quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Many aspiring photographers (a nice way to say "wannabe's" ) ask professionals what camera/lens/tripod/filter/software/whatever was used to make a shot. The funny thing is, all of the equipment added together has only a small impact on a photograph in most cases. Of course, a few shots require some special equipment, but even then the equipment has a minority effect on the outcome.

A custom lab I used to process my film back when I had a commercial photography business in the 70's had a sign on their wall that read: "No amount of labwork can MAKE a photo if it wasn't there at the time of exposure." It didn't matter what gear or process you used, if the picture wasn't there, it wasn't there.

Vapo, I built a pair of 7mm STAK's for a couple of folks one of which will print a 1.75" group at a 1000' when the conditions are right. He also uses Sierra Matchkings. For those who keep track of this kind of stuff, they were built on trued Rem 700 actions using handlapped Shilen Chrome Moly tubes. Gotta love those Shilens!

Larry,
I'm sorry, I don't believe you as you stated it. I have never known them not to offer to at least examine it. For several years I sold 1000-1500 barrels per year and never had that problem, not once. If a customer had a problem they inspected the barrel before making a judgement. I believe there is more to this story than we know about.
Butch

Sorry Butch. No more, no less. Maybe I just got someone on a pissy day, maybe it was because I bought one at a time and was not a big time buyer, but there really is nothing more to the story. I made sure I was polite and courteous, as it was the first time I had bought from them. Like I said, maybe I just caught someone on a bad day, but that was the way it was.

I'm sure your experience varies, it's just mine.

Walther Lothar no Good???...
Im interested to know the actual problems.
Conversation with owner of HartmannWeiss,when enquiring about a t/d barreled action Magnum mauser,gave me to understand that they are a mighty fine tube.
I asked about Krieger,said was possible,but assured me WL are A-1 quality.
H&W have reputation for building undoubtedly the finest magnum mauser action in the world(talk to some of the finest metal smiths,RalfMartini,DarcyEchols,GerryFisher,Ted Blackburn) and have held that title for some yrs now. A t/d barreled action(no sights) costs around8k,complete rifles easily 22k upward.
Why would a company with reputation for exquisite meticulous detail&quality in bolt rifles,singles and Doubles, opt for an inferior tube?

Now to throw another cat amongst the pigeons, talking to MR.Hagn about barreling a smallframefalling block,they primarily use RKS/RonSmith barrels. I asked about Krieger,he very much prefer to avoid them cause of problems he has had. Dismissed their name almost immediately.

Have heard nothing but good reports about MikeRock and MarkChanlyn barrels.
Mr.Chanlyn is one of the few that cuts your bore after integral features are completed.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Jeffe, I can personally attest to getting a bad Shilen Select Match Grade barrel. It had a spot about 6" from the crown where it appeared the rifling stopped and began again half an inch later. Don't know how it could happen, don't care. I called Shilen and they basically said it wasn't their problem, didn't even want to look at it, too bad so sad. I pitched it, put on a Lilja and never looked back, never will.

That is the definition of a lemon. I prefer Douglas to Shilen, but there are any number listed here better.

Larry
sorry to hear that.. and I am stunned they didn't say "send it back, we'll look at it"... about how many years ago was that? more than three, less than 8?
yeah, it does matter, really
jeffe

Woodjack, WL barrels are miserable to machine. They remove all the elements that make a barrel thread and chamber well. They take ALOT more time to chamber and beat up all your tooling for a final product thats not any better. In other words ther're frustrating and a waste of time. And as far as I know hammer forging barrels has never made a barrel better than a good quality custom drilled and cut rifled barrel.

Gee,
I guess I got lucky? My L-W barrels are well made, and shoot great!

quote:

Originally posted by SWD:
Woodjack, WL barrels are miserable to machine. They remove all the elements that make a barrel thread and chamber well. They take ALOT more time to chamber and beat up all your tooling for a final product thats not any better. In other words ther're frustrating and a waste of time. And as far as I know hammer forging barrels has never made a barrel better than a good quality custom drilled and cut rifled barrel.

SWD,
I understand some of your points.. but "a waste of time.."?
There are solutions to alot of things if people search. I was at a recent engineering manufacturing show. They had a CNC machine set up to produce injection moulding dies out of a block of some supertough chromemolly mould makers steel. They were using cutters that did the primary metal removal which also also left a finish so good that no final polish work was required on the mould.
Maybe H&W have done their homework and have the budget and profit margin to suffer the costs of finishing a WL barrel up to fine spec. Lets face it, they are not your average gunsmithing workshop.
I believe WL stainless barrels are 17-4 grade,something that some folk prefer above the other grades of SS.

WL barrel material.

Types of Stainless

17-4 Alloy for the very technically minded.

And it does not stop with barrels, HARRE makes some of the finest finished M70 type receivers from 17-4 stainless, were talking tolerances in single figure microns.BUt they do come at a price, us$3500. PrariegunWorks also makes their model 700copy out of 17-4.
So it seems others dont feel its a waste of time,(if properly geared to do the job).
But I do understand that not everyone requires,appreciates,desires, or can afford the same thing.

My 1909 with a 6.5x55 Lothar Walther Article #724--about $200, off the rack--has twice won best group in our club's annual hunter class contest.

Sub 1/2 MOA at 200 yards.

flaco

Woodjack,
I understand how to thread and chamber a LW 14-4 barrel and have done it. HW makes a nice receiver, but I would not put or let them put a LW barrel on it. There are a few on this forum that can afford what ever barrel that they choose. The LW may be passable as a hunting barrel, but not for precision marksmanship. I agree with you on 99% of topics, just not this one.
Butch

Butch.Did yo mean 17-4 Stainless?

What really turned me off to the LW barrels was their advertising from them and Blackstar in the late '90's. They claimed to have all of this super duper top secret classified processes they eluded to but would not elaborate on. It was all propiatary information that aliens taught them how to build a superior barrel.

Then there was no more BLackstar and some LW rep would visit different internet boards and make the same claims, but still rufused even basic information on their top secret barrel making process. THe guy was pretty abrasive at times and would talk down to people who asked basic questions to him. I remember reading him the most on benchrest.com back around '99 and '00.

I have always lived by the motto that if someone only sales the "flash" then there can't be too much "substance." I have no respect for them as a company and don't want to patronize them. Plus too many folks have said they are a bear to chamber.

Besides, the more I have thought about it, the more I realize how much truth was in the first post I made in this thread. In Precision Shooting, they give the equipment list of the winners. THe most important catagories in my book are gunsmith and stocker.

What I also think is more improtant than the other items listed is who taught them how to load straight ammo, how to read conditions, bench technique, and what was the most important thing gleaned from each teacher? What is their practice plan? How do they mentally prepare for each string? What have been the top 5 things that helped them shoot smaller groups? What are the top 5 things they still struggle with the most? What have they found helps them deal with the problems?

The answers in the paragraph above have infintely more impact on group size then the actual equipment used. Pick components from the large list of competetive equipment and focus on learning how to shoot better. Shooters see a small group and ask what barrel was that? Photographers see a portfolio shot and ask what camera and lens was used? These are 2 of the most useless questions that can be asked if smaller groups and better photographs are the end goal.

Jeffe, I don't have all my notes any more, but I know it was before 2002, so probably 8-10 years ago.

Like I tried to portray, I am not mad and I suspect someone was just having a bad day. There are just more options out there. No hard feelings.

I did a lot of research before purchasing a custom barrel . I spoke to several Smiths other persons who had purchase whatever brand barrels . Some were happy some were not .

It makes me wonder to a certain extent if whom ever ( persons )put the projects together were responsible for some of the less than stellar performances the customers were hoping for !?.

I can tell you for my own experience which is very limited . I made the correct choice in " Lilja " !.
It is TOP Notch . Now only if I could match it's performance level on a regular basis !. As usual my $ 0.0025 worth of input !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Boreguide, sorry for the late reply, I have been out of town for a family reunion. I did mean 17-4. I stand corrected.
Butch

unless you want to spend a fortune for the number one barrel contact e r shaw in pittsburgh, pa.

for $150 they will supply a barrel in one of 5 contours fully contured, chambered and threaded .

for about $50 more they will install & headspace.

this may be more in line price wise with the number one than some $1,000 barrel made for shooting in olympic competition.

Two comments here:

1. I believe Marc Stokeld's comments in this thread contain at least one full lifetime of true wisdom and should be printed and hung on the wall by every shooter, even those who already know all that he said, and agree with him.

2. I think Shilen barrels shoot well. The reason I don't use them is I don't want to have to make a full 11-piece set of pilots for every bore diameter I may chamber.

My experience with Shilen barrels (and that of my friends who also gunsmith target rifles) is that a given bore diameter may actually vary as much as .0012". We all have complete sets of .30 pilots, for instance, because Shilen .30 barrels we have received have varied in actual land diameter from .2997" to .3010". We like our pilots to fit within .0001", so we use other makes which have less variation in bore size. No sense spending time (or money) to make pilots if one doesn't have to.

Now, it IS true Shilen management has changed since we last tried Shilen barrels. That MAY no longer be a problem, but we have not had the problem to begin with in some other makes, so we use them instead.

Personally, I use Hart in the below .30 diameters, Rock in the .30's, and several others in the over .30 diameters. I can't say they shoot significantly (measureably) better than Shilen's, but I can say I feel more secure about which diameter(s) I'm going to get when I order one.

Please understand, I am NOT bad-mouthing Shilen barrels. Lots of folks use them and love them. I still have a few on rifles of my own ( 6.5, .30 and .375). If they didn't shoot well, they'd have been long gone, but they are still here. Just saying that for me and my friends they have been a bit more trouble than we felt we needed to go to....

Let me step in deep water here. This has nothing to do with any brand of barrel. I am like Mr. Canuck, I have a lot of pilots and bushings. Quite an investment! My present method of chambering in the headstock is to indicate with a long reach Interapid indicator. I indicate the grooves at the throat area. This also lets me check if the lands are of equal height. I then rough drill and bore within .020 of the shoulder diameter. I double check my indicator reading at the throat area. When rarely it is off I reindicate and bore another .010. I use a loose fitting bushing on my reamer and finish my chamber.I will bet if you use this method you probably will not need a bushing! This is a little too slow to make good money{3 hrs}, but I do it because I feel like I'm getting the best job possible. Remember the reamer is going to follow the straight bored hole and not the bushing on the reamer.
Butch

anybody had anything to do with Bartlein barrels?

regards
griff

Griff,
The benchrest guys have had mixed results. I believe that they thought with Kreiger's technology and new machinery that it would take off. I don't thank that they are any better or worse than the other barrels.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Let me step in deep water here. This has nothing to do with any brand of barrel. I am like Mr. Canuck, I have a lot of pilots and bushings. Quite an investment! My present method of chambering in the headstock is to indicate with a long reach Interapid indicator. I indicate the grooves at the throat area. This also lets me check if the lands are of equal height. I then rough drill and bore within .020 of the shoulder diameter. I double check my indicator reading at the throat area. When rarely it is off I reindicate and bore another .010. I use a loose fitting bushing on my reamer and finish my chamber.I will bet if you use this method you probably will not need a bushing! This is a little too slow to make good money{3 hrs}, but I do it because I feel like I'm getting the best job possible. Remember the reamer is going to follow the straight bored hole and not the bushing on the reamer.
Butch

Butch - I don't have any argument with your method. So long as the boring bar is stiff enough to prevent any rythmic flex, should work outstandingly. I still prefer to use a pilot of a diameter within .0001" of the bore diameter, both for reasonable production speed, and because I know that will produce chambers good enough to win national championships and set national records.

Guess that just prooves there are at least 2 ways to skin the same cat, eh?

How are you guys doing down there? All that rain cause you any personal discombooberations?

Best wishes, AC

I'm not enough of an expert to address first hand the issue of quality in Bartlein barrels, but people whose opinions I respect are using them.

I do know for certain that they are good enough to have developed an eternal backlog of orders.

flaco

AC, A lot of world records have been set chambering other than the way that I do it.
I opened up a draw that fed one of my fishing ponds last winter and raised the dam 1 foot. We moved 2300 yards of material out of the draw. I welcomed the rain and my pond is full. My fish and my Grandson are very happy. Yes, they were some flooding problems, but not in our area.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
My fish and my Grandson are very happy. .
Butch

Glad to hear you came through it okay, Butch. Makes me a little more confident in God when good people like yourself are taken care of...

Now, to serious business. Are we talking bream, or bass? Either way I am already jealous of your grandson!

You know AC, that is a loaded question. I stocked it with Florida bass and hybrid Bluegill. It has been stocked for 5 1/2yrs. We have caught a couple 5 lb. bass and several 1 1/2- 2 3/4lb Bluegills. The pond is actually very old and we had to start over. We fertilize and keep a constant supply of fathead minnows. They are considered the best food for the bass. My Grandson caught a 4lb 2 oz bass on his flyrod Sunday evening. That was a thrill.
Butch

Jeez, Butch, you sure know how to make a man's feet itch!

When I first came to Oregon some 46 years ago, on my first day here I caught a 7 lb-1 oz. largemouth in one of the local lakes (Siltcoos) within about 1/2-mile of the ocean. Moved here right afterward. Really like Steelhead fishing with a wet fly, and one year fished 48 weekends plus Christmas and New Year's Days...hunted the other 4 weekends.

Spent most of my years afterward back in Canada and Arizona, but to cut to the chase, really don't think there is anything more fun for a youngster or an old guy than fishing for BlueGill. Must admit though, I have never even heard before of a 2-3/4 lb. BlueGill. Now, that's not a hog,but a MOOSE!!

Wish I could get my wife to move to either NE, N, or NW Texas when she retires in another year, but doubt that will happen. She is bound and determined to move to some large city like San Diego, West Palm Beach, or Vegas. Since the illegal tide started flowing north every night, those are not in my personal plans. Yuucchhh!

Anyway, sounds to me as if you have a little bit of paradise. Hang onto it, pard!!

AC ; Watch out down south of ya . Things are darker than you think !. Christ stay away from Vegas !. AZ NM TX might be OK .

What's the matter going North ?.

Shot straight know your target . ...

Dr. K -

Thanks for your thoughtful advice. Believe me, I have absolutely NO intent of ever living on any part of the east coast, north or south. Ditto San Diego/La Jolla area.

Some of the East is very nice I am sure, but as a former LEO, I have no intention of moving anywhere with the sorts of social problems which seem to abound there. I also hate high humidity, and areas which seem to excel at breeding/growing big bugs and pit vipers that don't rattle (spelled Copperheads). Also didn't much care for the hurricanes I experienced when invited by the armed services to live there a while...and wasn't allowed to say "no thanks".

I'd move to Kansas, South Dakota, North Dakote, eastern Montana, Western Nebraska sandhills, Oklahoma panhandle, north Texas in a heart beat, but my wife hates snow. I could talk her into the parts south of Kansas, 'cause the snow isn't there that long or that deep and she is from the Ukraine via Bruderheim, Alberta, so she can cope. I'd even go back to Canada, except I don't want to put up with 8 or 9 months of winter every year now that I am in my 70's.

I guess the areas I really like the best are around Seligman, Arizona or that part of southern Utah just north and west maybe 75 miles from Paige, AZ. But won't get the frau there either as is too far from big city shopping and really good dressage competition (for which she lives). Ditto the area on 395 about 50-75 miles south of Carson City, Nevada.

So, thanks to one of the members here, we have already started discussing the area just north a bit from Dallas, TX. She could shop in Dallas, and I spent some years in graduate school at OU, so I know and like the territory (was married in Gainesville, TX and used to take my E-jag clear to San Antonio to get it tuned properly).

Anyway, thanks again and best wishes,

AC

I put a pencil down the muzzle of all the 300WM's I own and there is too much play in the Sendero barrel compared to all my other barrels.I suspect the Sendero bore to have worn out before the throat was shot out.My factory Winchesters have performed much better than the Sendero,and lasted longer too.I noticed on one of my Winchesters the barrel is not the same as the others on the Winchesters.It has a crown cut differently for one thing and it is my most accurate barrel.It is more accurate than my best Kriegers.I hope one day someone with a good knowledge of Winchester rifles can help me identify the manufacturer of the barrel(if not Winchester).It is a factory rifle bought brand new,off the shelf from a Winchester dealer.I took a pic with my phone camera but it is not clear enough.I'll be glad if the manufacturer is not Winchester and still around.

Sometimes it pays to live in Wisconsin. Not often, but when it comes to barrel makers, we have some of the best. Krieger, Obermeyer, Broughton, Badger, and now Bartlein. Krieger and Bartlein are less than 10 miles from my office. Hart has a great bench rest reputation. Lilja is one I never hear anything bad about. I have a couple of Douglas' on hunting rifles and can't complain, although I use Kriegers on my competition rifles.

Fast Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
THis was on a sporting rifle with quarter rib, stuff soldered on the barrel, fully engraved, and stocked with 100% wood to metal contact.

Would love to see pictures if you get a chance.

I will be taking pictures of the metal work this weekend, and then I will PM them to you. I have set up a studio for shooting gun pics and I am still learning how to adjust the lighting and make everything look correct

quote:

Originally posted by Fast Ed:
Sometimes it pays to live in Wisconsin. Not often, but when it comes to barrel makers, we have some of the best. Krieger, Obermeyer, Broughton, Badger, and now Bartlein. Krieger and Bartlein are less than 10 miles from my office. Hart has a great bench rest reputation. Lilja is one I never hear anything bad about. I have a couple of Douglas' on hunting rifles and can't complain, although I use Kriegers on my competition rifles.

Fast Ed

You forgot Brux up in Lodi. I just got a .510 barrel from them, it looks(and slugs) great!

Delivery time was shocking as well.

And Mike Rock in Albany. His barrels are pretty well regarded in the tactical crowd. I had the pleasure of a tour of his shop recently, and he's got some great equipment, and definitely knows how to use it.