a few shots require some special equipment, but even then the equipment has a minority effect on the outcome. In every case, the primary motivator in how a shot will look is the DAST (Dumb Ass Shutter Tripper).

But that is not what the aspiring photogs want to hear. They think "I need a new lens and THEN i can make shots just like that!" They drop $1200 or whatever on a new lens and fire off 1000 shots over the next month. Well what do you know, one of the shots was pretty good, and was was REALLY good. The new lens was the answer! Is they kept good records, they would see they did as well the previous month with the old and cheaper lens. But they do not keep records so they go on internet camera boards and tell folks that Lens XXX is the answer and the BEST made today!

The limiting factor in all but literally .0001% of rifle shooters is the DATP (Dumb Ass Trigger Puller). Almost no one keeps records of sizes of EVERY group they shoot. Hardly a soul says what the rifle will do day in and day out, not "when I do MY part." BTW-the last phrase is my personal most hated 5 words invlved in shooting!!!

What I am saying is pick any of the good barrel makers, have a good smith put it on, and then have some one teach you how to shoot! You would be so much better off keeping the barrel you have and buying a good front and rear rest, good flags, getting a good bench made, learning how to load straight and cosistent ammo, learning how to read conditions, and learning how to measure groups and accurately record everything you do.

I will be the first to tell you that I am not a good shot. I can think of loads of people who are incredibly better shooters than I am. Take out own Buth Lambert for example. Butch can shoot circles around me. Oh, I could get lucky and maybe do better than him one day (but not likely ), but if you track it over a year, he will be markedly better at shooting small groups. I am very anal about numbers-one of the curses of being an engineer-and if I ever tell soemone what a rifle will do, it is the avaerage of at least 5 groups. I will also tell them how many shots were in each group and at what range. I know it makes my numbers larger than most folks, but they are accurate and recorded numbers, with none of the "if I do my part" business.

So why am I writing this? Well, it is simple-I want folks to shoot smaller groups and have more fun at the range! For me at least, shooting small groups is more fun than shooting larger groups. I'm, just funny that way. If folks spent more time learning to read conditions, measure groups, recording their data, etc, then they would shoot smaller groups. Worrying about what the wind keeps doing at your middle flag is infinitely more important than who made the barrel on your rifle. And I believe that in most cases who installed the barrel is more important than who made it.

From eevrything I have seen, a good custom gunmaker will do a better job of fitting and chambering a barrel than will a barrel maker. Whomever you get to fit your barrel, ask them how they do it. There are several good methods, but find out what they typically get for the chamber TIR (Total Indicated Runout). If done correctly, you can get chambers that run under .001" TIR. This means it is straight and concentric. But don't get totally hung up on that number either, as barrels with a good bit more than that can really shoot. But it is a good target for the barreling guy to shoot for. The last barrel I fit and chambered had between .0005 to .0007" TIR. It can really be hard to get good measurements when working at that level, and really there is no practical difference between 50 millionths and 70 millionths of a inch anyway. THis was on a sporting rifle with quarter rib, stuff soldered on the barrel, fully engraved, and stocked with 100% wood to metal contact. But it is the RIGHT way to chamber in my book. I am only saying this because most barrel makers do not go to the lengths required to get such runouts, even on barrels that will be used for target work.

So my opinion is spend your money on a good barrel fitter, and don't fret too much over the brand of the barrel. My personal rifles have Shilen, Krieger, and Lilja barrels. I would be equally happy with PacNor, Schneider, Half Moon, Hart, McGowen, Obermeyer, Spencer, and many others out there. But unless there is a supply problem, I will keep using priarily Shilen, with a Lilja or Krieger thrown in the mix just when a I get a wild hair every now and then. The only ones I won't use are Douglas, A&B, Shaw, and Lothar Walther. The most improtant thing is that I will carefully load ammo and chamber my barrels. I have not been able to shoot much for the past 12 months due to some health problems, but when I can start back, I will be using a BR front rest and 3 good flags. I have been re-reading some BR books I have and plan on improving my condition reading abilities.

Good luck and small groups!!!

PS-it can be so hard to judge tone in words written on the screen, so I just want to be sure everyone knows that I did not mean one word of this to be negative or condescending in any way. I honestly just want to see everyone get smaller groups and have more fun out of their trips to the range. Keep your left eye on on the flags boys!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I'm going to have to find out who made Tom Sarver's barrel for the 300 HULK that he shot Saturday to get a 1.403" group at 1,000 yards with.

Heck with the barrel.....I'd like to know whose bullets he's shooting!!!!

30 caliber, 240 grain Sierra Matchking.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I'm going to have to find out who made Tom Sarver's barrel for the 300 HULK that he shot Saturday to get a 1.403" group at 1,000 yards with.

Heck with the barrel.....I'd like to know whose bullets he's shooting!!!!

30 caliber, 240 grain Sierra Matchking.

Thanks Frank!!!!!

Jeffe, I can personally attest to getting a bad Shilen Select Match Grade barrel. It had a spot about 6" from the crown where it appeared the rifling stopped and began again half an inch later. Don't know how it could happen, don't care. I called Shilen and they basically said it wasn't their problem, didn't even want to look at it, too bad so sad. I pitched it, put on a Lilja and never looked back, never will.

That is the definition of a lemon. I prefer Douglas to Shilen, but there are any number listed here better.