Hi all,

I quickly crunched some numbers to see what the true cost of purchasing a $9k rifle is compared to a $3.5K rifle if the difference was invested (I know, too rational isn't it ).

Taking a simple approach and assuming 7% compound interest (conservative), over a 30 year period (assuming we will live that much longer) the $5500 difference would have grown to about $40,000! Sure, $40,000 in the future will be worth less than $40,000 today, but accounting for inflation at an average of 3.5%, it would still be worth about $15,000. That would amount to one really great hunt!

In the final analysis, there are many other tangible and intangible variables that come into play that may increase or decrease the $15,000 loss considerably. For instance, if you can invest at an even higher rate of return (say 12%), the loss will be much larger. If you can't or would not have invested the money and you are able to make a few incredible shots on game that you would not have been able to make with a lesser quality rifle, and the rifle value keeps up or surpasses the rate of inflation and keeps you from buying even more cheaper quality rifles, then you just made the best investment of your life.

I just wanted to throw in opportunity cost and provide a different perspective than we normally use when making a firearm purchase.

What is your thinking on this?

CL,

Great theory...but how many people do you know that take the money saved on the purchase of a rifle (or anything else for that matter) and invest it in order to finance some trip they are going to take 30 years later????????

I’m 59 years old, and I’m not sure I’ll even be around 30 years from now!

The type of person that spends $9k on a rifle isn't worying about what that $5.5k will ammoritize to over 30 years. It simply doesn't come into the equation.

And why stop there You can get a $700 factory rifle, top it with a $300 scope, and then amoritize that $8k saved over 30 years.

I've seen people that make alot of decisions based on what they plan to do in 30 years when they retire, and then realize all the things they wished the'd done in those 30 years.

Money in a sense is just another tool, and is useless unless used to achieve something or other. It is both the most useful and most useless tool. Useful because of what it can be used for, useless if saved with no intention of using it.

I simply don't understand why so many people recently have felt the need to castigate those spending $9k on a rifle, it is there money, if that's what they want to spend it on, it is none of your damn business!!! As I've stated many times, it comes across at best as petty jelousy.

I don't have a $9k rifle, heck I doubt any would even fetch $900, and I don't see myself being able to afford such a gun anytime soon, if at all. That said, I fully understand and appreciate fine tools, and to those that can afford them and appreciate them, more power to them.

Finance is my business, and to be honest, hunting isn't a game for the guy who wants to split hairs over what his money would have grown to in a traditional investment. Even our do-it-yourself hunts right here at home take serious money, and by the time you factor-in the cost of a Ford F-350, a Snug-Top canopy, a 10K lb. Warne winch, tents, trailers, stoves, chainsaws, 4-wheelers, horse-tack, a Hi-Lift jack...... yada, yada, yada...... and you've suddenly got $50K or more tied up in an investment that you get to exercise the full value of maybe every-other year, the way the tag-drawing racket goes these days. Then try getting your moeny back out of all this assorted gear and see how well you do......

I also know this: The hospital bills -- or funeral bills -- that you or your heirs will have to pay as the result of getting pounded by a Cape buffalo due to a disfunctional rifle are a whole lot higher than spending $7-$10K for a top-notch rifle that can be used for a lot of years. Again, ask Keith Atcheson's wife if this is not true........

I also know of a guy who dropped his rifle on a sheep hunt in Alaska and broke the potmetal triggerguard on his factory-fresh Remington 700 that he bought on close-out, and this not only buggered his rifle enough so that it was unusable, but since his guide didn't carry a rifle, they had to hike-out, fly-out, get a loaner rifle, then fly-back, hike-back, and then try to salvage the expedition after losing three hunting days on a ten-day, $10,000 hunt. Sounds fun, huh?

Or how about the guy who drew a once-in-a-lifetime sheep tag in Colorado (this story was written up in "Safari" a few years ago), but when he finally got a shooting opportunity, he experienced misfires because one of the rolled pins that holds the bolt body together on his Browning A-Bolt invaded the firing pin raceway and hindered the movement of the firing pin. That A-Bolt sounds like it was money well-saved and invested into CDs (certificates of depreciation) rather than a better rifle, doesn't it?

AD

and then there is the opposite equation. "If I would have just bought that $9000 rifle instead of hanging out in that bar buying all those girls drinks At least I'd still have the gun"

It's just money.
Terry

Paul, I agree 110% with you and I do hope that you were not referring to me on this. I am in no way jealous. In fact, I tip my hat off to the success that many Echols Legend owners seem to have in their professional lives and wish them all the very best. I am also working hard and making smart choices to one day have more financial flexibility than I have right now.

I just wanted to do the pure math and throw it out there for a different perspective. It was not meant to stick it to anyone.

To be honest, I am sort of struggling with should I buy a high end rifle now (which one and how much) or in a few years. If I buy one now, what investment opportunity (for instance, deposit on a rental property) will I miss out on and what might that cost me in terms of future lifestyle. Looking at this, I am probably either not yet financially ready for a high-end rifle or am too focused on the future or other priorities and need to reevaluate my own lifestyle/financial goals.

The truth, as Allen and you have stated, is that this type of logic is not really applicable for the variety of reasons both of you mentioned but it does provide food for thought. As always, any of your comments are appreciated.

How about the guy like me who buys a dozen rifles and spends thirty years getting them right like Allen mentioned!

I just like doing it. Don't make me justify it money wise.

CL,

I cannot begin to tell you how many .99 cent tools I have bought, out of the sale bins in hardware stores, over the years...only to have them break or mess up a project I was working on. Now much older, and hopefully a wee-bit wiser, I buy the best tools I can afford.

Firearms, shooting and hunting are expensive pursuits even if done casually...and making a decision based solely on cost can bite you in the ass, many times, in the long run when that “cheaper†product ends up costing you far more than if you had just coughed up the money for the good stuff at the start.

As has been stated by many people on here already, you don’t necessarily have to buy a $10,000.00 rifle to have something that is reliable and accurate. I have numerous rifles that didn’t cost anywhere near that amount and have never experienced any problems with them. I don’t hunt anything that is going to run me over or eat me though, so I might have a different view if that were the case.

As the old saying goes: You get what you pay for...and you PAY for what you get!

What do you mean, 30 years. If you would have bought Baidu this morning at $66 you could have sold it this afternoon for $122.64, which is about a 100 % gain in one day.

And of course, you could die tommorow.

I think the bottom line over this whole Echol's Legend deal is that if a guy wants one bad enough he will find a way to get one if it means working another job or saving a buck here and there. And if he doesn't want one, then he won't get one. Its as simple as that!!!!!!

Mr Lefty, I think that a $15,000 hunt 30Yrs. from now wouldn't buy much. Butch

CL,

I wasn't directing the jelousy barb at you, rather an extension from the other thread.

Just a few thoughts on investing. I don't have alot in my 401k, but had I followed my instict about the .com's going down 5-6 years ago and re-invested my money in another spot, I would have enough today to pay for not one but two legends, and I'd hate to think what that lost money would be worth in 30 years. I don't sweat it, because it is what it is. You can't predict the future, so do the best you can figure for today.

Also, much more important than money is time, and hit has an immense value. You mentioned using the money as a down payment for a rental property. How much time will you wrap up in that that you would otherwise spend doing things you enjoy?

As far as should you pay for a top end rifle now, if that is what is most important to you, and you put all your spare money and time into hunting, then by all means go top notch and never look back. If however you have other interests and priorities, I don't see how that money would be best spent for a rifle.

One last thought on the legend, you could buy one now, hunt with it for a few years, and sell it for what you paid or the going rate of legends due to the supply not meeting demand, and there being a number of folks that want the best and not wanting to wait being more then willing to buy it right away. With the no name smith $2500 custom, you'd be lucky to get 50% of what you paid for it, and if you get some skookum wildcat chambering, you'll have a hard time moving it.

After being lucky enough to put in about 70 or so years on this planet, having lived in several countries, and having done many, many, things in shooting, business, travel, etc., I must admit my view always has been and still is Carpe Diem!!

Investments don't mean squat unless the world stays pretty much as it is now, both legally and social structure-wise. Ask those Jews who were well off until the 3rd Reich came to power (if you could). Ask the Kulaks, who did okay until Lenin/Stalin decided to implement their view of farm collectivization.

Through great good fortune I have always made really good money until I retired a few years ago. Luckily, I got out of the dot.coms in time, and re-invested in companies like Lockheed-Martin, Olin, Penny's, etc., that had always paid dividends. Their prices have now about doubled or better. So what? Next week I undergo really serious life threatening surgery. A nice fat IRA and FOUR pensions won't mean much if that goes badly.

What you want to do, do it now. You only get one "go-round" in this rodeo we call life. You want a custom rifle? Buy it when you can. (Don't forget, the same goes for telling someone special that you love them.)

Hey, Alberta!

Good luck on the surgery, brother...I’m sure I speak for just about everyone on here when I say my thoughts and prayers will be with you.

Lefty,
the trick to anuitities is assuming you will live. However, a 9k right should be perfect... a 3500 is, well, a good effort
jeffe

Nobody wants to spend more than he needs to spend to get what he needs. That's as true for rifles as it is for any other consumer item.

The figuring out of this calculus by one man as opposed to another is the essence of idiosyncrasy.

Thank God we all (at least in the free, first world) have ample opportunity to make that choice for ourselves.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Finance is my business, and to be honest, hunting isn't a game for the guy who wants to split hairs over what his money would have grown to in a traditional investment. Even our do-it-yourself hunts right here at home take serious money, and by the time you factor-in the cost of a Ford F-350, a Snug-Top canopy, a 10K lb. Warne winch, tents, trailers, stoves, chainsaws, 4-wheelers, horse-tack, a Hi-Lift jack...... yada, yada, yada...... and you've suddenly got $50K or more tied up in an investment that you get to exercise the full value of maybe every-other year, the way the tag-drawing racket goes these days. Then try getting your moeny back out of all this assorted gear and see how well you do......

I also know this: The hospital bills -- or funeral bills -- that you or your heirs will have to pay as the result of getting pounded by a Cape buffalo due to a disfunctional rifle are a whole lot higher than spending $7-$10K for a top-notch rifle that can be used for a lot of years. Again, ask Keith Atcheson's wife if this is not true........

I also know of a guy who dropped his rifle on a sheep hunt in Alaska and broke the potmetal triggerguard on his factory-fresh Remington 700 that he bought on close-out, and this not only buggered his rifle enough so that it was unusable, but since his guide didn't carry a rifle, they had to hike-out, fly-out, get a loaner rifle, then fly-back, hike-back, and then try to salvage the expedition after losing three hunting days on a ten-day, $10,000 hunt. Sounds fun, huh?

Or how about the guy who drew a once-in-a-lifetime sheep tag in Colorado (this story was written up in "Safari" a few years ago), but when he finally got a shooting opportunity, he experienced misfires because one of the rolled pins that holds the bolt body together on his Browning A-Bolt invaded the firing pin raceway and hindered the movement of the firing pin. That A-Bolt sounds like it was money well-saved and invested into CDs (certificates of depreciation) rather than a better rifle, doesn't it?

AD

Apparently Africa is just littered with the corpses of hunters whose $2500.00 custom rifles jammed during a buffalo or lion charge! If only they'd spent nine grand! It is a wonder Remington, Ruger and Winchester [to say nothing of those lesser custom artisans who tweak their rifles for far less than $9,000.00], have not been sued out of existence, what with all the misfeeding and jamming going on. Especially when everyone knows you can't get a Remchester to feed reliably for less than $9K.

With respect to the argument that hunting is not a game for those who care much about their money [those who "split hairs" over what their money might have earned, in Allen's words], I beg to differ. In my experience, those who can afford custom guns and exotic hunts are those who are the most attentive about where there money goes and what constitutes "value". The exceptions to this general rule seem to be those who inherit wealth [or win the lottery]. The wealthy are also the most likely to pay attention to such esoteria as "opportunity costs". Indeed, it is precisely because they are attentive to money matters that they have a great deal to spend on leisure in the first instance.


Jordan

How many arguments can someone come up with not to buy a rifle? I remember a short time ago when one of D'Arcy's Legends rifles sold for around $6,000. Allen correct me if I am wrong. There are few custom rifles that you can buy that appreciate and the legend is one and in the past, a David Miller was another one. They sell used for close to the going price of the new ones it seems but the owners rarely sell them. So if the growth rate of your investment is not taken into considerating you are missing a key element.

If you do not want to buy one of these guns and do not think it is a worthy investment for youself, why does one have this overpowering desire to try to convince everyone else that it is not the right way to go????

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

What you want to do, do it now. You only get one "go-round" in this rodeo we call life. You want a custom rifle? Buy it when you can. (Don't forget, the same goes for telling someone special that you love them.)

Thanks for the wise words...

Most of the things I regret are the things that I didn't do.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
(snip)

If you do not want to buy one of these guns and do not think it is a worthy investment for youself, why does one have this overpowering desire to try to convince everyone else that it is not the right way to go????

Chic,

That has truly baffled me, I can't quite understand it. I guess it is the "I know what's better for you" attitude that some folks have. They simply cannot contain their desire to tell others how they should live or what they should spend their money on.

If you don't want to spend alot of money on a rifle, fine. If you feel that is silly, then by all means PLEASE REFRAIN FROM OPENING THREADS THAT DISCUSS RIFLES MORE EXPENSIVE THEN YOU FEEL NECESSARY AND TELLING EVERYONE THEY SHOULDN'T BUY ONE!!!!!!!

BTW I also wanted to remind members of our forums that D'Arcy is one of our members, and thus I would find it to be at the minimum of courtesy to keep this in mind, though I doubt it would have any effect on the civility or lack therof of our other members.

I also have a friend who saw an Echols classic in 300 win mag with beautiful wood at a gunshow 5-6 years ago. It was 10,500. The same rifle today is priced from him at 20K. He is kicking himself for not making that INVESTMENT. Had he bought it it would have kept up with the invested money quite nicely. Will a legend fetch as much appreciation? Who knows. Things are worth exactly what you can get someone else to pay for it. By the way my first cousin was diagnosed with colon cancer this week at age 54. You can buy a lot of things with money. Unfortunately time is not priced for you and for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
...I simply don't understand why so many people recently have felt the need to castigate those spending $9k on a rifle, it is there money, if that's what they want to spend it on, it is none of your damn business!!! As I've stated many times, it comes across at best as petty jelousy...

I simply don't understand why so many people recently have felt the need to castigate those spending less than $9k on a rifle, it is their money, if that's what they want to spend it on, it is none of your business!!! As I've stated many times, it comes across at best as being arrogant.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
...I wasn't directing the jelousy barb at you, rather an extension from the other thread. ...

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
...That has truly baffled me, I can't quite understand it. I guess it is the "I know what's better for you" attitude that some folks have. They simply cannot contain their desire to tell others how they should live or what they should spend their money on. ...

Hey Paul, I've read and re-read both threads a couple of times and the only one "I see" belitteling people for how they spend their money is the arrogant loud-mouthed blow-hard. I know for sure I've not seen anyone say "do not buy" a rifle because of it's price. I see Jordan mention (what 99% of all people who visit the site believe is true) that regular old factory rifles work just fine, as well as those from GunSmiths not on "The (Holy Grail of GunSmiths) List".

So, if you would "highlight" where someone has put-down in any way Mr. Echols fine rifles, I'd appreciate seeing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
...PLEASE REFRAIN FROM OPENING THREADS THAT DISCUSS RIFLES MORE EXPENSIVE THEN YOU FEEL NECESSARY AND TELLING EVERYONE THEY SHOULDN'T BUY ONE!!!!!!! ...

Has there been some kind of "new Rule" from Saeed that says if a person disagrees, they are to stay out of a thread? Sounds like the old HuntAmerica? Any chance you got the two confused? Or is this "an extension of" ad telling me to post elsewhere over in Brian's Thread?

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
...BTW I also wanted to remind members of our forums that D'Arcy is one of our members, and thus I would find it to be at the minimum of courtesy to keep this in mind, though I doubt it would have any effect on the civility or lack therof of our other members. ...

Hadn't seen anything posted about Mr. Echols having thin skin. Nice of you to let everyone know.

Is Mr.Echols the only GunSmith left on this Board? Since you brought it up, I have noticed myself that the vast majority of GunSmiths who used to post here have just vanished.

To name just one, GunSmiths like John Lewis who can make as accurate and as reliable a rifle as anyone else, just no longer posts here. And NOBODY has ever said John Lewis ever produced a bad rifle, but he is gone. Any chance at all they get tired of arrogant loud-mouthed blow-hards saying they can't possibly build a rifle correctly and their customers are morons? What do you think Paul?

Come to think of it until ad saw chuck post after his loonacy, he had Bill Leeper in that pile as well. How well do you think Mr. Leeper appreciates having someone say (by default) that he doesn't know how to make a rifle feed reliably or balance properly?

quote:

I simply don't understand why so many people recently have felt the need to castigate those spending less than $9k on a rifle, it is their money, if that's what they want to spend it on, it is none of your business!!! As I've stated many times, it comes across at best as being arrogant

Funny, I've never, ever seen any one "castigated" for spending less than 9K on a rifle as you state. As to "being arrogant" I've never seen that either but then how we perceive others has as much to do with ourselves as with the other person. HotCore, you may want to consider it's you with the problem and not the rest of the world you're seemingly intent on molding to your image and station in life... speaking of arrogance.

Well, when one simply cannot discuss this, or any topic, without continually denigrating other posters while refusing to reply to questions concerning the actual field hunting experience one has, it is apparent who the real "blowhard" is. To further state that ...99%... of the members here entertain a certain attitude without knowing said members may just be a bit ...arrogant...but, what would I know, I haven't faced ...charging Elephants... or even ...taken out...four guys at once!

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
and then there is the opposite equation. "If I would have just bought that $9000 rifle instead of hanging out in that bar buying all those girls drinks At least I'd still have the gun"

It's just money.
Terry

Terry:

Oh I dunno, I've spent a helluva lot more than $9000 in bars around the world over the years and some of the memories, good and bad, are worth MUCH more than a Legend which is only a tool, albeit an expensive one.

For instance, there was that night in Thailand.....

Hey Hot Core what part of this, posted Aug 1, 2005 don't ypu understand?

quote:

There is no way everyone could would or should own an Echols "Legend". We are all very much aware of that. I turn 29 on Friday, just started a family and recently graduated from University. I'm also fresh at the beginning of a career path. I've taken 10 yrs of student loan debt and ammortized them over 5. Leaving me a little strapped. However, I have a few dollars invested in Outstanding rifles, my favourite being a Bill Leeper Model 70, and will compliment it sooner than later with a "Legend". Ammortize that over a 40 yr hunting carreer and It seems like a darn good investment to me.

Chuck

I'm using that Leeper rifle as an insurance policy to hunt Elk, Sheep, Whitetails (the big kind), and Black Bear this fall. It's well up to the task. I'd appreciate it if you'd quit lying on my behalf.

Chuck

THAT is about as likely as Bill Klinton becoming a gentleman....or Hillary becoming a lady, some things are a "great notion".....

I find a lot of the comments here to be quite amusing, it's truly funny to see how grown men get all bent out of shape about a subject so benign as a damned rifle.
The Legend is worth exactly what it costs the buyer. Apparently a lot of hunters feel it is worth that amount because they are lined up to have one built. All of these folks like what Echols does and feel his price is justified enough in the finished product to not pass on them because of the price. Do any of these buyers "need" one to go hunting? That's up to them, and anyone who feels differently is under no obligation to follow along and buy one. If you feel you are risking your hunt and/or your life if you leave home without one....then by all means don't leave home without one! If owning perfection is what you're about then you NEED it, and those are facts...period.
Anyone who has not handled or owned one of these rifles really has no business making judgement calls about what they cost,how good they are and whether or not they are over rated. Unless you have you can't begin to know that. And, too compare them to another's product and say Mr. XYZ can build one that will feed and function and shoot and handle just as good, is also total bullshit. Unless you have owned rifles by both makers you can't make that claim and have an ounce of credibility attached to it.
That's the one thing most if not all Echols' rifle owners have going for them...they can make some valid comparisons because they have owned someone else's product before and/or during the time they owned an Echols rifle. Folks who are willing to spend what it takes to own one typically have rifle and hunting experience that is far more extensive than the average hunter. I take opinions from such folks a lot more seriously than I do from some guy whose hunting experience is limited to sitting in a tree stand out in the back forty, holding onto his pet M700 that he bought and "tuned" up himself.

John,

Given the number of Echols you have you are either very happy with them or you are a slow learner

Mike

A common underlying theme on the criticism of Echols ownership is one upmanship, name dropping etc and etc.

But no one would buy an Echols for those sort of reasons. Most people have never heard of them. As to price, when compared to a bolt action from H&H or Purdey the Echols is very cheap. Detacable mounts and a canvass gun bag from H&H will cost as much as an Echols.

So in reality these are rifles that are purchased on the basis of function/accuracy alone and commonsense will tell anyone that buyers of Echols rifles have already owned many different rifles.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by CanadianLefty:
Hi all,

I quickly crunched some numbers to see what the true cost of purchasing a $9k rifle is compared to a $3.5K rifle if the difference was invested (I know, too rational isn't it ).

Taking a simple approach and assuming 7% compound interest (conservative), over a 30 year period (assuming we will live that much longer) the $5500 difference would have grown to about $40,000! Sure, $40,000 in the future will be worth less than $40,000 today, but accounting for inflation at an average of 3.5%, it would still be worth about $15,000. That would amount to one really great hunt!

In the final analysis, there are many other tangible and intangible variables that come into play that may increase or decrease the $15,000 loss considerably. For instance, if you can invest at an even higher rate of return (say 12%), the loss will be much larger. If you can't or would not have invested the money and you are able to make a few incredible shots on game that you would not have been able to make with a lesser quality rifle, and the rifle value keeps up or surpasses the rate of inflation and keeps you from buying even more cheaper quality rifles, then you just made the best investment of your life.

I just wanted to throw in opportunity cost and provide a different perspective than we normally use when making a firearm purchase.

What is your thinking on this?

I guess the real difference is for 3500$ you`ll have an action "in the white", and for the rest of the 5500$ you`ll have a gun !

So there is a big difference !.

Mike-
I think a lot of what you say is true! I also wonder if all of the detractors who say they wouldn't buy one because they are grossly overpriced and no better than Mr. XYZ's $2500 rifle would pass them over if they too were priced at that level? I believe all goods, including custom rifles, are priced at what the market will tolerate. If the buyer believes he's getting good value for his money, the builder will have a backlog of orders. If the buyer feels the product isn't up to a level worthy of the price, then that builder will have lots of free time to spend on the phone or the hunting forums!
And lastly, lest any of you think I am just some "arrogant, loud mouthed blowhard" or some fool... I still own and use rifles by other very reputable builders. My most favored rifle, the one I have carried around the world several times, is not a Legend! And I'll be the first one to say that it isn't as good either.

Hey Paul Where did you go? No desire to argue with you at all. Just interested in your thoughts on my previous questions. It is apparent no one else wanted to tackle them either.

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
...I simply don't understand why so many people recently have felt the need to castigate those spending $9k on a rifle, it is there money, if that's what they want to spend it on, it is none of your damn business!!! As I've stated many times, it comes across at best as petty jelousy...

I simply don't understand why so many people recently have felt the need to castigate those spending less than $9k on a rifle, it is their money, if that's what they want to spend it on, it is none of your business!!! As I've stated many times, it comes across at best as being arrogant.

So the guy who "by his own admission" does not understand how to properly work a Bolt Action did not understand the sarcasm of changing 3 words in Paul's post and thus re-stating it. Doesn't surprise me in the least.

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
...I wasn't directing the jelousy barb at you, rather an extension from the other thread. ...

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
...That has truly baffled me, I can't quite understand it. I guess it is the "I know what's better for you" attitude that some folks have. They simply cannot contain their desire to tell others how they should live or what they should spend their money on. ...

Hey Paul, I've read and re-read both threads a couple of times and the only one "I see" belitteling people for how they spend their money is the arrogant loud-mouthed blow-hard. I know for sure I've not seen anyone say "do not buy" a rifle because of it's price. I see Jordan mention (what 99% of all people who visit the site believe is true) that regular old factory rifles work just fine, as well as those from GunSmiths not on "The (Holy Grail of GunSmiths) List".

So, if you would "highlight" where someone has put-down in any way Mr. Echols fine rifles, I'd appreciate seeing it.

How `bout the highlights of those people that put down Mr.Echols?

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
...PLEASE REFRAIN FROM OPENING THREADS THAT DISCUSS RIFLES MORE EXPENSIVE THEN YOU FEEL NECESSARY AND TELLING EVERYONE THEY SHOULDN'T BUY ONE!!!!!!! ...

Has there been some kind of "new Rule" from Saeed that says if a person disagrees, they are to stay out of a thread? Sounds like the old HuntAmerica? Any chance you got the two confused? Or is this "an extension of" ad telling me to post elsewhere over in Brian's Thread?

Any new Rules?

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
...BTW I also wanted to remind members of our forums that D'Arcy is one of our members, and thus I would find it to be at the minimum of courtesy to keep this in mind, though I doubt it would have any effect on the civility or lack therof of our other members. ...

Hadn't seen anything posted about Mr. Echols having thin skin. Nice of you to let everyone know.

Is Mr.Echols the only GunSmith left on this Board? Since you brought it up, I have noticed myself that the vast majority of GunSmiths who used to post here have just vanished.

Where did they all go?

quote:

To name just one, GunSmiths like John Lewis who can make as accurate and as reliable a rifle as anyone else, just no longer posts here. And NOBODY has ever said John Lewis ever produced a bad rifle, but he is gone. Any chance at all they get tired of arrogant loud-mouthed blow-hards saying they can't possibly build a rifle correctly and their customers are morons? What do you think Paul?

Good place to ask John S how his very own John Lewis rifle is, less functional, less reliable, less well balanced and less accurate" than his other rifles. How `bout it John S? I do believe it was you who said:

quote:

Anyone who has not handled or owned one of these rifles (an Echols) really has no business making judgement calls about what they cost,how good they are and whether or not they are over rated. Unless you have you can't begin to know that. And, too compare them to another's product and say Mr. XYZ can build one that will feed and function and shoot and handle just as good, is also total bullshit. Unless you have owned rifles by both makers you can't make that claim and have an ounce of credibility attached to it.

Since I'd mentioned the excellent rifles made by John Lewis, it really looks like you were refering to his rifles. So, how is your Echols better than your Lewis? I've found that Mr. John will do whatever you ask him to do with a rifle and then a bit more.

quote:

Come to think of it until ad saw chuck post after his loonacy, he had Bill Leeper in that pile as well. How well do you think Mr. Leeper appreciates having someone say (by default) that he doesn't know how to make a rifle feed reliably or balance properly?

quote:

by chuck:
I'd appreciate it if you'd quit lying on my behalf.

I see chuck and kutee both like to call folks Liers. Speaks volumes for their character and rearing. And it is apparent chuck can't follow the posts in the other thread AT ALL. After the arrogant loud-mouth blow-hard trashed all GunSmiths and their customers on "The(Holy Grail of GunSmiths) List", Mr. Leeper was in that group. Then once chuck posted, ad realized he had included Mr. Leeper with his broad trashing of all others statements and came back with a nice comment about Mr. Leeper.

The nice thing is, I saved it all in my post in Brian's thread. ad can't go back and erase the post of his I responded to and it all disappear. It is right there for everyone to see.

Oh yes, anyone care to estimate the odds of me doing anything on "chucks behalf"?
---

So, Paul and John, I'm all ready for you both to educate me in regards to the above questions. No desire to argue, just interested in your thoughts. In fact, so you will know I'm serious about no desire to argue, this will be my last post to this thread unless you ask a question of me. Look forward to your answers.

HC-
I can't help you there because I do not own any rifles made by Mr. Lewis. But, I can offer up a few reasons why the Echols rifles are better than my others. They feed better, so much so that unless you can actually handle one and see for yourself there is no way to convey the difference, their magazines hold more cartridges w/o having the "drop box" magazine, their scope mounts have a refined and elegant look, as well as being far more rugged, their triggers feel more refined and smooth, they are a lot more tolerant of various loadings that use different bullets, their inletting and bedding is superior when they arrive. Oh, almost forgot...they shoot really well with hunting bullets like TSXs, partitions, North Forks and Fail Safes.

This thread has gone in a very typical direction that similar threads of its ilk have previously taken.

There seems to be a mentality about that says, "All opinions are absolutely, 100% equal in quality and substance, and NO rifle may be discussed without challenge or criticism if the stated price of the product in question exceeds anyone's personal understanding, experience, or budget!"

Proof enough, I guess, that water seeks its own level everytime, which is a fact of physics, and an unfortunate fact of human nature as well.

The funny part of all this is, there have been LOTS of fine, expensive custom rifles showcased on these forums over the years, and I think if some of the diehard critics knew how much many of these rifles likely went for -- many of them for far, far more than the cost of an Echols 'Legend' -- a lot of the criticism would take on a whole new direction.

All I can say is this: If the price of a given rifle is more than you're willing to spend, don't buy it. If you can afford a custom rifle that costs $2500 but no more, keep your project within those financial paremeters, and not a penny more. If you think that your Browning A-Bolt is just as good as any rifle on the planet, then stick with it.

Maybe we'll be able to distill the theme and content of this thread to the point that we'll make everyone happy and comfortable after all.

Now wouldn't that be nice?

AD

In all good humor someone asked the "experianced" here for the list of failures that has brought them to the point of requiring guns to be made over by the crème de la crème of smiths.

Does it read like this from them?

I had a M12 that I got my finger cut on when I tried to load it fast. I never used a M12 again til it was worked over by Tiffanys.

I had a M94 that jammed when I shot again at a buck. I always sent my M94's to Tiffanys after that.

I had a 721 and the bolt handle fell off in my hands. I sent that one back to Remington, sold it and switched to Winchesters.

Signed

Mr. Experiance

Now for myself if I had guns fail over the last half century I would get them worked on too and would agree with Mr. Experiance. This has not happened to my guns and I use them in hot, cold, wet etc. On the other hand I check them out myself but it could just be the law of averages that some have have had gun failures. It could happen.

In any case don't get all worked up over it. Just list the failures of your old guns and what happened to you. Some may have even had guns fail and got mauled really bad. They may not even be using guns for self defense, target shooting or hunting.

I think that this post was, in part, directed at me, so I will post some of my expEriences to demonstrate why I hold the opinions that I do. Of course, the sort of conditions that I regularly deal with simply do not exist in the "suburban" eastern U.S., consequently, my level of need for reliablity in my bush tools differs from someone who only hunts there. Wilderness living/hunting is much different than those whose knowledge of it comes only from reading appear to assume it is, so, actual expEriance is the best indicator of the validity of one's opinions.

The first big game rifle I purchased was a Mod. 94 Winchester, "Antique" which had feeding problems from the beginning and nothing would make it work properly. I sold it to a guy who liked the case-coloured receiver.

My second rifle was a Brno 21H, in 1965 and the problem with this superb factory rifle was that the safety would not lock the bolt which would then come open when snagged by a twig and you could lose your bolt as well as be unprepared for a sudden shot. I did not lose my bolt, but, sold the rifle as it simply did not function as a working rifle in rugged mountains should.

My lovely Husqvarna 4100 came withh a weak magazine spring and would not feed properly, a distinct problem even in the dangerous, demanding world of soybean fields, feeders and towerstands. I replaced this spring and had it "tuned" by a local 'smith, now retired.

I had the alloy bottom metal on a pushfeed Ruger 77 in .338 split on me one cold morning up the Yalakom River and this rendered the rifle unservicable; this is Grizzly country and one tends to want a reliable rifle at hand....

The mate to the above developed feeding problems on that same trip due to the sloppy fit between the upper arm of the W spring and the mortise in the follower, a replacement at home, some 300 miles away fixed this, but, the rifle was not dependable in REAL wilderness country.....

I bought a lovely Sako Finnwolf about 1978 and took it to a rural friend's place to sight it in; the magazines would not allow even ONE cartridge to feed into the chamber....on a SAKO, yet...it cost me a fair bit to get this fixed. The rifle then functioned properly and I gave it to my young nephew just last week as a .308 is a borderline cartridge here, in today's hunting conditions.

I must repeat, I have NEVER had even the slightest glitch or bobble with any of the 33 P-64 Mod. 70s that I have owned, from unfired examples to well-worn veterans and my consistently most accurate shooting has been with them. But, what would I know, I mean there are REAL experts here to criticise and mock what they have never done and could not do if they had the opportunity. Personally, if I did not have actual big game and dangerous game experience, I would keep my fucking mouth shut or ask courteous questions of those who do instead of indulging in infantile behaviour such as that typical of Hot Core.....but, we couldn't be that lucky...................

Kute, up where you live and in your line of work you go up against things that most people could never understand and would never understand.

People always have a tendancy to doubt what they haven't experienced for themselves. If all they every do is sit on their dead a$$ and punch paper or else sit on a stand for whitetails and haven't had any trouble with the Remington 700 for such use, they're not going to believe any other brand of testimony. There's always some idea afoot that rifle muckups just don't happen, and if they haven't happened to them, they don't happen to anybody.

Personally, I have never, ever discussed rifles with a professional guide anywhere who didn't relate horror stories about rifle failures -- either rifles he's owned himself or rifles that clients have brought hunting, and usually both.

Most of the clients who buy top custom rifles from guys who are true performance-oriented riflemakers who build beyond the tired iconic parameter of "benchrest-accuracy" do so because they hunt a lot, and because they've had rifle failures before that have colored their thinking about rifles. They want to eliminate failures to insulate their hunting investment and their physical well-being, it's as simple as all that.

AD

This crap that you have to spend 9k for a rifle to be reliable is the biggest bunch of damn shit I have ever heard in my life. I see it as some successful people who are like look at all the money they have. They got themselves a safe full of 9k or 15k rifles or whatever the hell they cost. Who cares?

I'm sure the biggest majority of game animals in the world have been killed with rifles costing no more than a 6th of that complete scope and all, a lot of them less than that, and a lot of them feed every time. I know very few people who can afford 9k for a rifle yet alone half that. Most of them that I know who could afford to spend 9k on a rifle wouldn't spend it anyway, they see it as very stupid money move.

Am I jealous what someone else spends on a rifle? Hell no I could care less, as it has been said it is their business. If I can afford to. spend that much on a rifle someday will I? Probably but it will be a nice quality double before it will be a bolt action. By the time I can afford to spend that much I probably wouldnt worry to much by then about 9k. Think about it this way it is still cheaper than a harley davidson. Now I wouldnt give you 10dollars for a Harley other than to turn around and resale it.
Will a Mercedez get you there any better than a honda car. It won't. Does a mercedez cost more yes. Is a mercedez fancier and classier than a honda yes it is. Does a mercedez run any better than a honda hell no. Will a mercedez outlast a honda I highly doubt it. Had I rather have a mercedez than a honda yes. I drive neither one. And when I have the money for a mercedez neither one would probably be my choice. I would take a nice truck over either one. Can get a whole lot more use out of it. I would probably guess that a honda serviced properly would probably outlast just about anything on the road.

Seems like some of you are saying that D' Arcy Echols is the only person in the whole world who can build a rifle that is completely reliable. So you are saying that no one else is as good as he is, that he can't be replaced, that he is some kind of superman or something? That is the way I take it.
Well he may be a great gunsmith I don't deny that. I've never used one of his rifles so I can't say either way, I can only take someone else's word for it.
Thing is D' Arcy is not superhuman. He puts his shoes on the same way I do, when he shits it comes out the sameway as anyone else, it stinks just like anyone else's shit.
SO what happens when D' Arcy stops building rifles or he gets to where he is not able to anymore, which will happen to all of us someday. Are you saying that no one else in the world will be able to build a reliable rifle. So for those who dont own one of his rifles what are they to do stop hunting. I mean there won't be any gunsmith's to make a rifle reliable right?? That is what it seems to me like some of you are trying to say. So for those of you who are why dont you sell off all of your rifles other than your heirlooms, as none of your other rifles are any good right?

I'm sure there are a lot of famous hunts, hunters, and safaris that have taken place over the years when there was no such thing as a D' Arcy Echols rifle.
I only started visiting these forums a few months ago, before that I never even knew of D' Arcy Echols.

I tell you what I will do. If any of you or anyone you know will be willing to sponsor me. I will take a rifle from any of the major rifle manufactures. Winchester, ruger, CZ, remington, etc. with just a few hundered dollars worth of gunsmith work and hunt anything in Africa. Heck I will even do one better. I will take one straight from the factory, clean the packing grease out of it, shoot it a few times to get familiar with it and if any of you will sponsor me I will go with a good ph and hunt anything in africa and prove that it can be done without fuss if any of you will take me up on this offer?

I bet that no one will take me up on it though..

quote:

from Chic
If you do not want to buy one of these guns and do not think it is a worthy investment for youself, why does one have this overpowering desire to try to convince everyone else that it is not the right way to go????

This is a very fair question and deserves a fair answer. Bottom line, there is no need to try to convince anyone they shouldn't buy a rifle such as a "Legend". On this I agree 100%. I also agree that if you feel you need the utmost in reliability that a "Legend" affords then you are only shortchanging yourself by not buying one. I really think many are on the same page here.

Now, if I may, is it not just as fair and courteous to say that if a person DOESN'T need one of these rifles that the same people who think they need one should be content to say "I realize you don't need one, and you will get along just fine with your "Remchester" or "Sauger"?

If a person really stops and figures what percent of the TOTAL amount of people who hunt and live in the U.S. really are going to find themselves in a position where they are facing "Dangerous game" it is very likely a small percent. I don't know exactly what it would be but let's just say 15%. What this tells me is that 85 out of 100 hunters don't actually need a rifle that is what is commonly called a "Dangerous game rifle". As for rifles failing, I'm sure it happens, but to what regularity I question. I have been playing with rifles of one sort or another for almost fifty years and my Dad always said I traded rifles like most people changed underwear. I honestly have to say the biggest problems I have had was keeping the floorplate from opening on a Ruger 77 and one Remington 700. I found that duct tape worked wonders on making these two more reliable until I eventually traded them for something I liked better. It has further been my experience that most, but certainly not all, of the rifles that fail have been messed with in one way or another and usually by folks that couldn't sweep a true gunsmith's floor. I have actually found most new factory rifles to be pretty accurate and reliable for the average hunter. As sopmeone so wisely said, benchrest aaccuracy isn't needed for most hunting. Others mileage may vary but I have found from personal experience that most, again most certainly not all, folks who have trouble with their guns have trouble with most everything they own or are folks who are never satisfied with anything they own.

One last thing that I really feel should be mentioned is the difference in hunting in different parts of the world. When I lived and hunted in the Midwest I rarely was over five or ten miles from a replacement rifle if I needed one. I might add I never did. It's easy to not worry about what might happen to a rifle in these conditions. Now hunting in the West can often be a completely different "ball game". I have been many miles from a road for several days at a time in Idaho. I know many others have too. It is then a little easier for me to be a little bit more concerned with what might happen that could make a rifle to quit functioning properly. However, again I have never had a problem on such a hunting trip. I know I don't have as much hunting experience as many on this board. I have never hunted "Dangerous game" and probably never will. But by the same token I actually believe I probably have a bit more hunting experience than the AVERAGE hunter in the U.S. I really can't say I have seen many of the horror stories commonly talked about. I'm sure most are true, but I really wonder what percent of all total hunters these comprise. Whatever number that is, they all should have the most reliable rifle made. That may very well be a "Legend" at the present time.

Calm off, this isn't about throwing money around or showing off. I'm sorry if we continue to make you unhappy and that you've missed the actual point of what's been said here, but not all of this testimony is going to fit within the parameters of your personal experience or budget.

It's not intended to, and no apologies will be offered. Let's face it, someone could talk about a $1,000 rifle he bought, which might sounds like a fortune to a guy that saved to purchase a Remington Model 710, and the 710 guy might fly into a jealous tizzy over $1,000 rifle talk. You can't make everyone happy, and just because you delare "bull$hit" doesn't make it thus.........

No one has ever said that any single gunmaker is the ONLY craftsman who is capable of turning out a reliable rifle, or that you must pass a $9500 threshold in order to purchase a quality rifle, and I've previously sited examples of less-expensive, but still excellent rifles in previous threads myself. You don't have to spend that much money on an Echols rifle, either.....

But if someone posted a photo of a fine and pretty rifle by a good maker or team of good makers, the price of which being generally unknown, there'd be applause all around and no negative talk whatsoever. Tell 'em, though, that the actual price was $20,000 (and such rifles have been posted here many times), and all of a sudden the praise would cease, and all of the detractors would make themselves heard..........

I know this much, customers patronize such riflebuilders for a reason, and not all of these clients are wealthy by any means. But most of them tend to hunt a LOT, and all of them want rifles that go beyond the norm. They want performance, and they know that quality costs the least in the long run.

AD