quote:

Originally posted by ggruber:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by ggruber:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Whoa!!! There are easier ways to fix this issue; first, what caliber is it and how did you check the headspace? Making ammo to fit the chamber is the easiest way to go.

That is dangerous and stupid.

Goober,
How long have you been shooting and loading?

Shooting for over 50 years, reloading for around 20, building custom pistols and rifles for people commercially for about the same time.

Anyone (and this includes you because your reputation proceeds you across the internet) who suggests compensating for execessive headspace by adjusting the shoulder of the loaded round is giving moronic and dangerous advice that may get someone hurt.

and yes, I will say it to your face...if you are ever in southern CA let me know.

Ain't no use in discussing it with you. I've been doing it about the same amount of time also. I would say the same to you face to face!

I have a Son and family that lives in Lancaster that I visit every year or two.

And what did you learn on BR Central after telling them about the bad dangerous people on other forums?

Guys I have to tell you to join the 21st Century. There are half a dozen pre 64 Win 70 bolts on eBay at any given time. They aren't giving them away but put a price on need? Plus he will have one to sell to recoup the price.

Stripped bolts have been going for $149-$172 and lately most have been leaving the extractor collar on.

Complete bolts have been $350 on up. They ain't making them anymore; they are worth what you are willing to spend.

Gentlemen, I thank you for all your responses.
I didn't mention the bolt change because I didn't notice it until I got the nogo and field gauges. I tried them in some of my other 243 rifles, they did not go so I tried the bolts from the other rifles in the problem rifle and they corrected the head space problem. I was not withholding information, I did not have the information.
I am lining up some other bolts to try in this rifle and I will let you know how it works out.


Thanks again.
Wayne

Metal, metal, but remember when you set a barrel back you just ruined the inletting of the stock, I suppose most would be satisfied to glass bed it, and I suppose that's an option..

I like the idea to fireform the cases to the chamber and that takes up the headspace and solves the problem of heasspace and stock fit..

A new bolt could be the answer for sure, but that depends on finding a correct bolt or building up the existing bolt. cost will become a factor on this perhaps as its touchy bisness I'm told.

quote:

I like the idea to fireform the cases to the chamber and that takes up the headspace and solves the problem of heasspace and stock fit..A new bolt could be the answer for sure, but that depends on finding a correct bolt or building up the existing bolt. cost will become a factor on this perhaps as its touchy bisness I'm told.

It is not necessary to fire form, a reloader should be able to form first then fire. Again, I have a M1917 with a long chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. It is .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized/factory case when measured from the shoulder of the case to the case head. A case that measures the same length as a field reject gage has .002" clearance. For me, not a problem I form 280 Remington cases to 30/06 with .014" in length added to the case between the shoulder to the case head. The 280 Remington case is longer than the 30/06 from the shoulder to the case head by .051", when off setting the length of the chamber with the case I can not miss.

Gages? If I need a gage and do not have one I make it. If I have a gage that is too long I do not need the shorter gages.

Then there is that problem with 'another bolt', I have at least 30 03A3 type bolts, I have no fewer than 25 Mauser 98 type bolts. I do not believe it is necessary to order a bucket of bolts for sorting through to find one that fits.

F. Guffey

Chuck Hawks list R-P cylinder brass (straight wall cases) with 35 Whelen head stamps, the cases are 2.650 long and are perfect for forming cases, too late for me I have all the cases I will ever need.

F. Guffey

Moronic and Dangerous? That is funny.
I suspect another case of someone having one year's experience 50 times rather than 50 years of experience.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Moronic and Dangerous? That is funny.
I suspect another case of someone having one year's experience 50 times rather than 50 years of experience.

I gotta bigger arm chair and putor screen than you do dpcd.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Metal, metal, but remember when you set a barrel back you just ruined the inletting of the stock

really? changing the barrel CHANGES in the inletting? Of course not, as you aren't, nor do you have to, change the stock

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

, I suppose most would be satisfied to glass bed it, and I suppose that's an option..

no reason to do so.. no reason to bed or do a thing.. fix the issue

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I like the idea to fireform the cases to the chamber and that takes up the headspace and solves the problem of heasspace and stock fit..

or just use longer brass and set the dies.. take 6rem or even 3006 and make brass to fit the chamber, ZERO sretch

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
A new bolt could be the answer for sure, but that depends on finding a correct bolt or building up the existing bolt.

so, not 'fur sur' .. in fact, a "new" bolt may or may not change a thing. the ONLY way to answer this, properly for a 243, is to do barrel work.. the ONLY way

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
cost will become a factor on this perhaps as its touchy bisness I'm told.

yes, it requires a decent eye for accuracy... no, its not touchy.. its either right, or its wrong, and it can be easily measured by anyone that knows what in the heck they are doing ... 3 pages of us giving that advice...

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Moronic and Dangerous? That is funny.
I suspect another case of someone having one year's experience 50 times rather than 50 years of experience.

truer words are seldom typed

Jeffe,

So you don't think moving a barrel back any amount has no effect on the fit of metal to wood?

I have to disagree with some of your answers to my post..

Yes

setting a barrel back does indeed change the relationship of the inletting to said barrel

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Yes

setting a barrel back does indeed change the relationship of the inletting to said barrel

yes, it changes the barrel, and appearance of the inletting. Setting back the barrel, of course, does not, in itself, change the actual inletting. Which is, of course, my point.

the headspace is bad, fix it or adapt to it. don't sell it as proper, whatever you do.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Yes

setting a barrel back does indeed change the relationship of the inletting to said barrel

And if this was a custom rifle with a closely inletted stock, it might be a big deal. Given typical Winchester inletting on their featherweights, a sixteenth inch ahead of the little shoulder isn't going to mean a lot. Ultimately, one has to decide which is more critical; a gap in the fit of the barrel to the stock or a gap between the head of the case and the boltface. I put more importance on the latter but that's just me. Regards, Bill.

If it was me it wouldn't be an issue

After the brass was fired I would collet size the kneck until the body required a partial size and a shoulder tweek

But I wouldn't loose a wink of sleep over it

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
If it was me it wouldn't be an issue

After the brass was fired I would collet size the kneck until the body required a partial size and a shoulder tweek

But I wouldn't loose a wink of sleep over it

I would just shoot it and throw away the brass. Or if I was so inclined to reload I would back the sizing die off the shell holder 1/2 a turn and then partial size it once every 6 firings as the brass got hard to chamber. But there's no point in making something simple when it's so easy to make it complicated.

https://books.google.com/books...lpg=PA232&dq=Hatcher's+notebook+headspace&source=bl&ots=ABzqUF0t6k&sig=QawyN1NFsIcDaDHpevMaZ_8Bky0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAGoVChMIuqDJvvaayAIVSlU-Ch0x5QXa#v=onepage&q=Hatcher's%20notebook%20headspace&f=false

Hopefully that link works. Hatchers Notebook is on line. Page 247 thru 249 covers this question. Short answer is that since that rife has a claw extractor the cartridge can not move foreword very far. It is almost like having a rimmed cartridge. The clearance at the shoulder is not dangerous under this situation.

If shoulder clearance were a safety problem then most British Enfield would be unsafe. They have huge shoulder clearance but the rim stops foreword movement. The fired cartridge case looks visibly longer, yet nothing bad happens. IT is when the firing pin drive the cartridge foreword, obturation makes it cling the chamber, then the high pressure causes the back half to break off. You then need a broken shell extractor. Yet nothing dangerous happens, the rifle is useless until the remaining half is removed, that is all.

Of course you are right; if one reads my posts about shooting 308s in 30-06s, and 7.65 Argentine, by the hundreds, without incident, they would see that the notion of "excessive headspace" has to be tempered with some knowledge of just what is occurring. Even without CRF, if it is too far forward to be a "headspace"problem, then the firing pin can't fire it anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:

if I was so inclined to reload I would back the sizing die off the shell holder 1/2 a turn and then partial size it once every 6 firings as the brass got hard to chamber.

How much 'feel' can you get away with in a Mauser action. If I neck size my once fired stretched 06 brass and then chamber with the bolt and no firing pin (so I can feel more accurately) I can feel some resistance to the bolt shutting - not much but some. I used to shoot like this but a smith recently warned me against it for fear of galling the lugs.

I suspect this is more to do with stainless actions and less relevant to chrome moly with greased lugs?I'd like to go back to it as I have 200 odd cases like this and find even setting the shoulder back a very small amount means I have to get the case trimmer out.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:

if I was so inclined to reload I would back the sizing die off the shell holder 1/2 a turn and then partial size it once every 6 firings as the brass got hard to chamber.

How much 'feel' can you get away with in a Mauser action. If I neck size my once fired stretched 06 brass and then chamber with the bolt and no firing pin (so I can feel more accurately) I can feel some resistance to the bolt shutting - not much but some. I used to shoot like this but a smith recently warned me against it for fear of galling the lugs.

I suspect this is more to do with stainless actions and less relevant to chrome moly with greased lugs?I'd like to go back to it as I have 200 odd cases like this and find even setting the shoulder back a very small amount means I have to get the case trimmer out.

How can bumping back the shoulder cause the case to lengthen? My BR receivers are Stainless and I size mine to have a slight feel when closing the bolt. I have many many thousands of rounds through them and no galling.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:

How much 'feel' can you get away with in a Mauser action. If I neck size my once fired stretched 06 brass and then chamber with the bolt and no firing pin (so I can feel more accurately) I can feel some resistance to the bolt shutting - not much but some. I used to shoot like this but a smith recently warned me against it for fear of galling the lugs.

I suspect this is more to do with stainless actions and less relevant to chrome moly with greased lugs?I'd like to go back to it as I have 200 odd cases like this and find even setting the shoulder back a very small amount means I have to get the case trimmer out.

Well, If you can close the bolt with just your thumb you aren't doing any damage. The brass case is compressing like a small spring, which is the resistance that you feel. I suppose in theory the pressure does create a little bit more wear on the lugs but the barrel would burn out long before the action set back enough to even effect headspace noticeably. I suppose all you would be doing would be wearing the lugs into perfect contact. I have never seen stainless actions behave any differently than chromoly in this instance. It's just not enough pressure to worry about.

Like Butch says, most bench rest shooters set their headspace so that the last 1/32nd or so of bolt closing loads up the action. The pressure helps seat everything in place and it also helps reload the top lug which always unloads when the sear engages. Most bench rest shooters are kinda nutz, but I have never seen one hold a séance, pray to god or arrange a bunch of voodoo dolls around their bags prior to touching off a few rounds. This fact leads me to believe that their ways are based on trial and error, simple science and are fairly safe and actually recommended if you want to shoot itty-bitty groups.

Galling the lugs? Nonsense. Don't trust the smith who said that.

The only time you will ever see lug galling is in some older rifles that have similar hardness materials in the bolt and receiver. I have seen a few Mausers that way over the years and more than a few of the older Sako and the Ceska Zbrojovka rifles. I can't recall ever seeing any stainless guns with the lugs galled and in all cases that I can think of the bolt heads are generally made of chromoly steel in stainless steel guns. For that matter, even the receiver bodies are generally made of hardened, martensitic stainless, which isn't as gummy as its austenitic cousins.

quote:

I used to shoot like this but a smith recently warned me against it for fear of galling the lugs.

I would consider a different smith

I hate to interfere with such a scholarly discussion, but I have sent Wayne74 two Model 70 bolts, both of which cured the excess headspace problem, and he is keeping the one with the hollow knob. I requested his old bolt in exchange, since any use I make of the bolts would be for a new build, where excess headspace would not be an issue.

Thanks to xausa's very generous offer the headspace problem has been solved.

I would like to thank everyone for their suggestions and especially xausa for solving the problem.

Wayne

medium grit emory cloth will take the etched numbers off and then hand polish wet a bit with 400 then 600 wet/dry black sand paper.

My greatest concern would be excessive cartridge case head protrusion.

The distance from base to shoulder is not as safety critical as the amount of case head protruding out of the chamber.

These pictures came from Chinn Vol IV The Machine Gun. Everybody ought to read the chapter on blowback actions before arguing over headspace and what is important in headspace. http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/MG/Reloaders Reloaders interpret headspace from the viewpoint of their reloading dies. Base to shoulder is not the most important measurement. The most safety critical chamber dimension that you don't measure with a headspace gage is cartridge case protrusion.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/MG/

quote:

My greatest concern would be excessive cartridge case head protrusion.

Case head protrusion is easy enough to measure. I have read claims on the Internet about how bad it can be and how common the problem is.

Then there is case head thickness. My favorite case head thickness is .260", most of my case heads for the 30/06 case has a case head thickness of .200". All of my Mauser type rifles have a case head protrusion of .110" plus .005" clearance. MY M1917s and Springfield type receivers have .090" case head protrusion from the bottom of the extractor cut to the case head. Same for the M1917 receivers. My 30/06 chambers have less case head protrusion than my Mausers.

Again,

Case head protrusion is easy enough to measure.

F. Guffey

Jeffe,
I have a hard time deciding if your just trying to pick a fight with your nitpicking or your just dumber than a box of hammers..Those last two post were so out of sight without any kind of substance its amazing, the first one was wrong and the second one was a weak try to dodge the first one..