quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:

Boiling is what we are trying to avoid so you don't do like Rich did and boil half a keg of water.
I use one quart.

Yes, all of the major factories and armories used steam to convert. No way they were going to boil hundreds of gallons of water when they could just open up a main steam line into a steel box.

Haven't seen anyone mention the "fuming" method in some time. Believe Pilkinon used it ( enclosed cabinet with little caps of bluing solution) allowing "fuming".

Tried it a couple times..REALLY have to protect the bore and anything else you don't want rusted. Overall results are were good...but not worth the trouble in my opniion

Didn't mention it because I tried it once; it is way too hard, and just introduces unnecessary pitfalls as you mention. And I was afraid the caustic fumes would escape and ruin every piece of steel in the place.
Now, if you were in production and were rust bluing by the hundreds, like the factories of the 19th century.

I live in Idaho, friend of mine said "How damn long is it going to take you to rust blue my rifle, I gave it to you 90 days ago?? I said "when it rains"

If I lived in Houston, Id just set it out on the back porch for 24 hours, buff it and send it out!

I did a barrel last Saturday using my ripening box and pipe steamer. Managed 4 passes in 6 hrs. It works the same every time no matter the weather.

Bob
www.rustblue.com

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I live in Idaho, friend of mine said "How damn long is it going to take you to rust blue my rifle, I gave it to you 90 days ago?? I said "when it rains"

If I lived in Houston, Id just set it out on the back porch for 24 hours, buff it and send it out!

Bobster, is it necessary to use distilled water in the steamer? Surely any steam produced by boiling is pure H2O regardless of water quality?
Also I like the steamer that uses a wallpaper steamer. You can buy them for $100. Thoughts?
Cheers.

No, it is not. Well water, tap water is OK. The steam is pure when it flashes off. Leaves impurities in the pot. I do let the water boil for 4-5 minutes to make sure any volatiles are evaporated. Yes, I have a steamer attachment on my tube. It is just a nylon barb I installed at the bottom of the pipe to accept the hose from a clothing steamer. I think they are essentially the same thing as a wallpaper steamer.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
Bobster, is it necessary to use distilled water in the steamer? Surely any steam produced by boiling is pure H2O regardless of water quality?
Also I like the steamer that uses a wallpaper steamer. You can buy them for $100. Thoughts?
Cheers.

I have general questions about the steam requirements.
I would think that too much would cause water to condense/form on the steel.
How much steam is required, do you need a steady stream or just a light vapour?
BB

Steady stream; it has to be hot and moving. I use water from the Mississippi River. Which is all we have; works fine.

If you pre-heat the steel prior to introduction into the steam pipe it will raise the dew point so that moisture will not condense on the metal. I just switch out my steam source in the ripening cabinet with an electric floor heater to perform this task. For conversion you need a high volume steam source and slightly vented. It is not operating under any pressure but it is confined. Just like you were steaming veg's with the lid on. For ripening you want light steam, just enough to keep the atmosphere saturated. Think a steamy shower. You also want warm temps. So I use a tea kettle on an electric hotplate. The hotplate gives me heat and the tea kettle the steam.

quote:

Originally posted by bigbull:
I have general questions about the steam requirements.
I would think that too much would cause water to condense/form on the steel.
How much steam is required, do you need a steady stream or just a light vapour?
BB

Thanks Gents, very clear
BB

One caveat: the "correct" rust bluing solutions have some very nasty chemicals in them. Mercury salts for one. It's not a coincidence that many gun restorers end up getting cancer.

aqua regia fumes in an enclosed box.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Haven't seen anyone mention the "fuming" method in some time. Believe Pilkinon used it ( enclosed cabinet with little caps of bluing solution) allowing "fuming".

Tried it a couple times..REALLY have to protect the bore and anything else you don't want rusted. Overall results are were good...but not worth the trouble in my opniion

great discussion!

Speaking of toxic chemicals, I don't think that Bobster's formula has anything harmful in it. He will tell us.
I take a spoonful every day.
(For those who don't get jokes, and there are some here, please do not do that)

Correct. No neuro-toxins like heavy metal salts (mercury, zinc, selenium, etc.). Some of mine do contain copper sulfate but it is not as toxic. You'd have to ingest a large quantity to be harmful. There were plenty of formulas that didn't contain mercury salts. Mine use nitric acid as an etchant and then various metallic salts to promote rust. If you don't want any copper sulfate in it I can compound special formulas for you.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Speaking of toxic chemicals, I don't think that Bobster's formula has anything harmful in it. He will tell us.
I take a spoonful every day.
(For those who don't get jokes, and there are some here, please do not do that)

Does a rust blue solution require an "etchant"? Somehow it just seems strange that one is protecting a metal (their expensive barrel) by etching the steel and then putting rust on it so as to protect the thing from rust.

Etching the parts before rust bluing isn't necessary, but it was often done.

The etching cycle provides a matted somewhat roughened surface not unlike a fine bead blasted effect. That allows the rust bluing soln to take hold more easily in many instances.
It can also hide some polishing and file marks.

One way was to pull the part(s) out of the boiling water tank and quickly wipe over them with a weak hydrochloric or sometimes nitric acid soln.
The hot metal makes the acid soln work quickly and the parts went right back into the water to heat up ready for the first coating of Express Blue.

You can also use the weak Ferric Chloride soln many use in the damascus process. That, used room temp on room temp parts will give about the same effect on the steel.

Keep both out of the bores of course.

Etching with acid was nearly always a must when Express Rust Bluing any parts that were casehardened. 1903 Springfield & Krag rifles come to mind.
With out doing that, the rust blue would still build on the parts, but would often very quickly break down and wear off as well.

Slow rust blue seems to get those casehardened parts blued w/o any etching cycle needed.

Red oxide (rust) is converted to black oxide (not rust) by steaming/boiling. The steam/boil stops the rusting.

No it does not require anything but clean steel and humidity. Strange only if you think of it as rust; but even that, when oiled, will protect steel; look at all the muzzle loaders that are browned; they never rust any more
However, taking that one step further, which is what rust bluing is, you are converting the rust, ferric oxide, with hot water or steam, to another compound, ferris oxide, which is black, is not rust, and will never rust again.
It's chemistry. Or Alchemy, or Sorcery; but it works.

This thread should be a warning to newbies involved in rust blue, particularly old world rust blue, it takes time and effort and hair pulling experience to master...and $300 for a good rust blue is damn cheap, I can do it but I don't, and the best rust blue experts Ive known do it on a daily bases..but if your willing to learn, more power to you...Beware that their are many that claim rust blue and touch it up with cold blue or hot dip..Ive had that happen twice over the years..Bobsters post indicate to me he is top notch..

I remember way way back when we had just arrived home from a 6 month cruise to the Mediterranean. We had to do a paint job on the ship. And the Captain kept coming over the ship intercom to remind us that, in his words, "painting is 90 % preparation and 10 % application".

After reading what Ray had to say I was wondering if that were also true of rust blueing as well. Again, It just seems strange to do a somewhat costly polish job on that new high buck custom rifle and then etch the damn thing to put rust on it so it won't rust.

Absolutely not a warning at all; quite the opposite! The intent of this post is to show/explain just how easy it is for anyone to apply a good rust blue if he or she just follows some very simple guidance. And it is not hard to learn. Not talking about cold blue in any form, here.
Unlike the Navy, rust blue is not 90% preparation; while that is vitally important, it is less than half the battle; as long as you get all the grease off (that is actually a very important part), it will turn black. The resultant sheen/light reflection/texture is a result of how you polished it. By hand; I know, some use a buffing wheel; we've already discussed that.
And yes, you are doing a $90 per hour polish job, and spending a few more hours on the process.
But it is certainly not rocket surgery; anyone can do it; it does take patience.
Which is in short supply I find.
However, this is meant for the guy who wants a good blue on his Remington and it is stupid to spend $400 on a $400 rifle; not for the $10000 custom rifle where another few $ is nothing to the customer. Those guys don't need to even read this.
For those who can't/won't/don't care to learn, the hot salt method is available; polish, and dunk in the salts for a few minutes; it turns black. The difference, especially for the average guy, is that the hot salt method requires a few hundred dollars of equipment, burners, and salts, and will definitely kill you. One drop of the salts on your skin and you will have a scar for life.
And yes, the salt blue method does rust the steel too. It is boiling Lye. Not a secret formula.
Any skeptics; come on over and I'll show you how.

Etchants aren't required but when used in the correct concentration greatly improve the way the chemicals "bite" into the metal without damaging the final product. Copper sulfate acts as a corrosive salt and a rust mediator at the same time. It prevents the corrosion from getting out of control and causing scabbing and deep pitting. If you add up to 5% by weight pure ethyl or methyl alcohol to a small working quantity of solution it acts as a spreader sticker and aids in overall evenness of the finish and also decreases rust grain size to give a finer finish. Don't add to the bottle and cap because it reacts with the acids and releases hydrogen gas. If you do keep the cap loose to vent.

quote:

Originally posted by Kolo-Pan:
Does a rust blue solution require an "etchant"? Somehow it just seems strange that one is protecting a metal (their expensive barrel) by etching the steel and then putting rust on it so as to protect the thing from rust.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:

It's chemistry. Or Alchemy, or Sorcery; but it works.

I will guarantee you that is why rust bluing was a big secret up until the late 1800's. Prior to that if someone saw you rust some iron, steam/boil it and turn it black you would be burned at the stake as a witch!

I have used Bobster’s solutions four times. There have been a few glitches, but I contacted him and overcame the minor problems. He’s very helpful.

I don’t have a lot of gunsmithing skills, yet the result has been a deep and rich, blue-black every time. Very impressed.

If Gun Goddess still available? I haven't messed with rust bluing in 20 years but at the time it was the best acid formula I found.

I live in south Louisiana, so my porch is my 'sweat box.'

quote:

If Gun Goddess still available?

You could try calling to see.

Half Moon Rifle Shop.490 Half Moon Road, Columbia Falls Montana 59912

(406) 892-4409

Let us know what you find out.

The proprietor of Half Moon Rifle Shop and the maker of Gun Goddess, was Jim Baiar. Jim passed away in 2019.

I recall reading somewhere that his grandson, Michael, is(was) producing Gun Goddess.

quote:

Originally posted by Kolo-Pan:

You could try calling to see.

Half Moon Rifle Shop.490 Half Moon Road, Columbia Falls Montana 59912

(406) 892-4409

Let us know what you find out.

I called the number you listed and got what sounded like a residential voicemail. I tried to find info on Jim Baer’s grandson picking up Gun Goddess and couldn’t find anything.

Just get the bluing solution from Bobster. It works. I've used many others from Herters to Pilkingtons.

quote:

Just get the bluing solution from Bobster.

I just looked at his website; I'm glad to see a ready source for rust bluing, but also a little confused.... I see American, British, French, German, Swedish and French formulas listed. If Bobster is still watching this thread hopefully he can provide a rundown of the practical differences between the various formulas he offers.

The different formulas are re-creations of old armory/industrial formulas. When I opened the business in 2013 it was geared to the milsurp collector who wanted to use a chemical as close to the original as possible. There are differences in tint. American, Swiss, and French lean to the black side with a little blue hue. The hue is quite dependent on the degree of polish prior to bluing. The higher the polish the bluer the appearance. It is actually an optical illusion. German, Damascus, Swedish, lean grayish blue. Frontier Brown can be steam converted to a deep black. The formulas were developed to blue the steels in the milsurps and commercial guns of that country.

quote:

Originally posted by belaw:

quote:

Just get the bluing solution from Bobster.

I just looked at his website; I'm glad to see a ready source for rust bluing, but also a little confused.... I see American, British, French, German, Swedish and French formulas listed. If Bobster is still watching this thread hopefully he can provide a rundown of the practical differences between the various formulas he offers.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
The different formulas are re-creations of old armory/industrial formulas. When I opened the business in 2013 it was geared to the milsurp collector who wanted to use a chemical as close to the original as possible. There are differences in tint. American, Swiss, and French lean to the black side with a little blue hue. The hue is quite dependent on the degree of polish prior to bluing. The higher the polish the bluer the appearance. It is actually an optical illusion. German, Damascus, Swedish, lean grayish blue. Frontier Brown can be steam converted to a deep black. The formulas were developed to blue the steels in the milsurps and commercial guns of that country.

Great info- if I just want to rust blue a nice hunting rifle that was hand polished (stoned) to 320 and want a fine textured blue-black finish, which formula would you recommend?

American Formula with a fine wire carding wheel will do it.

Yes; I use the American Formula from Bobster.