quote:

Originally posted by Nathan:
I’m surprised in a world where we have like 100 Rem 700 super clones that we don’t have 1-2 Win 70 super clones and a couple 98 super clones.

When I say super clone, I mean machined from bar stock with tight enough tolerances that you can mail order barrels and triggers.

I would think those would dominate the standard range custom hunting rifle market.

The Rem 700 was designed from day 1 to be produced at the lowest cost possible with modern manufacturing.
Tube receiver, lugways through and smaller than the barrel minor thread diameter, multi piece bolt assembled with brazing and pins, recoil washer, sheet metal stampings.

Not so the Mauser or M70.

quote:

Mr Nathan; I explained why you will never see a mag 98 made from bar stock for less than $4000; called supply and demand. Demand will never support the efficiencies of mass production. IE, there are 6 guys in the US who would buy such a product; the rest of us do not need or want one.

Respectfully Mr. dpcd, I disagree. Today in the USA, there are literally 1000’s of custom rifle builds in process. Probably 50% with a Rem 700 action. 10% M70, 10% Tikka, 20% 700 clone, 10% everything else. These are my guesses. Many of these builds, regardless of what gets posted online will be carried a lot and shots under 500 yards.

I think the 50% building on Rem 700’s could be educated about the superiority of the m70 or 98 due to the safety, extractor and ejection. Who in their right mind thinks the Rem 700 is a great action? The extractor is weak, the ejection throws your good brass, the lugs don’t seat due to trigger pressure, etc. I think they often think of m70’s and 98’s as old, not true and having suspect metal. That would be immediately dispelled by a great clone on the market for $1000 to $1400. Look how ARC is doing with their mausingfield.

If the pattern becomes established, McMillan/Manners will inlet for it.

All that said, a double square bridge Mauser 98 with Rem 700 pattern trigger w/o safety, QD scope mount, M70 type safety, BDL bottom metal with optional drop box, checkered straight bolt handle, built true of modern metal. I think I would build 3 lengths. 3.0”, 3.7” and something Rigby sized. The Rigby would be such a small volume deal, it could command a higher price.

So, you say I should hang my shingle out.....well, it would take me 10 years and likely a divorce to get up to speed to do that.

quote:

Originally posted by Nathan:
couple 98 super clones.

When I say super clone, I mean machined from bar stock with tight enough tolerances that you can mail order barrels and triggers.

I would think those would dominate the standard range custom hunting rifle market.

one might think so, but every time it's been a failure - you can't make boutique/niche products at scale and at a low price point.


Empire Rifle made AMAZING actions - both in safari style and tactical add ons - CNC machined from the finest steel -

Dumolin - (okay, not the greatest action) but had to be sold basically at cost

the truth is the m70 is a better starting point for 99% of the budgets in question --

(though the ruger is an even better place to start)

here you go.
GREAT mauser (let's say 38 postal) $400
trigger $150
bottom metal 1909 $250
straddle floorplate $100
3 position safety $250
gun smithing (bolt, feeding, squaring, drill scope holes, stoning) $500
$1450
no barrel, sights, stock, bedding, or bluing
want square bridges - add $$$

new m70 - $1000 give or take

new ruger 77 WITH square bridges about the same.

or, to be back on point with this topic, you can buy a ruger rsm from 1500-2000

Nathan,
On m70 vs m700 -- it depends on one's purpose... though if *I* where to build a hunter class bench rifle, i would start with one of the ugliest actions -- the m788 -- due to locktime

it all depends on the mission (says a @$#$#$ pilot)

accuracy
in general, a new m700 will result in a more accurate rifle .. though, frankly, the new savages are amazingly accurate out of the box

better CRF - frankly, i prefer the ruger over the winchester, but that's why there are horse races - if one needs a ready to go rifle, the m70 is an obvious choice .. and not even MAUSER makes an affordable competitor to the m70 - but nearly EVERY military rifle made today is pushfeed

bespoke rifle - this is there the choice comes into play -- These are different than a customized m700 getting a rebarrel - this price point makes the difference -- having $1500 bucks into a custom m700 doesn't hold a candle to a $6500 full build.

What problem are we trying to solve here? A 375 H&H will fit in a Mauser 98 if you know how with 3 down; and just about any ctg will fit in a p14 with 4 down.

If all you guys think it is such a great investment idea and will result in a "viable going concern", then pony up your own capital to start the business.
I am not holding my breath; Jeff said it all.
A standard 98, while yes it can be opened up for a H&H, is not optimum. Even 404; yes I have done them.

Tom,
I don't like longer than 3.35" in a mauser - one need only look at all my AccRel carts, and the 550 express - all of which i've built on mauser, m700, and rugers

I have done HH length on mausers - it's not that much work, if you take it all out of the back, but I don't like it.

Enfields? while I haven't done the "screw on/off" barrel approach to making a 50 bmg on one (it's been done, i HATE the idea) I have built nearly everything on enfields - Jim's work, the PDF on making the Gibbs gunsmithing was amazing...

The limit to mausers and big carts is usually WIDTH not length -

Want a magnum mauser length action? Just buy the @#$@#$@ CZ550, add a 3 pos safety and a trigger (though *I* like the single set trigger on most of them) and be done with it.

and Not even CZ (which is cheap cheap for a starting point) can make price point on big mausers.

but, remember, I am an engineer, pilot, gunsmith, and NOT an artist - occasionally one of my stocks turns out nice, but I am NOT a guild member, nor do I have either the skill or temperament to make works of art.

There are hundreds of guys at some stage of build on www.snipershide.com, there are also hundreds of custom 700s, 700 clones, Sako TRG-S, Savage, Tikka and other guns on snipershide for sale.

In that precision rifle market, custom is the name of the game.

But these guys are building rifles to shoot Precision Rifle Competitions (PRS/NRL). Until about 3 or 4 years ago they would have all made reasonably good hunting rifles 10-13 pound 6.5 Creedmoors and such. Now they are all 20 pound 6mm BR's meant to shoot free recoil.

If there are 30 scratch built magnum 98's being built between, Canada, Britain, Germany and the USA right now I would be amazed.

If a guy has $4000 in an action, and they do another $3500 worth of barrel work, machining, and everything else, and then do a $6500 stock. They are into this bolt rifle for $13000-20,000.

Not many people are doing that.

You can buy a Rigby, Johansen, or Mauser factory 98 used for $6500-15,000 and a new one for about 20% more.

It is a financial problem. Almost everyone can piece meal a 700 clone together $900-1650 for an action, $350-850 for a prefit barrel, $250 trigger, $400-1500 stock or chassis. Buy it over a year and you have a "custom" rifle that will shoot little bitty groups.

The same guy is going to have to sacrifice to build a Magnum 98 or buy one. If he is doing it to take on a buffalo hunt that was already a big purchase, he is going to buy a 700, 70 or 77 in a 375 to 458 factory rifle to take with him and be perfectly happy.

The original question being, the pros and cons of lengthening a Mauser 98 to a magnum length action ,I'm not interested in a M700, a Model 70 ,a Ruger or a cz550.
Just the possibility of making a Mauser 98 to a 505 Gibbs ,Not a super duper custom with the finest walnut ,engraving ,gold ,ivory inlays etc.
Just a nuts and bolts practical working rifle ,I did have an opportunity at getting a Brevex 458 at what I considered reasonable price, but hesitated for a moment, then it was gone.
I dont believe the original M98 505 Gibbs were anything super special, apart from the action and inflated price for them ,because of the name. Gibbs at last quote ,wanted around $22,000.00 for a new one .

There is no con, other than the cost of having someone do it for you.

If you are serious I would buy a Tig welder, get to practicing and start looking for a couple of old Interarms Mark Xs.
They are forged of modern thru hardening steel.
Came with a decent oberdorf style bottom metal you can sell off.
The Interarms were finished better than later importers.
I see them around, and can be had for about $300.
Sell off all the part and pieces you don't need and you won't have much into the donor bolt and receivers.

Assuming you made a long and short you would have to buy bottom metal, $650?? each.
Unless you can cut and weld the bottom metal back up.

This is about the lowest cost you can go, not have heat treat worries/costs and end up with a decent rifle. Obviously not a high end custom, but that isn't what you are shooting for.

quote:

Originally posted by Robertcat:
Just the possibility of making a Mauser 98 to a 505 Gibbs

hmmm, this is a stretch - the case diameter is what, 0.640? that's .05 bigger than a rigby/weathery which is the largest *I* would do on a mauser - and both the weatherby and larger should be single stack - i'll include a link as to why

this is what one uses an enfield for -- and either use a '14 or a '17 with a 14 bolt

Here's Jim Wisner's PDF on making an enfield feed a gibbs
http://weaponsmith.com/images/...d/wisner/feeding.pdf

though, frankly, if you want a franken mauser in gibbs, buy a CZ in gibbs.

Right; use a P14.
As to why there are many 700 clones being made and zero Mausers, it is because the 700 can be made from bar stock, quickly and efficiently, bolt too, on CNC machinery. A 98 requires many more complex machining steps, not to mention the bolt complexity, and you end up with a non rigid receiver that will only sell 8 the first year. Two the second.
Now, I could TIG up a long receiver today and so could many here on AR; but that is the easy part. ....

I know nothing but am following this thread as I have nothing better to do today.

Did any of you ever use the MRC Professional Hunter action to do a build? I believe that was a magnum length square bridge.

quote:

Originally posted by Robertcat:
The original question being, the pros and cons of lengthening a Mauser 98 to a magnum length action ,I'm not interested in a M700, a Model 70 ,a Ruger or a cz550.
Just the possibility of making a Mauser 98 to a 505 Gibbs ,Not a super duper custom with the finest walnut ,engraving ,gold ,ivory inlays etc.
Just a nuts and bolts practical working rifle ,I did have an opportunity at getting a Brevex 458 at what I considered reasonable price, but hesitated for a moment, then it was gone.
I dont believe the original M98 505 Gibbs were anything super special, apart from the action and inflated price for them ,because of the name. Gibbs at last quote ,wanted around $22,000.00 for a new one .

Why not consider the balletically "identical " 500 Jeff? It will fit in a standard 98 plumb swell

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Here is a better idea; take a P14 Enfield and make it look like a Mauser; that I have done. Tang, bolt stop, bridge, weld up safety hole and use a 3 position. I thought about sleeving the ring to 1.4 inch, like a band on a Parrot Rifle.
In fact, I think I will sell that one.

Tell me more. Can you send a photo?

There MAY be photos of a Blackburn/Emmons ACGG project available...Ted did exactly what dcpd is describing

Burgess did a few also....Internet search may turn up something..I did a few myself, but sort of reached the conclusion that a Mauser lengthening project is
the easier way to go

quote:

Originally posted by Robertcat:
The original question being, the pros and cons of lengthening a Mauser 98 to a magnum length action ,I'm not interested in a M700, a Model 70 ,a Ruger or a cz550.
Just the possibility of making a Mauser 98 to a 505 Gibbs ,Not a super duper custom with the finest walnut ,engraving ,gold ,ivory inlays etc.
Just a nuts and bolts practical working rifle ,I did have an opportunity at getting a Brevex 458 at what I considered reasonable price, but hesitated for a moment, then it was gone.
I dont believe the original M98 505 Gibbs were anything super special, apart from the action and inflated price for them ,because of the name. Gibbs at last quote ,wanted around $22,000.00 for a new one .

You could consider a GM action in .505 Gibbs, then build around it to make a good working rifle for under $10K without the labor and screwing around with cutting, welding, special bottom metal, etc.

I have seen a few stretched/shortened actions by (I think) Burgess and Waldren. They were very nice, but all one-off.

Duane ,I have a gunsmith doing a 500 Jeffery for me at the moment ,Jeff thanks for the P14 /M17 info ,I do have a couple of P14s ,one going to be a 500 A2 and the other was to be a Gibbs ,but I cant escape the desire for a M98 magnum 505 Gibbs ,with original bolt shroud and wing safety .
Ive got too many other projects going at the moment ,so I might wait ,and look for a Brevex or Vector ,although alot of them have been screwed with ,different bolt shroud and ''obligatory'' Model 70 safety.
Will have a look at the Granite Mountain action .
Thankyou All .

Neither the Brevex or Vector is built to singe load.
I think GM has now made room to allow for that.

Some don't agree, but I think it's a must have feature.

hmm, i slept since i last talked about this, but weren't ALL the mauser gibbs done on magnum actions, and wwI put the kybash on that contract -

I don't think that any 505 where done on milspec 98s...

i could be wrong