Do you cut it flush with the metal all the way around or leave a little extra wood at the back where it meets the bolt release? It looks like if you cut it flush it would leave a very fragile piece in-between the two areas.


Thanks,
Terry

ooops, should have been a little (a lot) clearer.

I'm talking about the thumb cut in the action on a milsurp M98 just foward of the bolt release and how it should be finished in relation to the stock.

Sorry for the confusion. I modified the title.

Terry

You don't need to cut it out, leave it in a straight line with the top of the stock, don't make the cutout. I have done it both ways; you need to be careful when doing the work, but when finished, it is kind of protected form any damage.

Terry,
If you do cut it out, it can leave a very fragile piece just foward of the bolt stop as you suggested. I have also had them break on me.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
You don't need to cut it out, leave it in a straight line with the top of the stock, don't make the cutout. I have done it both ways; you need to be careful when doing the work, but when finished, it is kind of protected form any damage.

Yes....I like what Jim hass said....further if in the future you wish to put a post war FN action or Zastava action in that stock the thumb cut isn't there.....

I disagree.
It looks tacky to me to not have the thumb cut in the stock.

What you can do if you feel up to it, is where that little sliver of wood will be, leave enough meat outward of the stock and make it flush with the face of the bolt release.

Sort of difficult to explain, but look at a few custom guns where there has been some styling of the wood around the bolt release and you will see what I mean.

-Spencer

quote:

I disagree.
It looks tacky to me to not have the thumb cut in the stock.

Here's a VZ-24 without the cut and a 1909 Argentine with it
Be your own judge.

the last mauser I did, I did with a thumb cut and it was my last one, the next will be straight.

I think it is a matter of personal preference. I have ssen some very nicely done stocks that did not have the cutout. But, I personally think they are best reserved for commercail mausers that don't hav ethe thumbcut. To me a military mauser without the thumbcut relief looks incomplete. As I said, personal preference. I've become so used to that thumbcut that even commercial mausers look wrong to me, lol.

Take a look at the one in this months Sports Afield.

OK, here is an even different approach attributed to the late Dale Goens.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun...le/277919_goens7.jsp
The entile LH side is cut in much the same manner as the RH.

That sure is not my cup of tea.....

Thanks Vap, I have been over on Hunt101 registering so I could do that. Heres the other side and I agree not my cup either.

First let me say that I’m not trying to start a war but many go ballistic when I brought this up in the past (you would think I would learn).

The so called thumb cut in the left receiver wall of a Mauser (Oberndorf Mauser) has nothing to do with the rifle being a military or a commercial Mauser. The cutout is Mauser’s patented gas escape route in-line with the two milled slots in the side of the bolt that line up with the left rail for escaping gas during a ruptured case or primer. Of the 120,000 or so commercial Mausers I would be surprised to learn that even 1% of them have a solid left wall. Even the small Kurz Mausers have this.

Of further interest the loading directions published by Mauser in both German and English with drawings show pushing the clip of ammo in with the end of your thumb.

For this reason I would not cover the cutout with wood.

MP

Thaine,

While I agree that that is a nice treatment of the left side, it still results in the same fragile piece right in front of the bolt stop/release.

z1r, thanks, but I am not sure I think it is nice. I was surfing Cabelas' Library and looked at the gun linked and realized how drastic it was in comparison to the discussion over the half moon/no cut issue. You are very correct concerning the fagile piece sticking up.

I find Michael Petrov's comments interesting. That adds a whole new valid argument to the reason for cutting out the wood.

Michael,

Thanks for that info, what really baffles me about it is that it would be letting the gas escape into the left side of your face (probably better that straight back into your eye) . However for the 12% of us that shoot off the port side, it just blows out into the wind Learn something new everyday, now if I could just remember it!

Wonder why they call it a “thumb cut-out“ instead of a gas cut-out??????

quote:

Originally posted by Thaine:
Michael,

Thanks for that info, what really baffles me about it is that it would be letting the gas escape into the left side of your face (probably better that straight back into your eye) . However for the 12% of us that shoot off the port side, it just blows out into the wind Learn something new everyday, now if I could just remember it!

I’m assuming you meant ejection “port†side...which to us Marines and sailors is the starboard side! You gotta watch that or they‘ll toss you out of one of those little round windows.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Wonder why they call it a “thumb cut-out“ instead of a gas cut-out??????

Because most guys use their left thumb to depress the follower when closing the bolt.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Wonder why they call it a “thumb cut-out“ instead of a gas cut-out??????

Because most guys use their left thumb to depress the follower when closing the bolt.

Well.....actually.....most guys grind the bolt stop off the follower so the bolt can close on an empty magazine without the need for the left thumb assist.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Wonder why they call it a “thumb cut-out“ instead of a gas cut-out??????

Because most guys use their left thumb to depress the follower when closing the bolt.

Well.....actually.....most guys grind the bolt stop off the follower so the bolt can close on an empty magazine without the need for the left thumb assist.

Unless you are closing the bolt over a full mag and don't want one in the chamber.

Just my opinion, but I think it was a thumb cut first and just happened to work as a gas port also. The Swede Mauser has a thumb cut but the vent in the bolt does not line up with the left raceway. Only when Mauser put the large gas vents in the 98 bolt that lined up with this raceway did he put on the large flange on the bolt sleeve to deflect the gas.

The follower stopped the bolt from closing when the mag was empty, instantly telling the soldier it was time to reload. I'm not sure, but I think all military Mausers had this feature.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
I'm not sure, but I think all military Mausers had this feature.

No, they didn't. Some did, some didn't. The K98k did, the vz24 didn't, the swedes did, the yugo's didn't, etc..

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Wonder why they call it a “thumb cut-out“ instead of a gas cut-out??????

Because most guys use their left thumb to depress the follower when closing the bolt.

Well.....actually.....most guys grind the bolt stop off the follower so the bolt can close on an empty magazine without the need for the left thumb assist.

That was asked “tongue-in-cheek!†Guess I should have added a smiley face.

For what it’s worth I think it has always been called a “Thumb-Cutâ€. I think it will always be known as that. When looking into the Model 1901-2 Springfield I noticed that they had a large cut on that side as well which was later redesigned into a small one in the adopted 1903. This may have been another Mauser patent infringement and the reason it was dropped. The patent I posted was the English patent and I don’t have the US patent to hand which might go into a lot more detail. Back to the original question of the thread, I feel this cutout should be left open and not blocked by the stock. The only thing I would like to change is that many folks see the cut-out and equate that to mean that it’s a military action.
Thanks, MP

Terry,
Myself, I don't care for cutting them down, unless you go ahead and trim off the splinter between the cut and the boltstop/ejector block. Some folks like it, so some times I do it. I generally leave it alone

Rick,
You are correct, on an m98, it's a gas disruption cut, as Paul Mauser lost an eye from a gas escape on an earlier style. HOWEVER, the cut could have been anywhere along the left side of the action, but Mauser, being an engineering german, saw that he could improve loading if the cut was made to also allow the left thumb to depress the stripper clips.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Wonder why they call it a “thumb cut-out“ instead of a gas cut-out??????

Because most guys use their left thumb to depress the follower when closing the bolt.

Well.....actually.....most guys grind the bolt stop off the follower so the bolt can close on an empty magazine without the need for the left thumb assist.

Unless you are closing the bolt over a full mag and don't want one in the chamber.

uh......ahhhhhh.....eeeerrrrrr.....but yyyeeeaaaaaaa,,,,,but one can do that on actions that don't have the thumb (gas vent) cut in it.

Personally I've always seen it as a feature that keeps the time honored Mausers out of the bench rest competitions. Much too fine a hunting gun to waste time on a bench punching tiny little groups.

Here is a technique that I like to use.

Mom and all her friends all like Mausers and I asked them what they thought of making the thumb cut in the stock to match the metal and leave the slim piece of wood sticking up and here was their reply.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
I'm not sure, but I think all military Mausers had this feature.

No, they didn't. Some did, some didn't. The K98k did, the vz24 didn't, the swedes did, the yugo's didn't, etc..

If you’ve never been a grunt in combat this might sound silly, but the bolt stop feature on military followers was primarily designed to keep the bolt from sliding forward under the clip slot which would prevent you from being able to load the rifle except with the muzzle elevated.

Also, every Enfield and Springfield training manual I have ever seen teaches using the right hand and thumb to load rounds from a clip...not the left. Using the left hand would be very awkward because the weapon would be difficult to balance with the firing hand on the pistol grip.

Remember, these rifles were designed for an infantryman in combat, not for the target range.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Mom and all her friends all like Mausers and I asked them what they thought of making the thumb cut in the stock to match the metal and leave the slim piece of wood sticking up and here was their reply.

Love it

Terry

quote:

If you’ve never been a grunt in combat this might sound silly, but the bolt stop feature on military followers was primarily designed to keep the bolt from sliding forward under the clip slot which would prevent you from being able to load the rifle except with the muzzle elevated.

Also keeps you from closing the bolt on an empty chamber when you are in a hurry because someone is shooting at you.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

If you’ve never been a grunt in combat this might sound silly, but the bolt stop feature on military followers was primarily designed to keep the bolt from sliding forward under the clip slot which would prevent you from being able to load the rifle except with the muzzle elevated.

Also keeps you from closing the bolt on an empty chamber when you are in a hurry because someone is shooting at you.

Sounds logical to me. Never used a Mauser in combat, I had to settle for an M16. It worked for me!

The original 1903 Springfields had a bolt stop which consisted of a spring loaded plunger that engaged a detent in the bolt to restrict forward movement of the bolt on its own which would have blocked the clip slot. Pushing the bolt forward with the hand overrode the stop. This was later replaced by a shoulder on the follower that performed the same function, but the follower had to be manually pushed down to close the bolt on an empty mag. The same follower was used on the model 1917 US Enfields.

terry, sorry to hijack your thread, but rick mentions a model of 1903 I have never heard of, and I would really like to learn more on these, as this new info means my collection is incomplete!!

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
The original 1903 Springfields had a bolt stop which consisted of a spring loaded plunger that engaged a detent in the bolt to restrict forward movement of the bolt on its own which would have blocked the clip slot. Pushing the bolt forward with the hand overrode the stop. This was later replaced by a shoulder on the follower that performed the same function, but the follower had to be manually pushed down to close the bolt on an empty mag. The same follower was used on the model 1917 US Enfields.

Rick,
help me out here... I am interested in learning how the model you described worked, as I've been collecting and building springfields for nearly 20 years and haven't seen that feature. I must have missed that, and would like to find the range that had those features.
. do you have a reference source for that plunger thingamagiggie that doesn't allow the bolt to go FORWARD, and which models of the 1903 did that?

I can find No reference to a restricting the forward motion of the bolt model. Perhaps you could help us all out with your amazing level of knowledge of these rifles.

I am only aware of the magazine cutoff switch that prevents the bolt from going BACK, when in the OFF position on ALL springfield 1903 model rifles. I just pulled 4 springfields out of the safe to check them. Yep, works just as defined.. the mag cut off stops the REARWARD travel of the bolt, preventing the trooper from loading the gun from the mag.

I haven't seen a single springfield (though you might be able to provide me with a model designation that the US Military used to differentiate them) that, in arsenal trim, didn't use the follower to stop the bolt going forward. I guess I must have missed that model designation.

The models and types that I am aware of, in broad terms
5 different 22 caliber variations (probably more)

1903 (Types S and C depending on stock) either in 30-03 or 30-06
1903A1 - generally NM rifles, but a few released
1903A2 - odd duck here!
1903A3- major cheapening of production (perhaps fit and finish)
1903A3 markI - pedersen device
1903A4 - though they MAY have been marked 1903A3, the scope mounts give it away.
1941 (marine sniper version)


I am totally puzzled by this. Thanks for the info on the model designation, in advance, as I would hate to have missed something like this in my collection

jeffe

quote:

If you’ve never been a grunt in combat this might sound silly, but the bolt stop feature on military followers was primarily designed to keep the bolt from sliding forward under the clip slot which would prevent you from being able to load the rifle except with the muzzle elevated.

I must be missing something here too. I can't think of too many other ways of exposing yourself to the enemy other than just standing up!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


I am totally puzzled by this. Thanks for the info on the model designation, in advance, as I would hate to have missed something like this in my collection

jeffe

jeffe,

If you turn to page 23 in Brophy’s book on the Springfield Rifle you will see the diagram of a early bolt stop that I described.

It was installed in the early models due to a complaint from the examining board (that you can read about in other areas of the book) that noted that the bolt could slide forward on its own and block the clip loading slot.

For someone who loads with stripper clips the way you described in the PM, I have no doubt of how confused you are.

Why don’t you describe your “strangle†method to everyone?