I just spoke with Mark Gurney who is the Engineering Manager for Pine Tree Castings and he gave me this update:

"All the dies are done. Metal samples for each are in-process. The measurements on the bolt castings are complete, and we should be start taking measurements on the receivers within a week or so.

Once I've reviewed the measurements (called a layout), we'll get any necessary changes or corrections, along with any changes directed by your latest prints, done to the dies. We'll make another round of samples, which could be a lower quantity pilot run if any changes or corrections are minimal. We'll need a risk-release to run any appreciable quantities of castings from the molds prior to your granting sample approval.

By early next week I hope to get photographs of all the wax dies and of the metal castings emailed to you, which should be helpful to your customers. If you have any customers that are really getting anxious, you can give them my email address and I will attempt to relieve their concerns. Unfortunately, a program of this magnitude takes time, and especially takes time to be done right.

Thanks for contacting me. Feel free to call or email any time"

Mark Gurney

Engineering Manager

Pine Tree Castings

[ 06-13-2003, 21:17: Message edited by: Dan@Montana Rifle Co ]

I can wait for something to be done correctly the first time. I cannot wait for it to be done twice to get it right! You gents take all the time you need to do mine-- in the end it is the patient man who enjoys the greatest satisfaction. I'm just wondering: Will the tolerances and fit & finish of the Final units be down to the .001" level? Will procedures such as lapping and polishing of the internal parts be required or will these units be "ready to shoot" right out of the box?

Dan....what does this mean to someone with sort-action numbers in the low-50's?

Looks like my gunsmith will have to wait another month or so.

Actually guys, I know it is hard to wait, but you really should not have expected anything else other than a fair wait. There are a zillion things which can (and probably will) go wrong when starting the manufacturing process for a new action. Witness the initial LA, RH M1999, it took a while before that was ready to hit the street. Even the manufacturer (i.e. MRC) won't be able to foresee all the SNAFUs that will be encountered. There is probably a natural tendency to be optimistic, understandably so, but as a customer it is probably prudent not to imagine a delivery date. That way you may be pleasantly surprised, but you probably won't be disappointed. Btw, this is not limited to new actions either, when was the last time you saw a new product (like a new bullet - Noslers's AccuBonds spring to mind) actually hit the street when the "new product advertisement" did?? Usually takes about a year more, sad but often true. So bear with MRC, they are doing their very best, they want these things on the street ASAP, but they can't afford the product not to be right... This is actually one of the many tricky parts in trying to start up production of a new action, there are an incredible amount of things that can go wrong before you have the whole production chain together.

FWIW - mike

[ 06-16-2003, 20:38: Message edited by: mho ]

mho, you stated it perfectly. Unfortunately as much as I would like to give everyone a "set in stone" shipping date, I think it would cause more harm than good. And believe me there is nothing worse than having your customers call up and call you a liar. I will be talking to Mark Gurney on a weekly basis, usually on Friday to get all the new updates. I spoke with him on the phone last Friday and he was more than willing to offer any guidance and any information I needed. As I was speaking with him he said that he doesn't foresee the problems that we had with the long action, but always expects there to be one or two reworks of the molds that have to be done. As I have told many of you, everytime they have to do a rework on the molds you can usually add 3 weeks to the process. Hopefully everything goes right and we'll start seeing the actions coming off the line about mid July.

Guys,

One of the things I learned at the Gunsite pistol course years ago was "you can't miss fast enough".

jim

So, Dan... are these actions going to be spot-on right down to the .001" level re lapping of lugs and bolt raceways, et cetera? I don't want to have to take it to a gunsmith and have him do anything to it because if he didn't sell it to me, you just know his attention is going to be diverted to more "pressing" projects from his regular customers. Maybe I'm being negative or maybe I'm worrying over nothing, but the fewer hands on it between yours and mine, the better.

The finish of the action has been a topic of discussion that is actually pretty easy to answer but can be long winded. The goal at MRC was to offer a good product at a great price, and yet keep the company profitable enough to develop additional models. Cost are kept in line and margins are slim, but the result is a reasonable price.

We currently polish the action above the stock line. The interior of the receiver, except for bolt bore, lug engagement areas, face of the Mauser collar and other critical mating surfaces is "as cast". Don't misinterpret this as being rough. As Jack Belk once said, "It's pretty slick as shipped." And "It got a LOT better by stoning." I can say from personal knowledge that every action going out of here operates very smoothly. Could it be better? Sure, but not everybody would be willing to pay the extra $3-400 or more the extra costs another operation would inflict upon this action. If you are one who would, ring up Mr. Belk or someone like him and for a few hundred more, he'll turn your M1999 into a Swiss watch, outside and inside.

There are many dimensions in the design we consider critical. These are typically held to +/- .001 True Position. There are four datum points in the receiver and four more in the bolt. Datum points establish a common point reference for multiple dimensions in order to eliminate tolerance stacking over the length of the bolt or receiver. Our machining vendors "whine" all the time about the tolerances on our drawings. If they weren't whining, I'd be worried.

I am, as a representative of this company taking all of your suggestions and submitting them to those who make the final decisions. Please know that your suggestions do not go unheard and many of them have been a factor in changes to the actions.

Just received my CC bill for my actions and paid it. I'm more than willing to wait a little for quality.

Someone mentioned the low 50's or the first 50, as being a concern. Are these people getting the same quality action as someone getting something in the 400 or 500s'?

FD

We are ensuring that every action we put out is of the same quality. We do not expect any problems with the actions therefore there shouldn't be any "fixes" needed. Our main goal is to put out the best product for the money we can.

I wasn't (and still aren't) concerned about the quality of the actions; my question was only about when I might expect delivery. I put the serial numbers in as I suspect they will be sent out in batches with those who committed first, ie low sn's, getting their's before those with higher numbers.

I'm certainly content to wait until MRC is happy with the product as I was just trying to put together a schedule for ordering other parts.

I have not had an opportunity to speak with Dan yet, my son has. From listening to what my son said and reading all the posts, I am sure the product will be top shelf. If it takes a little longer it will be worth the wait.

Because I am fundamentally a very impatient person, I started working on shrinking the time line on my .350 Rem. Mag. project. I have called McMillan and arranged to have them put up a black featherweight stock with a Pachmayr decelerator pad and hold it for inletting until my barreled action arrives from PAC-NOR for custom fitting and bedding. I am anticipating having PAC-NOR provide me with a custom contoured barrel (something like a #2 in the shank area and a #1 from the radius to the muzzle). As part of McMillan�s bedding option, they will write a program for their inletting machine based on the actual dimensions of your barreled action. This whole Maryann from McMillan will cost me around $650.00, but the inletting should be right and I am hopeful that I have shaved a little time off the schedule.

Unfortunately, I still don�t believe this project will be completed in time for Idaho elk, and I have already decided to use my .300 Win. mag. /ss Classic/ PAC-NOR/ McMillan rifle in Montana this year. You know, it will be a hell of a lot easier on a guy�s state of mind when Montana Rifleman has these actions available on an over the counter basis. CP.

[ 06-21-2003, 19:09: Message edited by: CP ]

Dan, my suggestion is take as much time as you need to get it right the first time. In the long run it'll will be worth it in the form of good word of mouth. I'm sure everyone here has plenty of other toys to keep them busy for a while.

Besides, you said up front how long it would take and from what I can see so far you're not behind schedule.
Rob


[ 06-21-2003, 21:21: Message edited by: Recoil Rob ]

Thank you Recoil Rob. They and by they I mean Pinetree (Ruger) said that it normally takes about 26 weeks from the start until the product is ready for production. As we started the molds in March we are now in our 17th week, so in reality we are ahead of schedule. We want to make sure the actions are absolutely perfect before we send them out. I expect that they will be out way before the 26th week, but as I have no control this is only a estimate. I realize that previously we have given earlier dates but as I said before when you are working with other companies, you are kind of tied to their schedule. I can guarantee that Pinetree is doing everything they can to make the process as speedy as possible as they have already been paid for the molds and want to start reaping the benefits of production. Right now I'd say that our schedule looks like the short actions and left hand long actions should start (estimate) being shipped at the end of July. Hopefully they are sooner but if you take 26 weeks that Pinetree gave us we'd be looking at about the end of August. So hopefully by looking at these numbers everyones mind will be at ease knowing that it will be soon.

Dan what is the weight of the short and long actions?Thanks

Dan: My earlier reply was tongue-in-cheek with the "instant gremlin" to hope everyone understood. (Some didn't.) Take all the time necessary since my trip to Africa isn't until next year.

The weight of the Long action is about 48 ounces give or take a few ounces as my scale is electronic and only measures in whole weights, the short should be around 44 ounces

prof242, not a problem I understand everyone is getting excited about the actions coming out including me. But I believe that the wait will be well worth it.

I received an m1999 barreled action. The finish looked great, I liked the bolt release, and the barrel seemed to be screwed on straight. That was about it on the positive side. The bolt flopped around worse than a Ruger, and the safety shroud worse yet. There was so much slack and clearance in the dovetail anti-bind lug that it didn't and couldn't possibly control binding. The finish on the bolt itsself was so rough that it grated and chattered and ground as if one had thrown a shovel full of gravel in the magazine. The feed rails looked as though they had been tweaked with a pipe wrench. They did feed, though, as I cycled 4 or 5 live rounds through it. I get the cold sweats thinking about that, as the floppy little push button device that locks and unlocks the shroud didn't lock and it flipped over and dropped the firing pin with the bolt half way back, while cycling the bolt. It would function maybe 8, 10, 15, once 30 times before doing this. It dropped the firing pin every other cycle for a while. When working the bolt smartly it looked to me like it was dropping the firing pin with enough force to fire a live round if you were extracting one from the chamber. I could visualize getting one's hand or face blown off with this. Whether this is a flawed design, poor fitting, whether it may happen every other time or once in a 1000 times I would never ever try to extract alive round from one of these actions. I have lived in SE Alaska 56 yrs. and have seen countless rifles, some of which were sunk in salt water for days, wks and mos. and none ive seen that were revived have been as rough as the Montana, out of the box. w alex

To clarify my previous posting on the M1999 barreled action, and my experience with the safety shroud turning and letting the firing pin dropp while pulling the bolt back, it didn't happen while I was extracting a live round, thank God. i may never know if one would blow up with the bolt half way open, because there will never be anyone with one of those rifles within a hundred yds. of me, ever. W Alex

geez Walex, this is not good. I have three actions on order from montana rifle co. If there is a design flaw that will allow the firing pin to drop, even periodically, I want nothing to do with them. If it is not too much hassel, would you please let us know if MRC fixes the action, and what the fix is.

Dear Montana Rifle Company, if you read this thread, could you please explain what the cause may be to allow premature striker release? And if there are any absolute positive fixes? thank you

Widowmaker My brother in law, who had ordered the action, while I wasout commercial fishing, talked to Montana Rifleman and they said to send the barreled action back and they would refund fully. They would have to prove to me that any fix was for real. Like if I could watch from a bunker while Dan cycled a few thousand live round through the thing. Still though the rest of the bolt assembly is so rough and crude, it's un-acceptable. I seen the documentary on the gunmakers of Dari, on the NW Frontier of Pakistan, and all of the tribal craftsmen could whittle out a smoother bolt with a hacksaw and file than this example. I had occasion to talk to a top custom gunmaker this morning, over the phone and he had two actions that customers had cancelled on, and he said they were so rough that it would more than double the price of them if he did all the work it would take to make a smoothly functioning rifle out of them. He's laid them aside to try to figure out what to do with them. They scared me bad. I think they will have to totally re-do the whole thing, and most likely, unless their pockets are real deep, the rejection rate and product liability if just one of these things go off at the wrong time, will put them under. Bottom line for me, even if they come up with a 200 % fix, and guaranteed it with their life-- I laid my M70 SS Classic along side of the M1999 and the difference is like between a Mercedes-Benz a Hugo. Fit finish and function. I can go to Fred Meyers and get the winnie cheaper, with a tupperware stock, Ready to go. W Alex

So who are we to believe-- walex or Jack "It got ALOT better by stoning" Belk? I've seen Mr Belk and his expertise when it comes to guns referred to many times here. When did you get your action, walex? When did you order it?

root beer-- the barreled action was ordered many months ago went through the routine "a couple more weeks and it will be ready, so many times I lost count. I fell in with all the hype, and after reading Dan's postings and up-dates, i let my mind play tricks on me when I got my hands on it maybe a week n a half ago. I played with it for days, not really wanting to believe what i was seeing, with that shroud twisting around and the fireing pin snapping forward. Several others watched it with me. So if stoning a piece of re-rod rough metal smooth turns a guy on I say more power to him. Still you would have the safety problem.
when I was a kid 50 yrs ago i used my grand dad's old 12 ga. browning auto for a while. It was so worn from long use that every part was worn and sloppy. It would go off at the slightest bump. just loose worn rounded off parts. My dad took it apart and it was obvious that the only prudent thing to do was to never put a loaded round in it.

walex:
well, now i just don't know what to think... i've been waiting for this thing for two months as of this week and now i'm wondering if i should take delivery of it at all. the barrel has been ordered; i can terminate that as it will be two months before that comes. fortunately the stock has not been ordered. i find it hard to believe that a rifle company would turn out an inferior product. the reputation of the outfit rides on the quality of what they deliver to the public and bad news travels much faster than good. we'll have to see what dan says after viewing these posts tomorrow. i hope everything turns out ok because i can't (and won't) pay $2000 for an action from dakota or anybody else, for that matter. i'm left non-plussed...

Root beer when I called MRC about this problem they had me talk to the gunsmith there. He talked about maybe a stronger spring would help. Still, I could grab the safety shroud and wobble it around with my fingers. That being the case would a stronger spring make the little plunger/indexing device line up and engage reliably, 100%? I don't see how. The gunsmith also said that they were trying to use cast parts rather than precisely machined parts, to keep the costs down. Still, they shipped something that was very obviously not right, that malfunctioned on the second or third time the bolt was cycled. Some one who orders a 416 from SE Ak sure as heck ain't huntin bunny rabbits. When this shroud twists around and if you don't notice, it jams very tightly by gouging into the stock behind the tang. Takes a heavy hand to break it loose. They are willing to gamble with a customers life and limb, and I ain't really happy with that. They weren't they least bit surprised when I called about the problem
That really bothers me. Guns are serious business and they should do their R&D on their own dime and time, life and limb. not mine WAlex

WOW walex...........I have one SA barreled action on order and 1 SA by itself......Father son thing.....I can't wait to hear if you got a prototype, and these are an improved version we are waiting for or what????????? Even so its sad to think they would have released anything in the shape you are describing.

At this point I would be willing to wait another 6 months or more for them to get it 100% right. That sounds like a car company releasing a car that stops sometimes!!!!!!!!!!!

Lets see what they say and what some of the others think. JBelks review was the hook for me.

Frank D

Again, I go back to the precept that a rifle company is not going to put out something that is substandard in those certain criteria that concern people who build their own guns. I've never built a gun and have fired an '06 less than 50 times in my entire life, but I know what I want in a gun, or in any fine piece of equipment for that matter. We want fit, finish, quality, smoothness of operation and certainness of functionality. It is beyond me that a small company producing a product for such a discerning consumer group would produce crap. Pine Tree produces receivers for Ruger as well. Is this to say that Rugers are crap? I don't think so-- Ruger enjoys a very good reputation among its customers. walex, maybe you just got a "bad one." It happens in every manufacturing environment, but I would also expect that the actions are function-tested before they walk out the door. It's only 0700 in Montana as I write this, so I expect Dan hasn't come in yet. We'll all have to wait and see what he says. What you want to bet he'll get back to this question like RIGHT NOW??

Wally, only on the internet could a chicken sh-t get away with calling people a blow hard or whatever. I can understand how one could rationize, especially the way this project was hyped on this forum. Every one is expecting their dream rifle, with the ultimate action at 1/4 the price of a Dakota. I Was. It took many days, before I gave up on that idea, and had to admit that the bolt just wasnt going to work and could be potentially dangerous. Is it? It didn't malfunction while I cycled the live ammo. Research and Developement isn't the customers job. I don't make the profit when it sells. I would be pretty darn ignorant to use a gun car tool whatever that i know to be flawed. The premise that they wouldn't sell something that wasn't right is a dangerous one, a rationalization. Most rationalizations are harmless, like our dreams, but we're talking about something that blows up and goes bang here. That's what guns do. Does anyone know their financial situation? how desparate? If they don't make sales, how long can they last if the have to redo all the bolts? Desparate is as desparate does, would better fit this case. Too bad, because from the bottom metal metal to the bolt release and the basic frame it's really good. The bolt and the magazine box is really bad though. The bottom metal is far superior to the Win M70. the trigger is the same. any how wally take a look for yourself before you shoot your mouth off and let your alligator mouth overload your tadpole tail.

Walex, I for one would like to thank you for your descriptions of the action you received. These actions were sold based on "very close tolorances" and a safety design that may be equal to or may even exceed the mauser action in safety issues.

We were told they were a little rough but still very high quality. It was my impression some stoning would smooth them up. If there is a lot of slop in the action, no amount of stoning can fix slop.

I am now very uncomfortable with this situation. The first actions on the market will decide if the company is successful, due to the information available on this and similar forums. MRC knows this, and if they still sent out unsafe actions, something is wrong. Looks like some of us may have bought very expensive paperweights.

thank you for your candor

walex:
Not that it matters to this discussion, but my Mom and Dad were married in Juneau in 1954 and lived at 7th and Calhoun, just north of the governor's mansion just above the big concrete retaining wall. Their apartment was located on the ground floor of Mrs. Herman's house. You may recall that Mrs. Herman was instrumental in gaining statehood for the territory of Alaska. My Dad wants to know when Mrs. Herman died, if indeed she has even passed away yet. My Dad says she was a lawyer and was the kind who you'd think would never die. Something about the clean air and water up there...

PS Wally Get MRC to let you examine the rifle they sent to me. your comment about all the other rifles is twisted and convoluted logic and ignorance. All the other rifles ever made in the world have absolutely nothing what so ever to do with the one in your hand that malfunctions because of faulty parts, assembly or flawed design. It shouldn't have left the factory. Period. Ever hear of quality control? Walex

Hi Walex,

I haven't been following this forum as close as I would like to, I check it out once in awhile. It was my understanding that the short actions were still in production and not shipping for sometime yet. What action do you have? Maybe it was one of the earlier long actions. There was a run of actions: The SN contained the code CO2, which was an early run, CO3 was a later one, and was "slicker". If there were issues I would hope that Dan would resolve them before he ships them.

Interesting thread.

frank d

[ 06-26-2003, 19:14: Message edited by: frank d ]

Hey, walex,
My Dad wants to know if Skinner's Gun Shop is still in business.

Root Beer, I grew up in Haines, north of Juneau. Mildred Herman was a fantastic lady, a really great person and did a tremendous amount of good for Alaska and especially people in need of help. She was a friend of my mothers, and a dear neighbor, Mary, Mrs. Al Lubke. I believe that she passed away, but I don't know the details. I could find out.