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If you install a new barrel to an action for a customer, what does the installation price include? I assume it includes threading and fitting the barrel and chambering and headspacing...but does it also include: 1. tightening the barrel to the action 2. test firing 3. Cut to length 4. Crown the muzzle 5. polish the barrel for bluing 6. stamping the cartridge nomenclature on the barrel just wondering what a guy has a right to expect when he pays for a new "barrel installation". /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | ||
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All the above, plus bluing on chrome-moly barrels, unless other arangements are made. Bill | |||
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Dear Vapodog, As Bill said--all of the above. I also include squaring the front of the receiver shoulder. I consider this essential to getting the customer accuracy. Squaring the bolt etc is extra. Aloha,Mark When the fear of death is no longer a concern----the Rules of War change!! | |||
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If you hired me to install a barrel, the basic package would include squaring the torque shoulder, lap lugs, thread, chamber, headspace, crown, test fire and provide the customer a fired case. The cost of the barrel, finish work, special throating, sights etc., is priced separately. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Of the three gunsmiths I use up here in the Northwest all this is included in a basic barrel job. I also ask them to mark the underside of the barrel as to the maker of the barrel (Hart, Lilja, Shilen, etc.)and the neck diameter. I end up with several switch barrel rifles and use to struggle with which barrel I had on the action from season to season. Usually the polishing is to get the steady rest marks off the barrel. I shoot mainly stainless barrels that I don't blue. FWIW The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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polish isn't part of a batrrel install, unless bluing is requested jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I think you also owe the customer a reasonable estimate of the accuracy a barrel should produce, unless the customer furnishes his own or requests a blank brand that you have never used before. | |||
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That's a little above and beyond the call of duty don't ya think? Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Given the variance of opinion of exactly what constitutes a "Rebarreling job" It's easy to see why there is so much variance in prices of rebarreling! The guy in Minnesota that has done my rebluing also stamped the cartridge on the barrel and polished the barrel but charged more if he had to do inordinate polishing.....apparantly he believed the majority of the polishing should be done before the barrel is installed. I've had some extremely poor barrels for finish from Douglas lately and was wondering if the barreling job included the polishing of the barrel and stamping of the cartridge. Apparartly it's up to the customer to know that a barreling job may or may not include some or all of these things including bluing so he knows what else needs to be done afterwards....or knows what he's paying for.....essentially stated: There is no standard of "barreling" that a customer can expect when he asks for a new barrel installed.....he must ask in advance! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Stamping the barrel for the correct caliber is standard practice. If the customer has a special request, or, a special type engraving for marking the caliber then that is usually an extra charge. It is up to the gunsmith to explain to the customer every aspect of the job, and let the customer know what he can expect as far as additional work that may be required on the rebarrel job. This should be standard practice. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Is there any kind of law or regulation that require a Gunsmith to mark a barrel as to caliber? Or is it just a matter of custom to do so?..........................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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the ATF says the caliber has to be marked on the barrel and has minimum size requirements for the marking | |||
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What is that? (If anyone knows off hand and what is the normal stamp size for factory barrels?) Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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The minimum height is 1/16", with minimum depth of .003" | |||
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but location is unspecified LOL opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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It's suppose to be plainly visible. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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This is the first I've heard of this. How long has this been regulation? Jason "Chance favors the prepared mind." | |||
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Cool, though the only regs I can find that state this are for importer license holders, manufacturers, and importers, as defined in the GFA, and even what FONT can be used.. The font says it has to be times roman or courier, NOT SCRIPT.. but, of course, the GCA defines these roles very very very explicity, and gunsmith markings are not very well defined, though following the tougher rules is generally not a bad idea. I cna't find any reg, but perhaps someone can point those to me on the ATF website or in a manual, that says that gunsmiths MUST mark in a defined location. I would love to be wrong here jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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An installed barrel is an end product, fiered, stamped and finnished. That is why I do not operate with a standard price, but gives one to each customer for their request. Some want their actions tuned, some don't, but I make sure they know the difference. I liked Westpacks gimmic of a fired case for the customer, thanks for the idea! Oh, and I always cut of the end of the barrel with the stamping to give the customer, so he know the barrel installed is the one he pays for! Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Actually Bent, I fire two rounds. I keep one on file and give one to the customer. The one I keep is stored with the customers name, make, caliber, serial number and date of test fire in case there is ever a dispute on anything arising from chamber finish to headspace. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Good one, Westpack, but if a customer - after having recieved a perfect case when picking up the gun - comes back two years later and claimes the chamber is way off, I'm going to tell him to take a flying you know what to you know were. With great satisfaction. But I know The US is another place. Have you ever had the need for the saved case? What a world we live in.... Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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No, but should it happen, the case I have on file is "Alternate plan (B)". I can't comment on what my (A) plan is because I am pretty sure it IS illegal here.  _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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About 5 Years ago I ran into (would like to run over him) a "gunsmith" in the NY/PA border area that (was recogmended by a former poster on this and a couple of other boards) 1) Didn't tighten the barrel (snug only) 2) Claimed to have test fired it (questionable) 3) Barrel was left full length 4) Yes, but not as specified (was asked to replacate the style of crown that was on origional barrel) 5) Cold blued directly onto the Shilen factory finish 6) Nope (claims he forgot) 7) Set the headspace to +.011, and cut the throat to +.0035 over bullet diameter I took the resulting mess to my regular gunsmith, who bobbed a inch off the chamber end and recut the chamber and than redid the crown and stamped the chambering information onto the barrel. | |||
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Not at all. If the barrel is a cheapo the guy should be told what to expect. If you think it will keyhole you are risking your reputation by installing a piece of crap. If you just put a piece of junk on a guy's rifle who is to blame? You know more about it than him... or do you? If you are gunsmith you should know more than he does. I know of at least one guy that could not hit anything with his new .257 TCU barrel. I asked him if he checked the bore diameter. He tried a .25 caliber bullet and it dropped through onto the floor. Turns out it was a 6.5 TCU that had been mis-marked. I have had to send a rifle back to a major manufacturer because it would not shoot better than 18" inch groups. The barrel band and front sight had been installed so tightly that they had formed constrictions in the bore. That company has made millions of rifles and they should have known what causes the problem. I found the constrictions by pushing a .458 lead ball through the bore. | |||
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ireload2, I understand a rifle barrel that shot 18" groups would need to be replaced, but what you're saying sounds like an accuracy guarantee . Am I wrong? Maybe I read it wrong. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Not a guarantee... Just a reasonable assessment of what to expect. What should I expect from a mechanic if he puts a another engine in my truck? It depends on the engine. He should be able to tell me. If he can't tell me what to expect he should say so. | |||
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The engine should run and the gun should shot, but other than saying it should shot or run (gun or car) what more can you expect without a guarantee? and without a guarantee why is it anymore than lip service? And why do we always compare auto mechanics to gunsmiths? Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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A smith can do everything exactly right and a rifle will still not shoot on occassion. Bum barrels are put out by even the finest makers. Granted they are rare indeed but they do happen. Sometimes they scope out well, and pass all the QC checks but still won't shoot. A very bad analogy could be two identical factory rifles. One of which will shoot better than 1/2 MOA the other won't shoot 2 MOA. Both made from the same components. If you want a guarantee, then ask for one. | |||
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I've seen quite a few with laser etched data and some with sand blasted data and even some chemical etched data but I seriously doubt that any of them was .003 deep. | |||
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Rick Frudenberg in Everett will barrel your rifle with all the above included and take the rifle to the range and work up a load for you. It's his way to prove accuracy. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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I will, most shops will, but it costs extra. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Neither are required to have any professional accreditation to offer their services to the public. There is no requirement of ethical behavior or competency for them to practice their trade. Even the girl that cuts my hair has to have a state certificate showing some degree competency. | |||
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"The engine should run and the gun should shot" That means the engine could idle on only 6 cylinders instead of 8. It also means the gun will go bang but does not mean it will not keyhole. | |||
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The same could be said about politicians and a 1000 other trades, but what does any of that have to do with a new barrel installation? -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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What do the 1000 other trades have to do with new barrel installation? Any moron can call himself a gunsmith. Just ask any gunsmith or anyone that has paid for gunsmith services more than a few times. | |||
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Okay, time to summarize. According to you, your gunsmith should tell you how the rifle is going to shoot before he does the work even though it's not a guarantee and he has no control of how or what you shoot in the gun. By the answer he gives you'll be able to tell if he's a real gunsmith or a moron that calls himself a gunsmith. And last but not least, if I had paid for gunsmithing services more than just a few times I would be able to tell too. If I ever actually hire a real gunsmith I'm sure this thread will come to mind.  Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I've often wondered about this "working up a load" service. What happens if the guy finds out that your 30-06 shoots MOA or better with a light charge of Reloader and a 150 grain Sierra Gamekings but no better than 3 MOA with anything else and you want to use the thing for Trophy Elk?  | |||
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I wonder just how many gunsmiths actually offer a written warranty of accuracy for simply installing a barrel.....there's way too many variables that can come to play after that! And of those that do....how much better warranty do you offer when installing a Krieger barrel compared to a Douglas? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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THe typical rebarrelled rifle is better than the typical shooter. How many shooters who get a rifle rebarreleld even own wind flags? How many own real rear rests? How many own real front rests? The typical shooter is doing good to have that POS Outers front rest at best. Many roll up a towel or coat and shoot across the hood of a truck. How many have measured the run out in reloaded ammo? How many actually know how to measure group sizes and truly calculate the average? How many actually know how to shoot a sub 1/2 MOA group-and I don't mean what is usually shown here as proof "if I do my part" groups? Knowing all of this, how in the hell can a smith "gurantee" accuracy? I am serious-I really want those who think there should be a"warranty of accuracy" to tell me how YOU gurantee accuracy in rifles YOU rebarrel for other people? It seems like there is just one person calling for a gurantee, and he is known to stir up the pot on a regular basis. Please Mr. Ireload, tell me about the accuracy gurantees you offer on rifles YOU rebarrel. I don't want to hear any theory or "maybes," "might would," "ought tos," and the like. I want to hear real world gurantees that you give on rifles you rebarrel. At the end of the day, all of those factrs have more impact on group size than the brand of barrel. I would rather have the proper shooting equipment (rests, flags, good ammo) with an A&B barrel then have typical shooting equipment and a Lilja barrel. I always tell people if they really want to shoot smaller groups, get a set of wind flags, proper rests, and learn how to use them!!! For whatever reason, people in any hobby think they can buy better skill. Barrel racers just need a different horse, drag raceers need a new cam, shooters need a barrel made by some one with a flashy name. When the operator is the limiting factor in the equation, upgrading equipment won't do much to help you. A little practice goes a long way towards being better at any endevor. | |||
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Marc, I am not a "typical" shooter or a gunsmith. However by my own calculation I have about 10,000 hours making parts and tooling on an engine lathe. That is 10,000 hours of the spindle turning..... There is nothing remotely magic about rebarreling a rifle. If you don't know the usual results of your own work just say you don't know and that you will not guarantee anything. I guarantee that I will test any rifle that I get rebarreled with: 1. A Hart front rest with suitable front bag. 2. A Protector bunny ear rear bag. 3. A 12X or greater scope installed in solid mounts. 4. A good selection of known quality bullets loaded with at least as much care as any gunsmith. I can also slug the bore at the muzzle, at the chamber end and push a slug all the way through to check the uniformity of the bore. If you don't do that you can install a piece of crap and not even know it until you pull the trigger. Marc, It seems that you expect perfect $$$ from your customers but you cannot offer any concrete expectations about the results of your work. | |||
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