Ok, this is not a question; it is to tell everyone how easy Rust Bluing is, in the Midwest, in the summer. Since we have temps of 95, and humidity of 90% every day (many people do not realize how bad it sucks to live here; worse than Florida in the summer and worse than Alaska in the winter.) But I am stuck now.
Anyway, use Bobster's American Formula. Clean steel with laundry detergent and scrub it with a scotch bright pad; that etches the surface. Swab on blue solution with a cotton ball, a very small one; if you get too much solution on, it will streak. Wear rubber gloves or it will eat your skin off.
No need for a damp cabinet; It will rust almost immediately. I'm working on a. Lee Speed 375 now, and Yesterday I put two coats on. left to rust over night; don't worry, it won't etch too much; but if you want a shiny finish, don't leave it that long.
I steamed it for 20 minutes today; ONE time is enough; it is dead black and even. I carded with a piece of old bath towel; if you want it shiny, you will need to use steel wool. I wanted a more Matte finish to match the rest of the metal. I just did the barrel. Black stuff comes off in long thin flakes. It's converted rust; Ferric to ferris, or vice versa.
Wash it in clean hot water, and I use Linseed oil on it.
That's it. If anyone wants a picture of my steamer, let me know and I will post one. I made it from an old pressure cooker; no pressure; but it makes a heavy base that won't fall over; it has a 3 foot piece of PVC pipe on it.
So, the answer is, very easy.

We have 3 rifles backed up waiting on prep work or stock inletting. Wanted to do the steaming outside

PS

Lived in Omaha, Ne (Offutt) for 3+ years. Never been so hot and humid in summer and cold in winter b4.

I don't know if Gun Goddess Olde English Rust Bluer is still being made or not, but I have used that for a few hobby projects and it too works real real well.

P. S. Its been 90 degrees and higher for the last week here in Minneapolis.

Rust bluing is not as easy if you live in Arizona, its 104 today with 8% humidity.
Water has a tendency to evaporate before it turns to steam.

Make sure you post a picture of the rifle when you get it done. Is it an original, or one you built?

There must be some reason why everyone here moves to Arizona when they retire. None of them rust blue.

You need to make a sweatbox from an old moving wardrobe. Hang the treated steel from the cross bar and put a tea kettle on a hotplate in the bottom. Bring to a boil and close the box up. 1 hr max should do it. When you stick your head in you'll know what its like in SC during the summer!

quote:

Originally posted by Rolland:
Rust bluing is not as easy if you live in Arizona, its 104 today with 8% humidity.
Water has a tendency to evaporate before it turns to steam.

Bob
www.rustblue.com

Bob
I spent the first year of my Army service in South Carolina, was either freezing or sweating with a million bug bites. That is why I came back to Arizona.

OMG, you must have been at Ft. Jackson. Hottest place in the state. Yep, you just have to create a little bit of SC in a box.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Ok, this is not a question; it is to tell everyone how easy Rust Bluing is, in the Midwest, in the summer. Since we have temps of 95, and humidity of 90% every day (many people do not realize how bad it sucks to live here; worse than Florida in the summer and worse than Alaska in the winter.) But I am stuck now.
Anyway, use Bobster's American Formula. Clean steel with laundry detergent and scrub it with a scotch bright pad; that etches the surface. Swab on blue solution with a cotton ball, a very small one; if you get too much solution on, it will streak. Wear rubber gloves or it will eat your skin off.
No need for a damp cabinet; It will rust almost immediately. I'm working on a. Lee Speed 375 now, and Yesterday I put two coats on. left to rust over night; don't worry, it won't etch too much; but if you want a shiny finish, don't leave it that long.
I steamed it for 20 minutes today; ONE time is enough; it is dead black and even. I carded with a piece of old bath towel; if you want it shiny, you will need to use steel wool. I wanted a more Matte finish to match the rest of the metal. I just did the barrel. Black stuff comes off in long thin flakes. It's converted rust; Ferric to ferris, or vice versa.
Wash it in clean hot water, and I use Linseed oil on it.
That's it. If anyone wants a picture of my steamer, let me know and I will post one. I made it from an old pressure cooker; no pressure; but it makes a heavy base that won't fall over; it has a 3 foot piece of PVC pipe on it.
So, the answer is, very easy.

Just a couple things...if you screed with steelwool and intend to do multiple applications you must de-grease your steel wool. As it comes from the hardware store it is covered in oil. Depends on the grade but some of the coarser steel wools can be unwound and draped over a something non-flammable outside and just set it on fire and the oil will burn off. Or you can degrease it with like brake cleaner.

Same problem can happen wit cotton balls. Many cosmetic q-tips and cotton balls from the drugstore are treated with lanolin. You need to buy them from a source where they are untreated as the lanolin will mess with your operation.

quote:

Same problem can happen wit cotton balls. Many cosmetic q-tips and cotton balls from the drugstore are treated with lanolin. You need to buy them from a source where they are untreated as the lanolin will mess with your operation.

Best information I've seen posted in quite some time. Likely explains some of my mess.

If you are using handy Kitchen type paper towels to wipe parts off, hold on to them to avoid finger prints, etc while rust bluing, you may be contaminating the surfaces with them.

Many of the rolled paper towels sold for home use in the kitchen are treated with small amts of perfume, some with soap that activates with moisture.
Many are color accent printed which can bleed onto the surface depending on what chemical it comes in contact with.

They are made as 'green' as possible but even those matr'ls can be a contaminate when it comes to rust bluing.

The plain somewhat coarse brown folded paper towels are about the best to use.

Steel wool de-oiling can be a problem. Trying to burn it off has always resulted in a burned up piece of steel wool in my experience. The stuff burns real well..

Buy some de-oiled steel wool and use that. It's a small price to pay to get to a nice rust blueing job.
Why ruin a $300 bluing job to save a couple bucks on a steel wool pad.
Better yet get a carding wheel and hook it up.

Scotchbrite can work but will leave scratches even with the finest grade if you are not careful. It is handy to scuff a blemish, streak or discoloration area down while bluing and then recoat and continue. The area will 'catch up' in the next cycle or two and blend right back in.
Dispose of that small piece of Scotchbrite used to scuff the damage area down. Don't reuse it on the metal anywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by 2152hq:
If you are using handy Kitchen type paper towels to wipe parts off, hold on to them to avoid finger prints, etc while rust bluing, you may be contaminating the surfaces with them.

Many of the rolled paper towels sold for home use in the kitchen are treated with small amts of perfume, some with soap that activates with moisture.
Many are color accent printed which can bleed onto the surface depending on what chemical it comes in contact with.

They are made as 'green' as possible but even those matr'ls can be a contaminate when it comes to rust bluing.

The plain somewhat coarse brown folded paper towels are about the best to use.

Steel wool de-oiling can be a problem. Trying to burn it off has always resulted in a burned up piece of steel wool in my experience. The stuff burns real well..

Buy some de-oiled steel wool and use that. It's a small price to pay to get to a nice rust blueing job.
Why ruin a $300 bluing job to save a couple bucks on a steel wool pad.
Better yet get a carding wheel and hook it up.

Scotchbrite can work but will leave scratches even with the finest grade if you are not careful. It is handy to scuff a blemish, streak or discoloration area down while bluing and then recoat and continue. The area will 'catch up' in the next cycle or two and blend right back in.
Dispose of that small piece of Scotchbrite used to scuff the damage area down. Don't reuse it on the metal anywhere.

All good points. Surgical gloves are cheap. Buy the un-powdered at the pharma. Clean and contaminate free is how the metal needs to be before and during the actual bluing process. The rust blue process really isn't difficult. It's the polishing and cleaning that can really mess ya' up. I have seen so many poor polishing jobs over the years. Over buffed to the point of numbers, letters and sharp corners destroyed. Ripples beyond belief, and the 'marks' left from the previous grit left behind. Polishing is where the real skill lies.

Degrease steel wool with Xylene; it will remove all oil from everything, and is so good it is banned in California. I use lots of it in my MV painting. It is the only solvent that actually works.
Do not use scotch write to card; it is too coarse.
If you are buying cotton balls treated with anything, then you should buy the absolute cheapest brand. Bag of 500 for $2. I have never had any treated with anything.
Polishing? Never actually polish (buff) any steel that will be rust blued, with any type of polishing wheel or compound. Use abrasive paper and un treated belts. Never actually polished or buffed. That is a common reason why failures occur; you have to try hard to make it not work. After all, it's rust. Fine grained, even, rust.
And here in the summer, like SC, it will rust all by itself, and damn near turn black too; that is why they grow corn here.

My 2c .. fast and cheap is well, fast and cheap.

polish the metal by hand with emery backed by something flat, down to at least 400 grit, using water and simple green to prevent clogging (and this also gets rid of oil). if you don't go through the grits, you won't get a good finish. any little scratch or pit will show up badly when done. pits usually require draw filing first.

polish lengthways .. the english figured that out.

rust twice on the first cycle .. 1 hour is way too fast and will produce a coarse finish, 6 hours per cycle is about right and you can get 3 cycles done per day; you need to do 6 cycles total esp on "hard" steel like bottom metal and some bolt bodies so plan to spend at least 2 full days without distraction. the subsequent rustings take longer and longer. so you need to start at a lower temp/humidity, and work up. if you don't have something to control the climate, you need to watch the weather forecast and catch a warming trend. rusting will slow down at night so you can stretch to 8 hours overnight.

use 000 steel wool degreased and rub lengthways .. rubber gloves will not stand up to this so you need cotton gloves for the carding step.

if using a dunk tank, you must use deionized water. steam any old water is ok as the steam will be pure h20. in a tank you must degrease the internals as well or the grease will float on top and coat your items when you remove them.

keep acid out of bore .. don't try to rust the crown. that should be polished bright at the end. some plug the bores with wood or rubber but I think that is asking for rust to form where the plug touches the metal. boiling the bore won't hurt it as long as you keep the acid out of it. if it's a precision rifle, then degrease bore and coat with clear polyurethane on a patch; scrub this out at the end with solvent.

and it's not worth the effort to go through the steps that many times unless you are doing at least 4 items together. pay someone $400 if you just have one item to do.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:


Polishing? Never actually polish (buff) any steel that will be rust blued, with any type of polishing wheel or compound. Use abrasive paper and un treated belts. Never actually polished or buffed. That is a common reason why failures occur; you have to try hard to make it not work. After all, it's rust. Fine grained, even, rust.
And here in the summer, like SC, it will rust all by itself, and damn near turn black too; that is why they grow corn here.

Excellent points.

Polishing compound is held in a stick by animal or mineral grease. When you polish metal this grease gets pushed into the metal pores. The only way to remove it is by boiling in degreaser. Like you would do prior to caustic bluing. That kinda defeats the purpose of home rust bluing.

Yes, I have observed coated metal to actually turn black prior to steaming when placed outdoors during the summer.

Bob
www.rustblue.com

I didn't figure I was doing it properly, as I make sure all pits are removed, polish to 320g, de-grease then flush with denatured alcohol and begin the rusting process. Been doing it that way for 30+yrs and have satisfied countless clients who actually know what they are looking at.. didn't just decide to 'learn' on my own, bothered to attend (and graduated) from MCC 2yr gunsmithing program. That is the way I was taught, and it has not fail me. You can blue any old POS and turn it blue, but a pitless, ripple free surface, with the polish running the proper direction, all lettering & numbers unmolested, and all corners/edges unmolested as they came from the factory is the goal. The final finish should be "better than factory".

I still do not recommend using a buffing wheel and compound for everyone else. There are easier ways to do it. Yes, I see you have learned how to overcome the potential pitfalls.
As always, everyone is free to do anything however they want.

If you don't have an old moving wardrobe box and plan to make something how big does the box need to be? Can you use the same pvc tube that you use for the bluing process?

Yes, or do what I do in the winter; hang them from the shower curtain rod and run some hot water in the tub. Close the door.
It will piss off your wife, though.

I pissed the wife off decades ago and she left. That's not a problem.

My simple set up Maybe $125 total set up

My first rust bluing was the hot water tank in 1960 with the Baker's bluing formula made up at the local drug store.

This steam tube is the best way to learn and after about 3 coats and wire wheeling off you are finished. Small parts are in a tea strainer at the middle joint.

I got to where I coulld rust blue in Idahos hot dry weather and it took me a long time. I still have my sweat box..but Im sure of one thing even includes the so called pros, the best rust bluers do it every day for a living and the more they do the better they get, and they earn every penny..

My take is send the gun to the experts, get an old world rust blue that will last two life times, and pay the 300 bucks, thats a bargain!!

Ok, the reason I started this thread was to say that, for the average guy on an average rifle, (and we are not talking about the $5-10K customs that the pros make or $20K double rifles here), there is no reason to spend the $300 to $400 for a rust blue job that the pros get. It is simply not necessary to spend $400 on a $400 rifle.
Not for the pros; they already know how to do it and there is more than one way.
Using Bobster's solution and the steam method, anyone with any modicum of skill, can put a passable rust blue job on steel.
If I didn't already know how to do it, I would learn.
It is not some mystical, magical process; It's rust.

I am with Dpcd on this type of bluing. Most of the articles I have written are for the beginner to understand how some of us have made a living with our on equipment. The prep of metal has been covered many times on the AR forum and we all seem to use about the same things with the rust bluing prep. The bluing in the dry areas would probably blue just fine with the hot steam coming up the tube and allowing it to escape out the top area with some holes to let the steam keep coming up. I have used the 1/2 joint area for small parts with the stainless tea strainer.

The same things I have written on stock making is basic way to help people get into this trade. In the late '50's I wanted to learn more and most gunsmiths would not tell me what I wanted to know. I read all books on gunsmithing that I could order in 1958 from Steogers to study. We were stationed up on the border waiting for the Russians to push us out of Germany. I got a basic knowledge of how things were done back then, but never found anything of pipe steam bluing.

Dpcd I hope you are keeping your notes on what you know on gunsmithing. As you get older you need to pass along this knowledge as a book for gunsmithing coming later after we are gone. The DVD or USB drives has been sent to lots of people with my own ways of gunsmithing. If you think a price for making these is too much then try to make these and you will have to agree that it is a losing project. If I wasn't retired I couldn't allow time needed to write up me experiences.

Les Brooks, retired gunsmith

You know more than I ever will and of course, your name is well known and respected; and have already done a great job at documenting your ideas on DVD. I actually built my duplicator from your plans, modified a bit.
But you are right, of course.
The sad part, I find here at least, and there are two guys who have been to GS school; they don't want to learn the old ways, such as building Mausers and wood stocks, and lack patience to do the fine work. They want to work on black guns. They said the same thing in 1890; these young'uns are obsessed with the new fangled brass cartridge guns and no one wants to work on my flintlock any more.
Which is why I build Flintlocks too.

"polishing" /= buffing with a wheel
it means using emery paper with some kind of fluid
you do it lengthways.

Dpcd I found it very interesting that you did 2 rustings then 1 steam pass. How many hours for each rusting? I know you said overnight but.
I always convert after each rusting cycle.
Sounds like you have a good way to get the job done with the least amount of work which I like!

This was a very unusual job and certainly not the typical way I do it. I usually do put two coats on it before steaming. Also it is my rifle and I just needed to do the barrel. It was so humid that I decided to try an experiment; put the first coat on at 1600; second on at 2000 because there was a little streak. It turned brown very fast; I steamed it early the next morning; perfect results after one steaming so I quit. Now, with Bobster's formula, it is not unusual to have very good results after one cycle. I usually do at least 3.
However, this is NOT for anyone else; please do not try it because if you have issues you will blame me.

When you pay the $300-$400 for rust blue job, 2/3 to 3/4 of that cost is in the metal prep. I don't know of anyone who'll draw file, buff/polish for a discounted rate or for free. The metal prep is the labor intensive part, applying the solution, rusting, steaming/boiling whatever your choice is really pretty easy. Metal prep and de-greasing is where I saw most fail.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
There must be some reason why everyone here moves to Arizona when they retire. None of them rust blue.

That is funny!

I've been really happy with rust blue EXCEPT with a model 12 I did. I always over polish and boil/steam and card just after the solution bites and do multiple coats to try to keep it less matte in the end, so that's part of the problem, but mostly it's that the blue came out purple, b/c of high nickel content I guess. But other than that, pretty easy good results. Really like the steam method over boiling in the enormous tank, too.

Last time I did 2 rifles with water. My buddy made me a stainless tank for boiling. It's 7-ish gallons of water. Took forever to boil.

No more

That tank is way too big! I could scald a hog in less water.
Using the steam tube method uses one quart of water, preheated in a tea boiler, which takes 2 minutes. I got tired of using my tanks too.
Now, I tend to do them on the slightly matte side, which is more forgiving. Also, if you use Xylene to degrease, it will also take one minute; that stuff will dissolve anything, including your liver.
And, my thrust here, is to show the average guy that, they can put a respectable and lasting blue job on anything themselves; they aren't going to spend 400 on their Savage 22 anyway, so Professionals; they aren't taking work from you. And while it does take a bit of work with paper (don't buff on a wheel), it can be done in a couple of hours; it is not as intimidating as they make it out to be; hell I do it all the time. (Ok, all the corn here makes it a Sauna for 6 months of the year). The guy in the kitchen is not charging $90 per hour, so that's why it costs so much.
So, Pro Gunsmigths; relax; no one is taking work from you. And Amateurs; yes you can do it.
It will work; you need Xylene and humidity, even in Arizona! Those are my trade secrets. And Bob's solution, which works better than others I have tried and I have used them all since 1968. How about Herter's Perfect Belgian Blue. Tried it.

having rained for 10 of the last 16 days in the Dallas - Houston corridor - and yesterday was 98 with 100% humidity .. rusting is EASY ..

I've rust blued in WI. WY. WA and CA. I needed a rust cabinet in WY and where I lived in N. CA.

Never had a need in WI or here n the Pacific NW. PLENTY humidity!

Point is that one must find the method and rust blue formula that works with your location.

I've mentioned it before, but again, Xylene IS as great degreaser, but be damn careful! A hazmat suit would be appropriate

If I blue a barrel/action together, do I need to worry about the acid getting into the threads and gluing them together forever? Maybe I can boil the unit for a few minutes?

That won't happen, and don't plug the bores either. You aren't sloshing it on; you just use a damp cotton ball. Too much/uneven solution on the steel will guarantee streaks.
Boiling is what we are trying to avoid so you don't do like Rich did and boil half a keg of water.
I use one quart.

Good- What I wanted to hear!

One thing you might get with rust bluing an action w/bbl attached is IF there was some oil or grease applied to the bbl threads prior to installing the assembly, that grease can liquify and seep out during the boiling process.
That can spoil the new blue right around the bbl/frame joint sometimes and leave you with an unblued ring at that juncture.

Sometimes it happens from oil that has penetrated the joint over time from maint of the gun as well. The heat of the boiling makes it run back out.
The oil then also contaminates the water and boiling tank so it can get on the other parts being boiled.

I almost always do the parts separately then reassemble.

If doing a cold rust blue there's a little less chance of the whole thing happening as the boiling or steaming is done and then the entire part is cooled down, carded and coated with soln again to rust.

With Express Rust, the part needs to be warm in the first place for the application of the soln, then into the boiling water and out to be carded, then reheated if necessary for the next coating and so on.
The parts never cool down through the entire process so any grease or oil in the joint has quite a while in a high temp condition to get runny and spoil the bluing on you.

Jerry, I clean the joint well and paint in 2 coats of clear lacquer. Then use lacquer thinner to clean up the adjacent areas to be blued. the lacquer will seal the joint and prevent wicking of oil.

Bob
www.rustblue.com

quote:

Originally posted by jerrymontgomery:
If I blue a barrel/action together, do I need to worry about the acid getting into the threads and gluing them together forever? Maybe I can boil the unit for a few minutes?