After the sealing coat (in this case a modified varnish) has been applied to a wood stock what is ment by "scrape it back to the wood". What tool is use to scrape off the varnish??

Thanks;
Brett

I read that "scape it back to the wood" statement that someone posted too. I dont know what the hell thats about. If you have a stock sanded down to 320 or even 220 grit with all your detail and crisp edges , why would you take a scaper and scape and put gouges and scratches from a scraper in your stock?

I use some 400 wet or dry paper and sand the top back down to the wood surface and repeat till the grain and pores are filled.

Jeffe & GSP7,

This is from a post by Jack Belk who said that he built up the varnish to seal the wood then "scraped it down to the wood", finished sanded again then built up a final coat of varnish.

Still a bit confused... but thanks for the help.

Brett

I've used a fine scraper like you would use on furniture. Not to be confused with a paint scraper

ramrod,

What does it look like, can you posts a picture??

Thanks;
Brett

http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offer...ADBDB&filter=scraper

If this doesn't link just go to http://www.rockler.com and search for cabinet scraper. They also have several links on that page to instruction. It is simply thin metal then sharpened only on one side. Like when you sharpen only one side of your knife. The curl of metal does the scraping. I grind to different shapes.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
ramrod,

What does it look like, can you posts a picture??

Thanks;
Brett

I've sraped several stocks after a heavy coat of finish. It makes one of the smoothest surfaces I can make and much faster than progressive sanding. I usually use one of several old pocket knives since gunstocks seldom have flat surfaces. A swiss army knive is about perfect

The blade does not need to be sharp but it must be uniform; no snags dents or wobbles. Hold it perpendicular to start and drag it along the finish. Very little to no pressure, you're just taking the extra finish off of the wood. After a short while you get the hang of just the right angle and pressure.

When done right the surface is literally as smooth as glass.

Charles, Thanks for posting the picture. I have several concave and convex curves as well as flat.

Jeffeosso....
Fills pores quicker than a democrate can fill a voting booth from a cemetary.
That was priceless.I will remember it.

Gentleman,

As always thank you for your help. Christal clear now. This site is worth it's weight in gold because of you good folks.

Best regards;
Brett

Belk's method of finishing a stock was to goop thinned spar varnish on the stock keeping it wet for 6-12 hours by continuing to lap on varnish not letting it dry- letting the wood drink all it can... Then set it aside for a month or so to totally dry.
Then scrape the excess varnish off hopefully cutting it level with the pores without 'pulling' any varnish out of the pores- he suggested a dull pocketknife too but a proper hook on a dedicated scraper works wonders if you are careful to avoid gouging. Pick up the sanding at about 400 grit wet. A single pass with a damp swatch of old tee shirt soaked in your chosen topcoat is all that is necessary after that.

Well, I'm not a wood worker but I thought about this a little and decided to spout some s--t. Hope it's true!

After looking at the furniture/woodworker scrapers I think they are heavy enough to create a greater risk of gouging the wood than a good pocketknife. I'm sure there are folks who have that kind of control and expertise but the average Joe like me should remember that a little pocket knife weighs virtually nothing and the varnish takes virtually nothing to scrape. You can do it with a strong thumbnail if you try.

Take a piece of scrap or a dead stock and see what works for you. Remember also that different densities of wood will react differently to the techniques.

DeBee and triggertate,

Thanks again, very helpfull. I've been reading and re-reading his posts trying to really understand them. Now I think I do...

Have you used his Spar Varnish, Watco, Mineral Sprit method? Is it as good as it sounds? Also what do you recommend as a top coat??

Thanks again;
Brett

I haven't done one in while with that technique and at the time was just beginning. I think I used Formsby's tung oil on top just because I had some from a furniure project. The base was some brand or other of marine spar varnish straight from the can. They came out really well and as soon as I get my current projects ready for finish that is how I'll do it but with more modern finishes. Customstox posted some good information about this some time back. If you do a search I think he had some recommendations for products.

I use something thinner that varnish as a soaker coat but thinned varnish can be used. Ottmar did something similar and then after drying for a week, he used Valspar Marine Spar Varnish 3001 with Bakelite with a heavy coat. That dried for a week and was scraped back to the wood surface with scrapers as shown. Scrapers have been around and used for this purpose for a very long time. You can get them from woodcraft along with the equipment to produce and burnish the curl on the edge of the scraper. You need to practice this a bit before you jump into it. The good part is once you get it, it saves a bunch of time over using a mud coat and wet sanding back to the surface.

It is difficult and sometimes near impossible to get it all off but the scrapers are also offered in curved models that help on the concave surfaces. The convex surfaces are scaraped by putting a bow in the scraper as you draw it towards you. It would be very difficult to make a serious gouge in the wood using these tools.

James Krenov, a famous furniture craftsman, used scrapers solely for preparting wood for finishing and never used sandpaper. They essentially work like a plane. I use them dressing new stocks before I sand. I still use the paper but a scraper will give you a good smooth plane on the areas where one is needed. The curved ones also work well in flutes on the nose of the comb and on the curved portion of the cheekpiece.

I'm not certain why, but this thread has annoyed me.

Mainly the uninformed opinion and idle speculation, I guess, and the fact that--reading it back from this perspective--it seems that those in a position of knowledge didn't really write with authority.

Anyway, I'm grateful for Chic's post.

Does it seem like the miasma has cleared?

I'm in no better position to give advice than the rest, except for the fact that I've written a book about antique speedboats, and number among my friends many restorers.

The kind of guys that start out with the equivalent of an apprenticeship?

Wood finishing is a holy art to them, and they rely on scrapers.

Thanks for your post, Chic, and if you feel like rambling on about scrapers, I'd be grateful.

flaco

Miasma, I had to look it up, not typically in my vocab.........but a cool word none the less.


1 : a vaporous exhalation formerly believed to cause disease; also : a heavy vaporous emanation or atmosphere <a miasma of tobacco smoke>
2 : an influence or atmosphere that tends to deplete or corrupt <freed from the miasma of poverty -- Sir Arthur Bryant>; also : an atmosphere that obscures

This thread didn't annoy me at all, until mention that it might be annoying.

There are a thousand ways to skin a cat, and stock finiching is a complicated cat. You have to find through trial and error (oh, the effort required...) the way that works best for you, while at the same time realizing what's working this time may not go that smoothly the next.

If it weren't so wonderfully difficult to achieve consistency, it wouldn't be so worth trying.

...and you're going to have to learn to accept the warts.

I didnt find this thread annoying either, somebody ask a good honest question and some honest answers and comments came back. I think thats why we are here.

Sorry if the rest of us don't meet your standard of approval, flaco.

HEY FLACO,

Since this thread annoys you so much how 'bout you tellin' us how you finish your stocks. I might be impressed. What do speedboats have to do with gunstocks? And BTW, where can I find your book?

Hey Harry,

I think the next one you do, use a prop off an antique speedboat and throw your pocket knife away

Here's project #2. I posted this image earlier. I've been following instructions Bill Soverns posted on another site.



Still, I'd really like to learn how to use scrapers on the finish.

#1. No need to go through that silly whiskering rigamorole. The scraper cuts like a plane.

#2. I'd never go anywhere near a stock with sandpaper and no sanding block or hard felt backing but... seems like even with these, some of the walnut between the streaks is so soft it's hard not to sand too much away.

I loved the idea that you could twist a scraper to conform to an exterior curve. (For those who doubt, really, this is the same problem as "fairing" the hull of a boat. Cutting off the high spots, and making it all smooth. Sorry. Woodwork is woodwork, and scrapers are an advanced technique I'm eager to learn. Thus perhaps my impatience?)

#3. No matter how many Bubbas there are, best perhaps to maintain silence, and avoid confirming ignorance? Sorry... what was I thinking? Silent Bubbas?

#4. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/187930104...nce&s=books&n=507846

flaco

N.B. Thanks, Troble. LOL.

And... don't even think of ordering the book from Amazon. I'd be more than happy to sign a book and get it to you. For a nominal fee.

Even if you're in Texas.

Crackerbox is cool.

flaco

N.B. I didn't right (sic) a book either.

Hey FLACO!!!,

Nice stock. Now that the congratulations are out of the way, I'd just like to say that you seem to be quite opinionated as well as arrogant. Say what, I can't get your book from Amazon? Self published at Kinko's maybe? Oh yeah, is the "nominal fee" for the book or your signature? Bubba this, pal.

craigster-

DUDE?

Does it come up at Amazon, or what?

Seven printings and a French language edition. (Just for you Francophobes. LOL.)

flaco

N.B. I'm hoping, craigster, that "opinionated" is the only characteristic I share with the Bubbas.

Except for maybe love of Mausers. LOL.

Flaco, I either heard or read that if you can do it, it isn't bragging. I can only guess that by the looks of that stock that you are not bragging. Beautiful. A wise man would be quiet at this point.

Flaco, very nice work. Bill Soverns gives a lot of good info out. I know Bill quite and well and he has help me a lot and many others also.

Again, very nice work.

Pretty piece of wood. Nice hi-res picture, also. Too bad about the big gouge under the front receiver ring.

I'm most impressed by the level of conceit. First whining about the quality of information (which was actually very good and interesting) and then telling the Bubbas to be quiet.

flaco, you'd get alot further if you cut down on the pompus blowhard routine...but you would get less attention (and maybe this is the problem).

Why don't you try contributing by sharing what you've learned in producing the finish on the stock you've shown? I'm sure you must have learned something worth sharing.

I suspect we're being had. Not the first time someone stole an internet identity to play games on a forum.
flaco, if you're really Robert Bruce Duncan then put that pic on your homepage so we know your the real deal.

FWIW, the real RBD is a proffesional photographer and that pic is not nearly up to the standards of those on his home page. Too much glare.

I doubt (but can be wrong, but not more than once a year) that RBD would post a much more sophisticated pic.

Well, I don't know anything about speedboats or photography, but I am familiar with flaco from MFRC where he is occaisionally similarly immodest - and thinks that his backhanded insults are too subtle and intellectual to be perceived by the regular folk. Too bad because he seems to be doing some interesting work. The attitude that goes with is hard to take.

HELLO THE CAMPFIRE;
I will stir the pot a little. I finish stocks and do other wood work. I have used scrapers many times to shape and finish wood, particularly highlyfigured wood that will not plane out without tearout. For the most part they will leave a surface that does not need sanding. But on tight grain, or burl, there are areas that a scraper can not cut and the only thing to do is to sand them.
I have used and like to use broken glass not Coke bottles) to scrap a final surface. It also works great to take off an old surface like varnish. A metal scraper MUST BE PROPERLY SHARPENED AND BURNISHED before it dosn't do more harm tha good. Try it out on something other than your fine stock.
On another subject, the latest issue of FINE WOODWORKING MAG. suggestS using pumice mixed with the finish, oil or whatever as a pore filler as it be comes transparent when the finish drys. I don't know if it works as I have always used the wet sanding mud or a comercial filler for this purpose.
Judge Sharpe

Judge, I have used rottenstone to finish pores and it does do that. It is also hell on checkering tools and I would imagine that pumice does the same thing.

miasma is better than smegma

I just finished this stock and used a mixture of bone black and rottonstone to fill in the pours. I think it turned out kinda nice.

Terry

Terry,
tell me how in the heck you got that convex diamond, with a drift on it, to inlet properly? I took one look at Mike D's and nearly cried at the effort to get that ONE piece in place.

Flaco,
I suggest that the way one person does a thing, in the example immediately above, demonstrates that just because it works for you doesn't mean it will work from everyone or that they will use your "advanced" technique. .As you say, "scrapers are an advanced technique" and you also infer, with your position on sandpaper, that sanding isn't. Great.. your position.. noted.. And just what's the difference in using a pocket knife SCRAPER or a glass SCRAPER or a steel one? hmmm.. let's think about that.. control? positioning? techique? finish? Why, they would all be the same.

That you choose not to use sandpaper actually leads to your point number one, in any logical context, as scraping sure doesn't requre one to whisker. Yet, interestingly enough, a scraper doesn't cut like a plane, in any sense of the word. A plane is a what,an 11 degree gouging tool, while a scraper only works with the cutting edge is at or near perpendicular on the cutting surface. A plane is a controlled chisel, a sraper is a not. . However, you have presented bias and opinion as facts, nor are they in sequence with the point you wish to make, that You don't sand, and you do scrape, and you believe scraping is advanced, then you feel that sanding isn't "advanced" , quid pro quo, believe that whiskering is not required IN YOUR PERSONAL "advanced" CASE. Yep, read the answer first, it's easy to create the question

Since "advanced" implies "learned" (in the boston tone of learn-ed) skill in the area, you are actually inplying that most persons (otherwise it would be normal, not advanced) don't have this skill, then you are impling (interesting trick..works about, oh never on anyone past the emotional age of 4) that EVERYONE who doesn't use your techinque, without the associated pedestrian whiskering, is below your skill level without evaluating their results.

and then, in your "plane-to-scraper" analogy, plainly demonstrates your tactical grasp of the jargon of the trade. A rather fine example, for us all to remember you by. The highest demonstration of your adabtability, in demeaning those that don't use EXACTLY the same scraper and techinque that you present as "advanced", is your in ability to say "hey, interesting idea..not my first choice, but obviously one that presents acceptable results"

On your stock, presented as an example of you work, i do have to say, other than the dents under the front ring (the finish doesn't lie.. they are "plane" to see) that would be fixed in seconds with proper sanding, you have fantastic flutes and edges. Great piece of claro, wonderful oranges, reds, fiddleback and grays. you might go ahead and tap that pin all the way into the trigger guard, though.

I do believe you are bruce, as your picture is hosted on your domain. What I don't believe is that such an advanced wood worker, as yourself, would presented these pictures as "high art" rather than "here's my results, what do you think"

I have read a bit on your website. Your views on "high art" are, hmm, interesting, and deeply personal. Not my view, but interesting to read.

BTW, a serious question on your stock, where's the barrel? The left side (on-side,if you know horses) appears to have a couple chips and waves in it, might just be dust on the stock in the photo though. If you like, I can post a picture with the areas that need to be sanded highlighted for you, as the scraping seems to have left the surface a little irregular in places. And everyone likes to be regular.

sorry to have "annoyed" you with the broken coke bottle vingette. perhaps you might read some vintage NRA publications on restoring military rifles, as they "require" retention of someone else's well known detail. Or, with the broken bottle tool being present, they may annoy you as well.

My single statement of my "crossover" knoweledge on boats.. i can drive most, in a pinch, and can fix most outboard engine troubles, and that's IT... wouldn't pretend that inletting a stock has anything to do with taking pictures of a boat, nor my friends abilities to restore them.

While not pointed at flaco, I do recall a funny story.

A young person stood up in a meeting, discussing environmental concerns, then smoothly and clearly stated to the opposing side

"well, my brother is a biologist that went to Rice University, and our opinion on the matter is...."

to which the opposition merely questioned
"that degree from rice, does that cover you both?"



jeffe

JudgeSharpe,

What commercial filler do you use?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Terry,
tell me how in the heck you got that convex diamond, with a drift on it, to inlet properly? I took one look at Mike D's and nearly cried at the effort to get that ONE piece in place.


jeffe

Hey Jeffe, I wish I could say "I did it" but I just refinished the stock. Some fine European craftsman did it about 40 to 50 years ago.

By the way Flaco, My dad use to design bombs back during the Vietnam war. I bet he could have built one hell of a stock.

Terry