Tomorrow "Sight-In Days" begins at our range...We open our private club range to the public 4 days per week for 6 weeks. It is amazing that some of the folks we see live through each hunting season, but we do our best to get them sighted in with their own rifles, and maybe teach them a bit of gun safety at the same time.

I can tell this year is going to be a doozy...

Monday we had a fellow at the range with a brand new Remington M700 in some version of a 7mm-08. (He actually had two of them with him, one in standard 7-08, and the other in 7-08 AI. I am not yet certain which he was firing when this incident occured. Is still under investigation.)

Anyway, first shot, there is a tremendous thump heard by one and all.

Investigation reveals that all of one bolt lug, and 3/4 of the other, and all of the lip around the countersunk bolt face, have DISAPPEARED from his now unusable (obviously) rifle!!

We were unable to find any signs of any of the missing metal afterward. For all I know, some of it may be hammer-welded to the inside of his bolt-lug recesses, but we had no handy way to check that at the range. (We had a range full of other shooters to "shepherd" in the meantime.) Perhaps after the barrel comes off, we will know.

It was a removable magazine ("clip"-fed) version of Remington's Model 700, which likely saved him a lot of grief...the released gas apparently pretty much all went down through where the magazine USED to be. He, and those around him, were totally unscathed physically. I suspect he will have a singularly severe flinch for a while, though.

So far we know he was using reloads. Though we have no idea what "load" he employed, we do know that he at least "thought" he was using Varget as a powder, though he was not positive. He had torn down some loads with the "wrong" bullet in them, dumped the powder back in "the" powder can (though we don't know for sure if it was the correct can), and then loaded his ammo some day(s) later.

On talking with him about his loading technique, we also found he was not really aware of how to correctly "tare" his electronic scale, so the powder charge could have been darned near anything.

What really concerns me is that among those from whom he was taking loading advice was one guy who claims "You cannot overload a 7-08 when using Varget". Another of his "loading gurus" had assured him that "Everyone knows the loading books are all 4 or 5 grains conservative with their maximum loads".

We will probably never know what was actually in there, but if I can find out more, I will report it here. Doubt if I can get any pictures, but will see what can be done about that, too.

Yep, looks as if it will be another "interesting" season of "Sight-in Days"...

The ignorant being lead by the idiotic. Where's Darwin when you really need him?

Reason 1,001 why I don’t reload...and why I don’t use reloaded ammunition.

No doubt that this will go down as another example of Remington’s poor quality and unsafe rifles.

But I’ve gotta ask...did the bolt handle fall off?

It is an interesting phenomenon that when the lugs come off a Remington bolt, the bolt handle usually stays put. Go figure. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Reason 1001 why I don't reload...

What are the other 1000?

Why would someone elses series of mistakes have anything to do with you not handloading. Thats like saying because some JA crashes his car every other day....."thats one of the reasons I don't drive"

and then "He, and those around him, were totally unscathed physically." Pretty much says it all about Remington rifles.

Most of my reloading was born of necessity. I tend to have a few cartridges that were until recently essentially handload only propositions or the events that I shoot in require the exclusive use of lead.

I tend to like to use cartridges these days that I can buy factory ammo in so I can spend more of the precious little time I have shooting and not reloading. But, I still reload where needed.

I honestly can't immagine a better time to NOT be a reloader in. There are so many good factory choices out there now.

I suspect that those poor fools at the range are the same type that clean the garage floor with gasoline and probably drink & drive. I've been reloading now for better than 20 years and have never had a problem. In that same time I've had two factory loads that had issues. A good track record in both cases.

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Originally posted by craigster:

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Reason 1001 why I don't reload...

What are the other 1000?

For starters...I see no practical reason to do so for my shooting purposes. And for another, I have never known anyone who reloads that also has access to the testing equipment to assure that their loads are safe and within the prescribed safe pressure limits.

Reloaders always remind me of the old Robin Williams joke about the guy with the penis vacuum pump that thought he could get just a bit more length... and he kept on pumping till his dick blew up.

If gun manufacturers would start making their product a "little less safe" we could strengthen the gene pool and the shooting community would be better for it.

quote:

Reloaders always remind me of the old Robin Williams joke about the guy with the penis vacuum pump that thought he could get just a bit more length... and he kept on pumping till his dick blew up.

Rick 0311

Mighty wide brush you're tarring with.

Rick, I'd venture a guess more guns are blown up every year by inserting the wrong ammo than reloads.

I think if you understood the practice a little better, you wouldn't be as shy about it. It's a very safe hobby as long as you follow the rules. Of coarse there are alway's those who will try to make a "magnum" out of everything, but most sane people never have any trouble with it.

Terry

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Reason 1,001 why I don’t reload...and why I don’t use reloaded ammunition.

Funny stuff there pard. I've suffered more indignity with factory fodder than ever with my handloads. You are of course free to chart your own path.

Isn't that the reason they have reloading manuals. I have to reload cause I have 9 yes 9 wildcats. Besides I enjoy it and and the prices of factory ammo is horrible.

Rick - You're right (and so is Bill Leeper) the bolt handle stayed on very securely. The bolt took a bit of "convincing" to get it to open, what with the brass melted and/or blown into every viewable front receiver ring cranny, but the bolt handle stayed on quite nicely.

I do guess someone will now likely suggest that another danged Remington extractor DID fail...as it is nowhere to be found <G>.

BTW, despite all the theories I've heard expressed about the value of that recessed Remington bolt face, it MAY have had some value in this instance. I don't know, but if it absorbed enough energy to make it fail (make "the ring of steel" disappear entirely, actually), then it may well have been one of the reasons no one was injured.

Of course, that's just speculation....

I know this younger shooter, and at least I think he's embarassed enough he won't dream up some story and try to sue Remington....

I've alway's heard a Remington 700 is one of the best at holding things together and inside when things go bad.

Damn shame he ruined the bolt. I'm sure the handle did take some abuse to get it opened.

Terry

If you bought 2 boxes of Remington Express in 270 it would cost 27.98 if you upgraded to the premier stuff it would be 36.98 for two boxes these are 130's.

Now if you bought 2 boxes of Remington 30-06 Express it would be 27.58 again upgrade to the premier stuff 37.98 and these are 150's.

After spending 30 or 40 bucks, you hope like hell they shoot. Unlike reloading you can load up 10 rds and head to the range and see how they shoot. Most people will buy two boxes of ammo. For 40 bucks you can buy a lb of powder and good box bullets.

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Damn shame he ruined the bolt. I'm sure the handle did take some abuse to get it opened.

Terry

Yes, Terry, it IS a shame. He's actually a fine lad, and a very good, hard-working, hunter. Whenever any of my acquaintances draws a once-in-a-lifetime Oregon tag such as for Big-Horned Sheep, he always puts in many days scouting for them, helps keep their camp up, and helps pack the game out, with no recompense except for the fun of the trip.

I don't know if it has been determined yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if the action body is also "toast". I'd think that applying enough force to sheer the bolt lugs would also likely have some detrimental effects on the bolt lug recesses in the front action ring.

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Originally posted by Rick 0311:
...I have never known anyone who reloads that also has access to the testing equipment to assure that their loads are safe and within the prescribed safe pressure limits....

You may not be aware of it, but a whole lot of us have that ability. The Methods to do it has been in use for well over 100 years.

But, there sure is some excellent Factory Ammo floating around now days. You picked about the best time ever "not" to Reload.

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Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
...no one was injured. I know this younger shooter, and at least I think he's embarassed enough he won't dream up some story and try to sue Remington....

Sue them? He ought to be singing their praises to anyone who will listen.

I was just getting ready to ask you and then spotted the key phrase, "no one was injured". Good for him and everyone nearby.

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Originally posted by TC1:
Rick, I'd venture a guess more guns are blown up every year by inserting the wrong ammo than reloads.

I think if you understood the practice a little better, you wouldn't be as shy about it. It's a very safe hobby as long as you follow the rules. Of coarse there are alway's those who will try to make a "magnum" out of everything, but most sane people never have any trouble with it.

Terry

I understand the process completely...just like I understand the process of heart surgery...and I don’t care to partake in that activity either!

Unfortunately, as allot of posts on this forum will prove out, there are an enormous amount of people reloading ammunition that could hardly be classified as “sane.â€

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Rick, I'd venture a guess more guns are blown up every year by inserting the wrong ammo than reloads.

I think if you understood the practice a little better, you wouldn't be as shy about it. It's a very safe hobby as long as you follow the rules. Of coarse there are alway's those who will try to make a "magnum" out of everything, but most sane people never have any trouble with it.

Terry

I understand the process completely...just like I understand the process of heart surgery...and I don’t care to partake in that activity either!

Unfortunately, as allot of posts on this forum will prove out, there are an enormous amount of people reloading ammunition that could hardly be classified as “sane.â€

HA!

Terry

To all the reloaders who have their panties in a bunch over my opinion on the practice, I would only offer that there seems to be an awful lot of posts on this forum about a problem (up to and including injuries and ruined rifles) that turns out to be directly related to the use of hot handloads...and someone made those loads up!

No doubt that handloading can be done safely...but there sure seems to be an awful lot of people out there doing it that aren’t taking advantage of those safe practices.

Read many of the posts concerning “working up loads†and the writer invariably is seeking to squeeze every last FPS that he can out of his loads as if the faster loads are always the most accurate ones, which they aren’t.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
To all the reloaders who have their panties in a bunch over my opinion on the practice, I would only offer that there seems to be an awful lot of posts on this forum about a problem (up to and including injuries and ruined rifles) that turns out to be directly related to the use of hot handloads...and someone made those loads up!

No doubt that handloading can be done safely...but there sure seems to be an awful lot of people out there doing it that aren’t taking advantage of those safe practices.

Read many of the posts concerning “working up loads†and the writer invariably is seeking to squeeze every last FPS that he can out of his loads as if the faster loads are always the most accurate ones, which they aren’t.

Yep, I can never understand why some people think that their way is the only way to do something.

I reload, but I'm one of those guys who doesn't load to maximum for anything. I find the most accurate load that fits my need. If I need more speed or more power it's a great excuse to buy a new rifle!

Heck, I live in Bakersfield and own a 375 H&H !

Guys-reloading doesn't scare me in the least. What scares the devil out of me is watching guys who try and shoot factory ammo at the range at 100 yards and then realize it is these exact people who will possibly be in the same woods as I am hunting. Now that is scary.
My apologies to the poor fellow who ruined his rifle---Let me put it a little nicer. You big dummy you should have known better.

I would like to buy the bolt just to see the condition and damage. I've removed 3 Remington barrels in order to get the bolt out after extreme overloads. All were from mistakes made by novice or inattentive reloaders.
Anybody that is wise enough to know their limitations and NOT reload ammo should be congradulated. I've sure seen a number of folks that reload that should NOT. But I also see folks do really dumb things with chainsaws, boats, air nailers, the list is endless.

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Originally posted by one-holer:
What scares the devil out of me is watching guys who try and shoot factory ammo at the range at 100 yards and then realize it is these exact people who will possibly be in the same woods as I am hunting.

I'm with you there...around here they usually pick up a "new" box of shells(based on the color of the box) at Wal-Mart the night before...and have never tried them before.

Whatcha all think about these 180 grainers? Uh-huh.

Alberta Canuck

I would venture to guess the gentleman chambered the 7-08 AI in the standard chamber 7-08...
By doing so potentially the neck of the case would be crimped against the bullet in the throat which might have created the excessive pressure condition to rupture the case.

The Remington 700 is probably still the strongest receiver design on the market today and this type of failure was calculated for and anticipated by the chief designer Mike Walker during the concept development back in the 40s, Weather human error in hand loading or barrel obstruction, Etc. Had this gentleman been employing one of the other commercially available receivers he and or other bystanders might not have fared so well!

The only other thing I might like to see on the M/700 design is the gas shielding capabilities of the bolt plug improved to assure molten brass from being forced back through and around the bolt tube and potentially into the shooter face during an event of this nature...

Was a bulge found on the barrel and if you might be able to see the weapon again maybe check on the brass flow around the bolt/reciever area for me, please?

Augustis ><>

Better yet "they had these 90gr 270 winchester's on sale 8.99 I thought I would give them a try" Seen that before. Or "these 22-250 55gr bullets aren't putting the deer down like I thought they would".

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Originally posted by Augustis:
Alberta Canuck

I would venture to guess the gentleman chambered the 7-08 AI in the standard chamber 7-08
Augustis ><>

It would be impossible to get Ackley Improved shoved into a std 7mm-08 chamber. But then again stranger things have happened!

The only problem I have ever had was with factory loads. I had picked up a brand new M70 featherweight and was sighting it in. Light bullets and wearing muffs, I was trying to get it on the paper at 100 yds (280 Win). The second load seemed pretty mild, and didn't seem to make as much noise, but I was using muffs and didn't think much about. The second shot didn't hit the paper either. The third shot really thumped and smoke came out around the action. I had to hammer the bolt open. The case was vaporized. After I got it cleaned out, everything worked fine. I realized that I had obviously encountered a squib load which left a bullet in the barrel. The next shot cleared both of them. The M70 is obviously strong. I killed a deer and three antelope with it the next week.

I've got to comment on the Remington "circle of steel" issue. That design has always made me nervous. There are other comments scattered around the internet concerning this. The fact is that these amount to "fences" since they are not solidly connected(there is always a gap at each metal junction). A lot of people, me included, consider this a weak design required by the extractor position. The same can be said of Sako and others. Remington designed their bolt to enter the rear of the barrel so that the web area of the case is shielded. However, it is not supported, only shielded. That is, the case is still ultimately the only thing which contains the pressure. If the barrel is poorly fitted, the thin potion in front of the case can be exposed. I have also seen this in Sakos which were rebarrled and the barrel shank faced off too short to make sure the ejector clears. If you look at the ejector position in relation to the case, the case is generally exposed to the top of the web in a normal chambering. Several gunsmiths have reported problems with belted magnums with excessive headspace which experience failures due to this. If the barrel work is not exact, it is possible to have a really thin section of unsupported case.

[QUOTE]Sue them? He ought to be singing their praises to anyone who will listen.

QUOTE]
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Well of course you and I agree on that. I was just trying to point out in a light-spirited way that he is a decent sort who got bad guidance. The "sue" comment was sarcasm and discomfort related to the modern way.

I am familiar with the details of one of the first suits Ruger settled out of court (much to the detriment of the industry and shooters in my opinion)...it involved two poachers in a vehicle in northern Alberta. One had a Ruger rifle in .22-250. He had the rifle pointed out the window about to shoot a "jack-lighted" animal (at night) when a car started to pull up behind them on that country lane with its bright lights on. Fearing it was a game warden or other LEO, the would-be shooter yanked the gun in the window and attempted to stuff it muzzle downward next to him in the front seat.

In the process, he shot himself in the ankle with it. Then he sued Ruger, claiming the safety was defective.

Of course, it was illegal (and still is) in Alberta to have a round n the chamber in a vehicle, let alone the question of what he was doing out there with it in the middle of the night/early morning. I mean, after all Jacklighting was/is illegal there. Anyway, Ruger settled rather than go to trial.

With the attitudes of some shooters I have met, it wouldn't surprise me if some of THEM sued if they blew their rifle(s) up with their own handloads. (Probably would claim that safe handloads should be listed in the paperwork that accompanies the gun, and that the maker should send a Reloading Assistant to their home to make sure everything was done correctly/safely during their assembly of their reloads, any and every time they felt like loading. Not much would greatly surprise me anymore.

Anyway, the lad who experienced this incident is not that sort.

quote:

Heck, I live in Bakersfield and own a 375 H&H !

And a damn fine looking one at that

-Spencer

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Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Unfortunately, as allot of posts on this forum will prove out, there are an enormous amount of people reloading ammunition that could hardly be classified as “sane.â€

Rick, did they unvalidate your E Pass at Magic Mt.? roger

I truly can say I was reloading at 10 years old (with the old man watching over my moves)

I just cant imagine shooting factory ammo
unless it was given as a gift. And the just plink with it and reload the brass.

I dont mean to knock anybody WHO DOES NOT RELOAD I just shoot too much not to, and I like to make my shots personal.

wreaks of a powder mistake to me. If it was varget, truly varget, it would take one hell of a load worth. I would wonder about the shearing of 1+ lugs also,..doesn't it require a super high pressure or a running start to shear the lugs? Either way,..I am betting close to or better than 100,000PSI

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Reason 1,001 why I don’t reload...and why I don’t use reloaded ammunition.

You know who loads factory ammo? Goobers just like the guy whose gun blew up at the range. I reload because I insiste on higher quality and more reliability than I can get from factory ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Reason 1,001 why I don’t reload...and why I don’t use reloaded ammunition.

You know who loads factory ammo? Goobers just like the guy whose gun blew up at the range. I reload because I insiste on higher quality and more reliability than I can get from factory ammo.

I guess you’ve never shot any Black Hills ammunition then???

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Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Unfortunately, as allot of posts on this forum will prove out, there are an enormous amount of people reloading ammunition that could hardly be classified as “sane.â€

Rick, did they unvalidate your E Pass at Magic Mt.? roger

Roger,

If I knew what that meant perhaps I would share the laugh with you.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Reason 1,001 why I don’t reload...and why I don’t use reloaded ammunition.

You know who loads factory ammo? Goobers just like the guy whose gun blew up at the range. I reload because I insiste on higher quality and more reliability than I can get from factory ammo.

I guess you’ve never shot any Black Hills ammunition then???

Did you ever meet the guys who work there?

Anyway, I get better accuracy from my reloads than Black Hills ammo, whether match ammo or otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Reason 1,001 why I don’t reload...and why I don’t use reloaded ammunition.

You know who loads factory ammo? Goobers just like the guy whose gun blew up at the range. I reload because I insiste on higher quality and more reliability than I can get from factory ammo.

I guess you’ve never shot any Black Hills ammunition then???

That stuff is to expensive for my blood. I can buy a couple of boxes of my favorite bullets with the money spent on there ammo. Don't get me wrong there are some people out there that shouldn't be reloading! Like this fellow who blew up his gun, one of my rifle if I load it anywhere near max it shoots shotgun groups but load it down usually 3 grs under max it shoots great..

quote:

I reload because I insiste on higher quality and more reliability than I can get from factory ammo.

This has been the case for me. I learned reloading from someone who's pretty good at it and, while paying rapt attention to safety, have failed to have a bad experience with any of my handloads. Plus, like Z, I own several obscure or expense to purchase loaded calibers. Do you own a 7.62x54r or .303 British? The former caliber is hard to find in any decent offerings locally and the later costs too damned much to purchase for a box of 20 locally. Every try to buy Black Hills ammo for them? Does Blackhills even offer it? With reloads, I can custom tailor my loads for each rifle and acheive great accuracy and be able afford to load up a lot of ammo for a full day at the range. I also enjoy the time I spend at the reloading bench and I further enjoy trying different loads to find the one that works best.

Further, I'll submit that my dad's Rem 700 likes the Blackhills he's tried in it. But it shoots better with his Varget reloads. Fancy that?

There's nothing wrong with reloading, but the world is full of dumbasses. If someone is smarter than the ballisticians who wrote the reloading manuals and wants to load things too hot, I wish them luck. Reloading is really not that hard to do properly and safetly. I don't have my shorts in a wad and ain't going to get them in a wad over anything, but to make reloading sound like a complete and utter waste of time is almost a fallacious argument. I enjoy it - and that's enough for me.

And I shall say no more...

Tex