Jarrod, you need to reread some of this stuff. Especially posts written by Allen Day, John S., and Kutenay. If you can't find, and prove, where these guys have used rifles other than stuff built by Echols to successfully hunt, I'll pay for that trip. You're going to have to look at three different threads here, and it may require more than selective reading.

Chuck.

I have to say that a few people on here such as Allen Day, Ray Atkinson and a few other people on here I definately pay attention to their posts as I am sure they have a lot more experience than I will ever have. and i think they are very sensible down to earth genuine people.
I never said anything about Allen Day, John S. or kutenay. I just said it seems to be the opinion of somepeople on here that you cant get a reliable rifle for under 9k. And it was definately not aimed at either of those 3.
I was only meaning in general that is seems to be the opinion of some people.
I also said that if I had 9k to spend on a rifle that I probably would., but I said that it would probably be a double and not a bolt action. I have the video of Allen Day on safari with Mark Sullivan and I may be wrong but I dont believe the rifle that Allen Day is using is an echols but I am sure he will let us kow what it is.

Chuck Nelson I really don't want you to pay for my trip to Africa unless you just want to. I have read some of the three peoples posts on here that you mention. I was just saying that to make a point that I would hunt anything in the world with a factory rifle, I would also do it with a custom rifle. I would do it with a custom rifle other than an echols is what I am saying.

To make it short my opinion is that I dont believe you have to have a 9k rifle for it to be reliable, and that I dont believe D' Arcy Echols is the only person who can make a reliable rifle, but if I had one yes I would use it. That is just my opinion. If your opinion is different from mine that is ok too.

quote:

ll I can say is this: If the price of a given rifle is more than you're willing to spend, don't buy it. If you can afford a custom rifle that costs $2500 but no more, keep your project within those financial paremeters, and not a penny more. If you think that your Browning A-Bolt is just as good as any rifle on the planet, then stick with it.

Maybe we'll be able to distill the theme and content of this thread to the point that we'll make everyone happy and comfortable after all.

Now wouldn't that be nice?

Great post Allen.


You're right when you say it shouldn't be about money. The type of hunting and what your wants are will usually determine what a person actually ends up with.



Matter of fact I'm considering an upgrade to my favorite go-to rifle. It's a Remington 710 and I am contemplating putting a little better scope than the Bushnell now on it. Someone has told me that a Ziess "Conquest" or Leupold vx III will make a real hunting rifle out of it.

Idared,
I diddn't say it that 9k would be more than would be willing to spend. Cause I said that if I had it I probably would.
Once again I what I said was that I dont think you have to spend 9k to have a reliable rifle and if you disagree with me that is perfectly ok.
Last car I bought I give from my friend who owns a car lot I give 2800 dollars with 18k miles on it. It was supposedly storm damaged, it has a scratch on the bumper if you call that storm damage and the scratch is not consistent with storm damage.I call it insurance job. A pint of white paint and scratches will be covered up. Is it pretty and sexy no, is it an completely ugly car no, will it get me there reliably yes. My truck a bought when it was 2 years old and it only had 7500miles on it, I give 6500dollars. Now has 80,000 miles. Never had to do anything except general maintenance change oil etc things that you have to or should do anyway. Alot more moving parts than a bolt action rifle. Both of them very reliable every time still only 300 more for both of them than a 9k rifle. Yeah I know that they will depreciate etc. etc. but I will get more use out of the 2 of them than a rifle

If you were an investor would you give 550,000 for a house when you could have the same house built in the same area for 175,000 I doubt it.

Jarrod, the rifle I used in 1995 in the Sullivan film is a 300 Win. Mag. built on a Model 70 action with a Hart bbl. and a McMillan stock by Glen Pearce of Casa Grande, AZ. I ordered it in early 1994 at SCI, started hunting with it in the fall of 1994, and shot a ton of game with over the next few years, from sheep to elk to Cape buffalo. It was and is a great rifle, and I recently sold it to one of my best friends who I've hunted with for 23 years (you talk about adventures!) who's taking it to Africa next year on a safari we're doing together, which is how my friend wants it to be.

I supplied an action and paid Pearce $2500 for that rifle, and it was a great investment. If Glen was still building rifles, I'd recommend his work without hesitation, because he was a great and highly-qualified riflemaker -- former USAF high-power competitor, national high-power award-winner and 1,000 yd. specialist, trained in the USAF Armorer's School, etc.

Echols didn't start building 'glass-stocked rifles until I think 1998 or thereabouts, and I ordered my first one from him at SCI in 1999, started hunting with that first rifle in the spring of 2000.

AD

Allen,
Now I am curious about the cape buffalo and the 300 Win. Mag. What loads, distance, performance etc. Not that I will probably ever try it, but just wondering because I really like the 300 Win Mag.

Jarrod

I agree that you don't have to spend $9000 on a rifle to get one that is reliable. I don't think many are arguing that point. I have also went on record as saying I don't feel I need a $7000 or whatever a "Legend" rifle costs nowdays for what hunting I do or plan to do in the future. BUT, that doesn't mean that these rifles are not worth what they cost to some people. They obviously are or the wait time wouldn't be as long as it is. I am also not saying I can't afford one because I no doubt could, and I could probably afford more than one if I wanted to part with some of the rifles I already own. I am not willing to do either as of now. It is as simple as that. But, as has been mentioned, the fact that people such as Allen, who own more than one of them, must be happy with them or they wouldn't be willing to wait the time it takes to get them. You can say that one is not worth what it costs to you, but you can't say that it is not worth what it costs to anyone. There is a big difference in those two lines of thinking.

Your scenario about the houses is a real stretch. I'm sorry, but I can't even remotely consider that as worthy of an argument and if you really look at it I don't see where you can either. Unless the houses are identical in every way you are comparing a good custom rifle with a Remington 710 without the upgraded scope on it that I referred to with tongue in cheek above.

I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is comparing apples to oranges rather than admitting they don't choose to own something for a reason other than direct comparison. This works both ways as I have run into some folks who have to have the best that money can buy no matter what it is and feel everything else that cost less is inferior. BY the same token some folks who can't afford the higher priced items are also jealous of those who can and feel they must point out what a waste of money it is to own such things.

I don't want to offend you, or anyone else for that matter, but you're statement I diddn't say it that 9k would be more than would be willing to spend. Cause I said that if I had it I probably would. leaves me a little puzzled as to where you are coming from. It sounds to me as if you are saying if you had the money the rifle would be worth the $9000, but since you don't have it, it is not. You may mean something else entirely, but perhaps it could have been worded a little more clearer.

It is amazing how a pissin match can get started over such a simple thing.
If you have the 9k and want and feel a 9k gun will do a better job then buy it.
I am sure that a well done,not pretty, gun by some of the lessor known smiths will kill just as well as a 9k custom big name gun.
Simple guys, very simple

[QUOTE]Originally posted by allen day:
Jarrod, the rifle I used in 1995 in the Sullivan film is a 300 Win. Mag. built on a Model 70 action with a Hart bbl. and a McMillan stock by Glen Pearce of Casa Grande, AZ.

---------------------------

I'd like to toss in here that Glen Pearce is one of the best "real" gunsmiths I have ever met.

He & Jimmy Smith (ex-AAMU gunsmith) and their partner Martin Edmundsen, once built me a competition M-14 when their company was in Florence, AZ. It would hold numerous makes of standard issue military ball in a MOA at 100 yards...even though the ammo didn't test that well even in its acceptance trials by the military! Glen also re-worked a Benelli B-76 model 9 m/m semi-auto pistol for me into the smoothest operating, best trigger-pull auto I have ever owned...and as in my youth I was a competitive pistol shooter, I've owned a few. I've still got it, even now that the hi-caps have been the rage for 20 years and the Benelli only holds 8 rounds.

Anything any one can talk Glen into doing for them on a gun, he will do superlatively well. His only failing is he is NOT a promoter, so he will never get rich at the trade. But, for real workmanship, in my opinion there is no one can make a rifle or pistol work more dependably.

Edited to include Martin's name...

What I meant if I had the 9k to spend I would give it for a rifle, but what I meant was it wouldn't have to be a Echols rifles. I wouldnt be hung up that the only good rifle for 9k is an echols. To me I would just as soon give that for a searcy double or a Rigby rifle etc. I personally dont like custom rifles that dont have wooden stocks unless I am going to use it in Alaska then I might want a plastic stock.
A lot of you are taking this as an attack and it was not meant to be that way.
Even if you have the money which I am not jealous of you if you do.
That I personally believe you can get a reliable rifle for less. That is as simple and straightforward as I know how to put it. I cant make it any simpler than that.
If you disagree with me ok please leave it at that.

Jarrod, if you look back on one of the recent threads you'll see that I had a custom 416 Rem. Mag. made that was a real dog. It was such a dog that I had a local gunmaker rework a factory Model 70 458 Win. Mag. to take to Africa in its stead, and the 458 turned out to be a good rifle, especially on paper at the range. But in Africa, I worked the bolt hard and fast during an episode with a hippo and the rifle slamfired because the trigger was set too light. And no, stupidly I didn't have the tools on hand to fix it. Sullivan recommended that we not use the 458 for the balance of the safari, and I agreed that this was prudent.

So this domino effect of poor gunsmithing proceedures left me with a 300 Win. Mag. and Winchester 180 gr. Fail-Safe factory ammunition to use for the balance of my safari, and I had two Cape buffalo, plus lion and leopard to go, as well as assorted plainsgame animals.

The plan was that Mark and his son would both provide backup as needed (both armed with doubles), and I'd shoot as well as I could. Simple! The 300 hammered the leopard with ease, and the lion was killed instantly from about 50 yds. out with one off-hand shot through the shoulders. I aimed for the spine and shot both buffalo off-hand from about 100 yds. out, and both of them went down right away, without fuss. No backup was required, and once again, the message was hammered home that bullet placement counts for more than sheer horsepower. I'll also add that, if I had been shooting a lesser bullet than those tough, wonderful Fail-Safes out the of the 300, I wouldn't have done as well with the buffalo.

You can read about these episodes a bit more in Mark's book, "Death And Double Rifles".

http://www.nitroexpress.tv

But I came home and swore that I'd never find myself in that sort of position again, and I sought out a better maker of true dangerous game custom bolt-guns. That's why I do business with Echols, and that's why this season I'll hunt with Sullivan once again and have my favorite Echols 300 Win. Mag. and 416 Rem. Mag. along as my only rifles.

Some things go way beyond price..........

AD

Allen

You hunt with Sullivan. Do you espouse to his theory that to hunt dangerous game you have to be ready to die!!

No, I don't agree with Mark on that manner of hunting. I hunt the old-fashioned way, and he has no problem with that. He's a great PH just the same, and we've been friends for many years.........

AD

JEES, you guys just go on and on....
Some of you will never know the pleasure of taking game with a truly custom rifle

... and some of us will.
I've been hunting this one for ten years, have taken 15 head of game with it and it seem to still be working, and the stock seems sound, huh, wonder how that could be?
OH, and it cost a lot more than a Legend.
SDH

SDH, now you did it......

You shouldn't have stated that your fine single-shot cost a lot more than a 'Legend'! Now you'll get persecuted for sure........

AD

I've enoyed this thread from afar (well sort of), and I truly love the one shooters...

Nice piece!

MD

Oh geez, "termite food and rust blue"....must be one of the guys here who just doesn't know anything about rifles, eh? Probably needs to chuck it in the the trash before P.O.Ackley tells him it is going to blowup and get himself a REAL rifle at Wallyworld where all the REAL hunters shop.......how about a stainless/plastic A-bolt????

Funny thing, I seem to remember the trigger on a stainless A-Bolt of mine sheering off just below the stockline as I dropped the hammer on a pretty good whitetail buck. But I've read here that factory rifles are infalible and stainless and plastic are bomb proof. Musta been a bad dream.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by gnmkr:
JEES, you guys just go on and on....
Some of you will never know the pleasure of taking game with a truly custom rifle
... and some of us will.
SDH

I believe the pleasure is in the hunt, not in the tools. And why hint at how much it costs? Who cares?

HP Shooter,

I believe the pleasure is in the hunt and in the tools. Last season I took great pleasure in taking a whitetail with a 1900 vintage commercial mauser. I think the old Weaver scope was less clear than looking with my naked eye. The rifle performed wonderfully.

How many of us have said in our lives "where has the quality gone?" or "they don't build them like they used to" A better question might be to ask how many people have handled an Echols rifle and said it was a piece of crap? D'Arcy is one of the few who does not compromise when it comes to quality. D'Arcy thinks about the details of his rifles in ways the "normal" man would think are insane.

I'm proud to say I own two "legends" and my African battery is slightly different from Allen as I'll be taking a .300 Wby and a .416 Rem to Africa in 06. If I'm traveling to the corners of the globe I will take the best made, most reliable rifle I can afford.

For the record I do not place guns in my vault in a particular order, and I buy a hell of a lot more $500-$2000 rifles than I do more expensive rifles. I spend time shooting all of them.

Bryan

If you don't care about the tools, why waste any time here?

Terry

Now, THAT makes sense!!!

quote:

I believe the pleasure is in the hunt, not in the tools.

HP Shooter,

That statement of yours is at the very core of why these threads run. Exactly the same type thread also runs on calibre choice.

Your opposite number is the person who only sees the animals as a final test of the gun and ammunition. Then of course we have the person who sits in between those two extremes.

In each of the 3 cases each person will hold a different view as to what makes the ideal rifle or the ideal calibre.

I am staggered by the fact that the Echols knockers are unable to see or grasp the simple fact that there are 3 or 4 people on these threads that have 2 or more Echols rifles. An extremely simple conclusion that can be drawn from that simple fact is that the people concerned must see value for the money in the Echols rifles to repeat the process

In addition there is just no way one would buy an Echols rifle except for reasons of function and accuracy. The Legend is a very plain looking rifle that most people have never heard of and most people on seeing one from a few feet away would think it was just a plain M70 in a glass stock.

It is also reasonable to say that all Echols Legend owners will have come to Echols via other previous custom rifles. If the Echols Legends were a waste of money then the people concerned would return to the cheaper rifles as opposed to increasing the number of Echols they own. The people concerned are obviously keen on value for money because in the world of expensive bolt actions the Echols Legend is way down there in price.

This is really very simple stuff

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
If you don't care about the tools, why waste any time here?

Terry

You missed the point. The insinuation that I got from SDH's post is that his hunt was better because he did it with an expensive (more expensive than a Legend!) custom rifle. Look at his very first sentence. It smacks of one-upmanship and "look at my expensive rifle".

I don't envy him, Allen Day, or anyone else who can afford a super nice custom. To do so is unseemingly and ungentlemanly. But so is bragging about how "expensive" the gun is, and how much more "pleasurable" the hunt was because of it.

Maybe that's not what SDH meant, but that is how I saw it.

Good post Mike378. You stated it about as simply as it can be said.

The value of that rifle has nothing to do with what it cost. That fact that I hunt with an expensive rifle, one that I built, is important because many of the AR bunch would call it a "Safe Queen" if I didn't hunt with it, bad mouth it, or me, for it's expense and, to make the point that Legends really aren't that expensive, in the greater scheme of things.

Anyone can afford a custom rifle if that is what they truly desire. It was a great burden for me to aquire that rifle, three years of part-time work.

Ten years later, that rifle is worth sooo much more than money because I have such wonderful hunting memories that go along with it.
Like I said, some will never know...and I hope some of you will take these posts as something to look forward to, something of value greater than money.
SDH

HP, I did miss the gest of your post, but gnmkr makes an excellent point in his last post. These people that post and show pictures of these rifles arn't trying put anyone down. They're are very proud of what they have aquired and feel the expence was worth the sacrifice. I'm the same way. I don't own anything nearly as nice as most of the stuff I see here, but I worked very hard to get it. Last year I hunted with a custom Winchester M70 in .300H&H built by a little known gunsmith. The rifle cost less than a third of what one of those legends cost but, to me it's exactly what I wanted. The feeling I got when I put the crosshairs on the animal at 400yds out, pulled the trigger and one my handloads went the distance and put the animal down is undiscribable. The truth be known, I could have gone down to walmart and bought a rifle, box of bullets and scope and done the same thing, but the pride of ownership just wouldn't have been there for me.

I know some very good hunters that don't give a damn about a rifle though. I was talking with one last season and I mentioned something about the new WSM cartridges. His reply was "I heard somebody else talking about those not long ago, That's a magnum right?"

It's all about what's right for you. These people trying to put others down for their choices has me confused.