Never owned a no go gauge.

Gentlemen.
I apologize for not responding in a timely fashion. We went camping for four days and had no phone or internet service.
The rifle in question is a 243 win. I don't have any head space gauges, When I fire a round in this rifle the shoulder is noticeably forward. I used a Sinclair bullet comparator, using the 30cal hole over the neck and measured the total length. When comparing this brass with brass fired from any of my other 243win rifles I think it is .025" longer. I have been shooting it and neck sizing only. This works perfectly but I am getting older and I want to sell off some of my Pre64 Winchester rifles. I don't want to sell this rifle in this condition nor do I want to ruin the appearance of this rifle.
I most certainly am not a professional Gunsmith But I am a welder and a machinist and I do tinker with my own guns.
This rifle is dismantled at this time, as time allows I will assemble it and get some head space gauges to properly measure the head space.
Thank you for all of your advice.

That is no indication of excessive headspace. Without a no go gauge you don't know where you are. Drive on.

dpcd
If this does not indicate excess head space, what does it indicate?
Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Scota4570:
I wrote "1917 Enfield, not Lee Enfield. 1917 Enfield, aka P-17 cams foreward, like the P-14, you mentioned. The cam on closing action can be misleading if you don't know what is going on. The rotation of the bolt has tremendous power and a person can close the bolt on gauges that are much longer than the true reading. Thus my recommendation to close carefully and watch for the feel.

The point is that some guys try to force the bolt closed on the gauge. Some think if it can be muscled closed then the gauge is too short. It is like tightening a micrometer with a pair of pliers before you take the reading.

Without more information I think there is a good chance his rifle is fine. The "long head space" might be because somebody did not know how to properly measure it.

I know you wrote 1917 Enfield, not Lee Enfield. I only mentioned the Lee Enfield as an example of a rifle in which you can close the bolt on a long gauge or a long cartridge because the action is stretchy. This is not the case with the 1917 or the P14. These front locking actions do not stretch and gauges do not readily compress. Regards, Bill

Wayne,
Looks like you have a problem. I can't think of any way to correct it without screwing up the appearance of the rifle. Yes, you can set the barrel back a thread and rechamber but that screws the wood to barrel fit and don't know if you have enough metal on the barrel to do that anyway. I think I might sell it like it is with a disclosure that states the headspace is incorrect.

Without using a proper gauge, you still know nothing about the condition of the chamber, etc. You say the cases are .025 longer at the shoulder, but are they the same shape as a factory 243? If not, then you might have a 243 Improved. Post a pic of the brass, and do a chamber cast.
I will do all this for you if you want; send me the rifle.
And yes, when you check headspace with the correct gauges, you do not horse the bolt handle closed; one pound pressure is enough. And even if you can close a bolt on a no go gauge, that does not make the rifle unsafe; that is what field gauges are for. And even then, if you make the brass fit the chamber, it doesn't matter.
Is the barrel original to the rifle, or has it been replaced at some point? It is rare for a 243 to develop problems here. Too much guessing going on and you will still be in the dark until you use a correct set of gauges, and if that shows issues, do a chamber cast.

I have ordered a NO GO gauge (Clymer) and will do some checking when it arrives.

The fired brass looks the same shape as factory brass except the shoulder is .025 forward and the neck is shorter. When I get the rifle back together I will post before and after pics of the brass.

Thank you.

A Field may have been a better choice. NoGo is for a "new" chamber. Field is for a used/worn barrel/rifle that has wear but is still safe. I think Field is typically .004 or .005" longer than NoGo.

airgun1
Thank you for the suggestion, I ordered a Field gauge also.

I know I handle far fewer rifles than most, but .025 longer. It would almost have to be chambered that way. I've never seen one stretch or wear that much, but if you properly fireform and properly size the brass, you're good to go. If you are selling it, several solutions, but none really easy or cheap.

Sometimes, I almost have to laugh at all the implied hand wringing which goes on whenever headspace, gauges, and corrective measures are discussed on an internet forum. The truth is, if a rifle has .025 head clearance, you can damn near measure it with a ruler!
If the poster is a machinist with basic skills, he can easily make a gauge which will enable him to accurately measure headspace. He can also make a gauge which will alow him to accurately measure headspace on a fired cartridge.
The old technique of piling layers of Scotch tape up on an unfired piece of brass, while not precise, can certainly tell you if head clearance is overly generous. Trust me, if can close the bolt on a piece of brass plus .025" of tape, you have a rifle with a problem.
Tell you what, if I owned that rifle, I would have already set it back by now. Given the precision (or not)of Winchester's inletting on most pre-64 Feather weights, another sixteenth inch won't cause too much anguish. I would rather have 1/16 gap than .025 head clearance; especially on a Model 70 which is specially designed to direct escaping gas into your right eye.
As far as the cause is concerned, Winchester screwed up. It happens. Regards, Bill

I received my NoGo and Field gauges today and the bolt closes with no pressure. By adding tape to the rear of the gauges the nogo appears to have .014 clearance and the field has.010.

I have three other Pre64 Featherweight rifles, with the bolt from all the other rifles in this rifle it will not close on the nogo gauge.

I think the bolt has been replaced on this rifle because the serial number on the bolt appears to have been done with a scribe. All my other model 70s appear to have been done with a vibratory marking tool.

Would it be possible to weld up the rear surface on the locking lugs and machine them to obtain the proper head space?

Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Wayne74:
I received my NoGo and Field gauges today and the bolt closes with no pressure. By adding tape to the rear of the gauges the nogo appears to have .014 clearance and the field has.010.

I have three other Pre64 Featherweight rifles, with the bolt from all the other rifles in this rifle it will not close on the nogo gauge.

I think the bolt has been replaced on this rifle because the serial number on the bolt appears to have been done with a scribe. All my other model 70s appear to have been done with a vibratory marking tool.

Would it be possible to weld up the rear surface on the locking lugs and machine them to obtain the proper head space?

Thank you.

No!

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:


No!

What Butch said but with more of them " ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! " thingys !

It sounds like someone bought a pre-64 Model 70 with no bolt for cheap and then just dropped a bolt in it and sold it for "fun-and-profit".

He made the profit and now you're having the fun !

Just sell it and tell the new owner what you found, and that he will have to fit the brass to the chamber. It is not as if it is unsafe, and with one time factory loads, won't be noticed. You will lose money either way, if you fix it, or sell it with the caveat.
I have heard of plating the bolt lugs but don't know anything about doing it.
And .014 is a long way from .025.

That's .014 over a nogo gauge so I believe that would be about .020 over a go gauge. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Let's look at the SAAMI specs; a 243 maximum chamber is allowed to be 1.640 long. A minimum cartridge is allowed to be 1.634-.007 (1.627). So the SAAMI allowable difference is ,013.
Few chambers are exactly the Go gauge length. they are somewhere in between. (Just got done with a 260 Rem 5 minutes ago)
So, again, will your rifle kill you? No. Does it need fixing? Only if the user can't fit brass. What should you do with it? Either fix it, or sell it as is and tell the buyer about it. Either way, it will cost you.

If you paid good money for it, you obviously bought it with the intent of using it. If that's the case, fire form some cases or just shoot some factory loads and back your sizer die off so that a dime will fit between your shell holder and die bottom when the ram is completely at the top. In this manor the die will just neck size. Size all your cases this way, pour them full of dragons dung and crunch a bullet on top and go hunting. It's just a slightly improved cartridge. Some knuckleheads pay big money to do the same thing and make Ackleys and other improved cases. As long as you just neck size your cases will last just as long as any other you load for. Won't cost you a cent.

Is it possible to "bush" the boltface to correct the headspace issue? This is often done to eliminate pitting, so why not do it to correct a headspace issue?

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Is it possible to "bush" the boltface to correct the headspace issue? This is often done to eliminate pitting, so why not do it to correct a headspace issue?

It can. Done properly a couple hundred bucks. But its still a buckshee repair and would probably be spotted so It would hurt the collectability which would leave it just a shooter with an incorrect bolt which has been bastardized. It's perfectly shootable the way it is for free.

Wayne,
Look on eBay and buy a stripped bolt with a bolt face that looks like your other 70's and then sell your bolt. This is a common problem with M70 put togethers. You have the gauges. You will know when you have a winner.

I am assuming the bolt has a recessed face and you need a flush face bolt. Look at your bolts and buy the one you need from eBay.

Speer is right, as usual.
OP has a pre 64 bolt; not easy to find or cheap.

What about rechambering to .244 Ackley Improved? The headspace issue would be solved and you could feed it .244 Remington factory ammunition. Then, if you want to reload, you can shoot it as .244 AI.

I have seen bolt faces filled with weld and re-machined to fix issues of set back lugs, why wouldn't this work in this case?
I realise it is not a cheap avenue to have done, but if it were me, I would look at all possibilities, with setting the barrel back being the easiest option.

Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
What about rechambering to .244 Ackley Improved? The headspace issue would be solved and you could feed it .244 Remington factory ammunition. Then, if you want to reload, you can shoot it as .244 AI.

If memory serves you have to set the barrel back about 2 turns to clean up the shoulder when going from 243 to 6mm. I don't think it could be done in a pre-64 couture barrel. You would lose the shoulder ring. Welding a bolt face is even more expensive than sleeving it and I wont weld them for heat treatment reasons. Some guys do, but I'm a chicken shit. Bolts for the pre 64 are almost non existent these days. Even if you found one it would probably end up being short anyway.

There is no cheap fix for this. The last guy came up with the only cheap fix when he dumped in a short bolt to replace the lost one. Neck size the cases and shoot it. It's just an improved case that's running a bit low on the "improved" part.

Wayne, you have a PM.

243 Ack Imp will work, as it is a blown out case and the shoulder will clean up a 243. You are thinking of a standard 6mm Rem, which won't. So no barrel set back needed for the IMP round.
But why not just make some slightly improved brass for this one and stop this drama.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
243 Ack Imp will work, as it is a blown out case and the shoulder will clean up a 243. You are thinking of a standard 6mm Rem, which won't. So no barrel set back needed for the IMP round.
But why not just make some slightly improved brass for this one and stop this drama.

Send it to dpcd with $300 and have him punch it out to 243 PMM.

Yep, we can certainly do that.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Yep, we can certainly do that.

If you're in Canada I'll punch it out for $300. But I would shoot it the way it is.

Me too but we been over that ground; no one else likes that course of action.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Me too but we been over that ground; no one else likes that course of action.

Too many people of Germanic decent dpcd.

Vy make something zimple Otto. Ven it is zo easy to make it comblikated !

myself, i'd do it 6mm imp ..

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Whoa!!! There are easier ways to fix this issue; first, what caliber is it and how did you check the headspace? Making ammo to fit the chamber is the easiest way to go.

That is dangerous and stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by ggruber:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Whoa!!! There are easier ways to fix this issue; first, what caliber is it and how did you check the headspace? Making ammo to fit the chamber is the easiest way to go.

That is dangerous and stupid.

I dare you to walk up to anyone shooting an Ackley improved, or any other wildcat cartridge for that matter and look him right in the eye and say that. No, I double-dog-ass-dare yah !

quote:

Originally posted by ggruber:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Whoa!!! There are easier ways to fix this issue; first, what caliber is it and how did you check the headspace? Making ammo to fit the chamber is the easiest way to go.

That is dangerous and stupid.

Goober,
How long have you been shooting and loading?

That is dangerous and stupid.


Goober,
How long have you been shooting and loading?



Now see what you up-and-done ggruber ! You woke up an old wildcatter. They're out there. Hiding and lurking in the shadows.

One last post on this situation. First, the bolt replacement could have been mentioned at the outset. However, there is not usually enough difference in bolt dimensions to cause this much headspace problem unless the bolt itself was messed with.
Finally, if you want the 243, set the damn barrel back! It's not a big deal. Value is already degraded by the (suspected) bolt replacement, Winchester's inletting and attention to detail in that era will swallow up a 1/16" gap with no problem and the rifle will still look (mostly) original. If you are not that insistent on the the 243, re-barrel it. One thing you should not do is sell it the way it is.
Like I said, I would have set it back, sighted it in, and taken it hunting within a couple of days of the start of this thread. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by ggruber:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Whoa!!! There are easier ways to fix this issue; first, what caliber is it and how did you check the headspace? Making ammo to fit the chamber is the easiest way to go.

That is dangerous and stupid.

Goober,
How long have you been shooting and loading?

Shooting for over 50 years, reloading for around 20, building custom pistols and rifles for people commercially for about the same time.

Anyone (and this includes you because your reputation proceeds you across the internet) who suggests compensating for execessive headspace by adjusting the shoulder of the loaded round is giving moronic and dangerous advice that may get someone hurt.

and yes, I will say it to your face...if you are ever in southern CA let me know.