quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:

quote:

I see no practical reason to do so for my shooting purposes. And for another, I have never known anyone who reloads that also has access to the testing equipment to assure that their loads are safe and within the prescribed safe pressure limits.

The Only Blown Primers, Split cases, and dud rounds I've ever seen were Factory Loads. Sorry, I have much, much, much more confidence w/ my hand loads.

People who don't trust reloads don't have the adequate knowledge of the proper Hand loading process. If they watched the Factory load ammo and then watched a very experienced hand loader load They'd probably never burn another Factory round .

On another note, I load for a friends 270 Weatherby for $12 a box. He was paying over 40. He says the loads I load for him shoot better and don't show the pressure signs as the factory stuff. I can produce far more accurate loads than factory loads at 1/3 of the cost. If you ever get a chance to disassemble the Factory stuff, you'll see why I don't use it any more, even the premium lines.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Reloader,

I’m happy, that your happy!

Do you assume that because I do not care to reload ammunition that this automatically means that I do not understand the process, or that I have never done so in the past?

This is why I love this forum...I’ve learned so many useful things on here, like:

1. In order to be considered a good/safe shooter/hunter you have to reload your own ammunition.

2. In order to have bragging rights about your driving skills you also have to be a reloader.

3. If one choose‘s not to participate in an activity it means he doesn’t understand it.

Damn...I never knew those things until you kind gentleman were so gracious as to inform me!

AC,

I'd love to see those photos if you can get and post them.

I mean no disrespect to Reloader. I think I understand where he's coming from. It requires that I impart a great deal of trust in the knowledge of "everyman" without knowing his depth of understanding of the subject.

I'm also inclined to agree with Rick0311 regarding the narrowness of focus regarding some of the posts that I read here.

However in the context of observing the actions of others trying to grok their level of understanding about the sport they're attempting to engage in at the local range...

I trust MY reloads.
I have learned that it's simply safer not to trust the reloads of others.

I've also learned that it's best to speak in terms of my own experience. Your results may vary.

I have also come to beleive that unless the person from whom I aquire any reloads is one of the circle of guys I know share my respect for the issue,..I should pull down any and all reloads from other sources and toss the powder on the lawn. I can safely recycle cases and bullets and primers,..but I am not in the practice of trusting anyone elses handloads as far as powder is concerned.

Come on, fess up. You guys are getting help from someone to come up with all these profound and witty posts, right?

Hot Core

"No doubt that excellent Remington design saved that young fellows extrimities as well as his sight. But it does go to show that even the very best designed rifles can come apart when the Pressure gets high enough."

For once in our lives we finally agree on something as a matter of fact!

Regards, Augustis ><>

Rick:
Didn't you know--You can't take pot shots at reloaders,premium bullets,Rugers, or elk hunters. These topics stir the masses.

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
Rick:
Didn't you know--You can't take pot shots at reloaders,premium bullets,Rugers, or elk hunters. These topics stir the masses.

One-holer,

That’s pretty much the idea! Someone on here had the bi-line of: “The tastiest burgers are made from sacred cows.†That sort of sums up my philosophy in life.

quote:

Originally posted by Augustis:
...For once in our lives we finally agree on something as a matter of fact!...

It is nice to be able to agree with you. Perhaps we can even "disagree" in the future and remain civil. Sounds like a worthy opportunity to me.

Rick, I have been reloading for 30 plus years, different from some, I HAVE SCREWED UP but am lucking enough to still be here. Course I have managed to come too close in a couple of other areas but could only say OH S_ _ _. If someone gets their panties in a wad....tough.... I work in the safety field and I hear way to many people say "It don't need a guard, just tell the idiot to keep his hands out of it". Same guy who dropped a butcher knife at home, grabbed for it and got cut...he still don't get it. Personally think that if you do not like to reload, thats great, course I have always been a little off kilter, so I do....
like the wise man said.....
S O O O O many cats

S O O O few recipes.

quote:

Originally posted by Lost Oki:
Rick, I have been reloading for 30 plus years, different from some, I HAVE SCREWED UP but am lucking enough to still be here. Course I have managed to come too close in a couple of other areas but could only say OH S_ _ _. If someone gets their panties in a wad....tough.... I work in the safety field and I hear way to many people say "It don't need a guard, just tell the idiot to keep his hands out of it". Same guy who dropped a butcher knife at home, grabbed for it and got cut...he still don't get it. Personally think that if you do not like to reload, thats great, course I have always been a little off kilter, so I do....
like the wise man said.....
S O O O O many cats

S O O O few recipes.

I’ve never been accused on being “on kilter†myself...so we have something in common.

This topic has gotten blown way out of proportion...as they always seem to do...because I do not consider all people who reload to be dangerous, crazy, or a menace to anything at all.

The ones that I find amusing (in addition to all of the above) are the ones that blown themselves and/or their rifles up while trying to squeeze every last foot per second out of a round, for God only knows what reason.

People reload for different reasons...some for economics, some because their chosen round is not commercially available, and some (who hopefully know what the Hell they are doing) to improve the ballistics/accuracy over factory ammo.

Then there are those “others†who are far more prevalent than many would like you to believe.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:

quote:

I see no practical reason to do so for my shooting purposes. And for another, I have never known anyone who reloads that also has access to the testing equipment to assure that their loads are safe and within the prescribed safe pressure limits.

The Only Blown Primers, Split cases, and dud rounds I've ever seen were Factory Loads. Sorry, I have much, much, much more confidence w/ my hand loads.

People who don't trust reloads don't have the adequate knowledge of the proper Hand loading process. If they watched the Factory load ammo and then watched a very experienced hand loader load They'd probably never burn another Factory round .

On another note, I load for a friends 270 Weatherby for $12 a box. He was paying over 40. He says the loads I load for him shoot better and don't show the pressure signs as the factory stuff. I can produce far more accurate loads than factory loads at 1/3 of the cost. If you ever get a chance to disassemble the Factory stuff, you'll see why I don't use it any more, even the premium lines.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Reloader,

I’m happy, that your happy!

Do you assume that because I do not care to reload ammunition that this automatically means that I do not understand the process, or that I have never done so in the past?

This is why I love this forum...I’ve learned so many useful things on here, like:

1. In order to be considered a good/safe shooter/hunter you have to reload your own ammunition.

2. In order to have bragging rights about your driving skills you also have to be a reloader.

3. If one choose‘s not to participate in an activity it means he doesn’t understand it.

Damn...I never knew those things until you kind gentleman were so gracious as to inform me!

rick

and the answer is..........d, all of the above.

Hot Core

"It is nice to be able to agree with you. Perhaps we can even "disagree" in the future and remain civil. Sounds like a worthy opportunity to me."


And at this time I think I will sit back and savor this moment in silent reflection of our past conflicts of heated debate, where it seemed at times no one else existed on the thread because we were too fixated on locking horns with one another.

Maybe someday we can take it off of the boards and discuss our difference of opinions on the other matter privately, and put the BS a side like the professionals we are or should always aspire to be...?

Yes indeed, it possibly looks like a worthy opportunity!

Sincerely, Augustis ><>

Have now had the opportunity to do some personal investigation of this rifle blow-up. All is not as originally reported to me by some of the range staff, and hence by me to you.

First off...the rifle was not new. It was new to that owner, but was not a new rifle. It had been the property originally of a local "gunsmith" who is notoriously incautious about hs load levels.

Second. It WAS the 7-08, not the 7-08 AI, that failed.

Third, the cartridge failure did NOT blow off one locking lug and most of another. One lug was in fact intact, while about 1/4 of the FRONT of the other lug is missing. So, that second lug did not fail where it joined the bolt body, but at the end of the lug next to the failed cartridge case.

All of the 3rd ring of steel encircling the cartridge head IS missing.

The extractor WAS found...still in place on the head of the cartridge (or what remains of that cartridge head).

The cartridge case was removed from the barrel after the barrel was removed from the action. No part of the cartridge case, other than the primer pocket and part of the web, had failed.

The primer _pocket_ is now about .35 caliber, and the portion of the web where the flash hole had been is gone.

The load was reported yesterday to me by the loader/gun owner to have been 46.0 grs. of Varget under a 140 gr. Barnes Triple-Shock bullet. To put that in perspective, the AR data on this site lists 44.0 grs. of Varget for a 120 gr. Nosler.

Viewing of the bolt head and the grain structure of the steel at the point(s) of failure leads one to believe that perhaps a classic "fatigue" failure occured. History of the rifle tends to support that view. The rifle had been fired many (possibly hundreds) of times by the original "gunsmith" owner with a load of 47 grains of Varget and various 140 gr. bullets, not including the Barnes Triple-X. That's roughly equivalent to shooting many, possibly very many, factory "proof" or "blue pill" loads.

The new owner, when he decided to try the Barnes homgeneous Triple-shock bullets, had dropped the load by one grain of powder. The load of 47. grs. of Varget had been recommended to him by the gunsmith, but he felt that was too hot...because absolute MAX in his 7-08 AI (made by the same "gunsmith") was already known to him to be 47.5 grs. Varget. So, anyway, he went down to 46 grs for his standard 7-08.

The owner has learned several lessons from this.

1. He has dumped that entire can of Varget.

2. He has thrown away all the brass which came with the rifle and had been fired unknown times with the 47 grain load.

3. The barreled action (and bolt) are currently enroute back to Remington for replacement of the bolt and checking of the action...which appears by superficial viewing to be unharmed.

If and when the rifle is returned, he will begin loading with all new components at the very MINIMUM listed book load and will work his way up in 1/2 gr. increments 'til he sees ANY signs of primer flattening, or "untoward" chronograph readings. On seeing any such signs he will then lower his load 1 grain and use that as a maximum working load.

In the meantime, I will convince him to lower the load level of his 7-08 AI. They are chronoing slightly over 3,250 fps with the 140gr. bullets, which I believe strongly suggests too high pressures when coming from any version of 7-08. (My Nosler manual, for instance shows 3,250 fps as an unattainable [safely] velocity from a 7mm Remington Mag when firng 140 gr. bullets!!)

Anyway, my inclination at this point is to simply say...repeated firings with a load as hot as 47 grs. of Varget & a 140 gr. bullet may, in my opinion, eventually result in enough flexing and stretching of the bolt counterbored surface to cause fatigue failure...even if no visible harm does occur within say 20, or 40, or even 100 rounds.

Will let y'all know when I find out what Remington says to the owner.



I am also reminded why, when I used to be a LEO, I considered an eyewitness to be much less useful than physical evidence. Evidence doesn't eggagerate, misconstrue what occurred, or have any inbred biases which colour what it testifies to...it just is what it is. Eyewitnesses, to the contrary, often see what they think they should have seen.

Alberta Canuck,

It is a pretty well established fact that 1st reports are wrong, in varying degrees, 99.9% of the time. Ask the news media that is always so quick to get a story on the air!

I think the phrase “the straw that broke the camels back†appears to have some relevance in this case.

Luckily your young friend is still around so he can learn from his mistake.

I just pulled this classic comment from AC's post, "The extractor WAS found...still in place on the head of the cartridge (or what remains of that cartridge head)." And people think they aren't tough.

Anyone care to guess how a Rem Bolt modified to have the Sako Extractor put on it would have done?

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Have now had the opportunity to do some personal investigation of this rifle blow-up. All is not as originally reported to me by some of the range staff, and hence by me to you.

First off...the rifle was not new. ...The load was reported yesterday to me by the loader/gun owner to have been 46.0 grs. of Varget under a 140 gr. Barnes Triple-Shock bullet. To put that in perspective, the AR data on this site lists 44.0 grs. of Varget for a 120 gr. Nosler..... The rifle had been fired many (possibly hundreds) of times by the original "gunsmith" owner with a load of 47 grains of Varget and various 140 gr. bullets, not including the Barnes Triple-X. That's roughly equivalent to shooting many, possibly very many, factory "proof" or "blue pill" loads. ...

Awhile back I answered a post to a young fellow asking about whether he should buy a particular rifle which just happened to be "used". This was my response and it seems appropriate in light of AC's report.

Here are a few questions to ask before buying a “used†rifle:

1. Do you know the previous owner(s) and how he cared for the firearm? Not the obvious external rust and termites, but rather how is the Throat or Lead?
2. Speaking of rust and termites, have you looked for rust with the stock removed?
3. Have you had the Bolt apart to see what condition it is in?
4. Did a previous owner shoot it as fast as he could while the barrel was too hot to hold?
5. Did a previous owner “Lap the Bore†to remove/hide pits?
6. Was a previous owner a reloader that believed it was OK to use Over-Loads?
7. How is the Headspace?
8. Has the barrel been set-back a thread?
9a. Why?
9. Has it been re-blued?
10a. Why?
11. Has the termite food stock been re-finished?
11a. Why?
12. Is the Recoil Pad in complete alignment all the way around?
13. Does the Front Sling Swivel stud make contact with the Barrel?
14. Is the Rear Sling Swivel in proper alignment?
15. Is the barrel completely Free Floated?
15a. Did it come that way from the factory?
15b. If it is different from the way it was shipped, why?
16. Has the stock been Bedded differently than as it left the factory?
16a. Was it done to repair or hide a split in the termite food?
16b. Does the termite food Warp on this rifle?
17. Is the Trigger original?
17a. Any rust, built-up trash or residue within the Trigger recesses?
18. Does the Safety work properly?
And last but most certainly not least,
19. How much “Cumulative Metal Fatigue†does it have from all the previous years of use?

If you DO NOT HAVE good answers for those questions concerning the specific rifle, then they become reasons a person should not buy.

HotCore,

Sage advice!

At the risk of starting a completely different battle on here, I would say that this young man is extremely lucky that Remington bolt did not have a Sako type extractor on it. As fine as they may be on a bolt designed to use them, they can be disastrous on a bolt that was not...like the Remington.

Hi Alberta Canuck .... we probably know each other! And hi to Billy Leeper I'm glad to see you are still alive and turning screw drivers. I'm Rod Henrickson and I'm currently working for Karl Schmid at KS Arms in Edmonton, much less stressful than having my own shop, which I did for far to many years ) ! As far as I know I'm one of the last three remaining Canukians that were trained at the Remington plant for proof house work. I can't even begin to say why the gun came apart outside of the fact that we are dealing with a situation involving an excessive amount of pressure which I'm sure is an axiom to us all! What you might find interesting though is that while I was taking my physical, proving training at the plant in Ilion (working in the proving room with the plant employees) I candidly asked one smallish Mexican gentleman how much pressure the Remington action would take before it came apart? He had obviously been well groomed in political correctness as he grinned at me and said,"steel begins to move at 80,000 copper units of pressure and things tend to get very uncontrollable at 100,000 but we have measured much higher"! The way he said it and the way he turned back to work made it clear that it was the end of the discussion. If I may continue to babble? I have seen close to 12 popped Remington 700s in the last 24 years and in no instance has the bolt handle been blown off. The reason they do come off is rather simple. Bad furnace brazes which do happen from time to time. Or some hero gets an overload and instead of taking it to a gunsmith and having the barrel pulled they elect to take a plastic mallet to the handle. The 700 was never designed to be opened with a mallet!

Boy, speerchucker...you better watch out, Remington’s going to send a hit team to take you out for sharing proprietary secrets!

Great to actually hear from someone who has first hand experience in this area, and doesn’t have to resort to 3rd and 4th hand “stories“ told around a camp fire.

I’ve been shooting 700’s since the 1960’s and have never experienced any of the “problems†that others claim are so prevalent with these actions. Never had an extractor break or fail to extract...never had the rifle go off when I disengaged the safety...and never had a bolt handle come off either.

Of course, I can’t say that I have ever taken a hammer to the bolt, but I’m not sure why I would want to do that since my hand has always worked just fine for opening the bolt.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Boy, speerchucker...you better watch out, Remington’s going to send a hit team to take you out for sharing proprietary secrets!

Great to actually hear from someone who has first hand experience in this area, and doesn’t have to resort to 3rd and 4th hand “stories“ told around a camp fire.

I’ve been shooting 700’s since the 1960’s and have never experienced any of the “problems†that others claim are so prevalent with these actions. Never had an extractor break or fail to extract...never had the rifle go off when I disengaged the safety...and never had a bolt handle come off either.

Of course, I can’t say that I have ever taken a hammer to the bolt, but I’m not sure why I would want to do that since my hand has always worked just fine for opening the bolt.

I think the triggers are fine as long as they aren't adjusted by people that don't know what they're doing. Never had a bolt handle break, but I've seen enough pictures`posted on the net (not just stories) to know it happens more than it should. I've had an extractor let go so I know this isn't an urban legend.

As the story that started this indicates, It's a strong action.

Terry

TC1,

I know that certain parts on rifles break at times do to a variety of reasons, many of which no one really knows...but it would appear at times (if you believe what you hear and read) that this is close to an everyday experience with 700’s.

I personally know people who have broken extractors and ejectors on Mausers, Winchesters and Rugers. I also have seen a welded on replacement bolt handle come off a Mauser once.

I’m not sure what any of these instances prove, other than the undeniable fact that anything made by man can break on occasion.

I don’t know of any brand of rifle that is 100% immune from this.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
Remington plant for proof house work. QUOTE]

Didn't I read somewhere that when the brass fails first, the resultant gas excape tends to wreck the action ?
JL

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Awhile back I answered a post to a young fellow asking about whether he should buy a particular rifle which just happened to be "used".

Wow...I'm now a "young" fellow. I'm sure my wife will be glad to hear that.

In this case, I think it is kind of out of context based on my earlier questions of the collectability and/ or suitability of customization on a Winchester 54.

quote:

Originally posted by fireball168:
...Wow...I'm now a "young" fellow. I'm sure my wife will be glad to hear that.

Your welcome(?).

If it makes you feel better, I could have said someone who didn't know beans about rifles (like bradley or chuckey), but I didn't have that impression of your question.

quote:

In this case, I think it is kind of out of context based on my earlier questions of the collectability and/ or suitability of customization on a Winchester 54.

Which part is out-of-context? Always glad to change the above for something better. It is just my thoughts on buying any used firearm.