Walex,
My Dad recognizes the name Lubke, but doesn't have any familiarity beyond that. My mother was the gadfly in that area in those days; she may know your mom.

walex,
My dad worked for the Alaska Road Commission (ARC) from June thru December '52 out of Haines up at Seltat Creek, Haines Highway Mile 49, in BC. Do you recall Moose Horn Cafe owner John Fox? Is the Moose Horn still there? All you old timers from the good old days would know that the cafe was more famous than John. Those were the days...

Rootbeer Art Skinners shop went out of business about 1989 or so. There's a sub-station and taco shop and a tourist/curio store there now where the hardware & sporting goods and skinners was. I miss Art and his store. Nothing but boatload after boatload of pilgrims there now on S Franklin St. instead of the miners fishermen and loggers hitting the saloons and cathouses. As an old Native buddy used to say, "things were just with us and the Pilgrims, then Old Squanto just had to go and feed them and now they just keep coming back. Walex

Rootbeer - John and Fran Fox's MooseHorn Cafe was our hangout, just across from the high school. John left the Road Commision and started a very sucessful flying service. About 20 some yrs ago He went down in Chilkat Inlet and disappeared, alone. No distress call. maybe Heart attack? My dad was Ed Alex. Alex Construction. Selth-taht Hin. I've forgot what it means. Seltat water. kle-hini=fastwater nada-hin=smoky water. The Chilkat pass is awsome country. Walex

Not doubting the veracity of your claim walex,just
a question.Did you contact MRC and send the barreled action back, have they found the problem?Did they tell you what the problem was?Did they
fix it to your satisfaction?

Being a totally unbias and nuetral observer to
this post,I'll offer my help.Dan @ MRC can send
me one of these fine actions and I'll have a
custom rifle built on it.At which time my complete
and unbias report will be forth with coming.

Sounds good to me.

Jeff

walex,
My dad digs it all, man. Been there, seen it, shot it, skinned it, packed it out, ate it, went back for more. You could do that in those days. Good talking to you. I'll be looking for you now and then.

[ 06-26-2003, 19:32: Message edited by: rootbeer ]

walex,

I'm perplexed.

If the bolt is halfway back, that means the bolt handle is up. Lifting the bolt handle on most rifles (again, I don't have a M1999 bolt in my hands) is what pushes the striker back. If the bolt is pulled halfway back, the striker should be held rearward by the cam that pushed it back, not the sear.

Is there a whole lot of slop or a big chunk missing in the area where the bolt's cam pushes the striker back? I'm just curious whether maybe everything is loose in that area by design or whether you got a casting that didn't fill out all the way.

H. C.

Hi Walex,

I thought I would post this here again in the event you might have missed it.....I am not being a PIA, I am just curious.....

I haven't been following this forum as close as I would like to, I check it out once in awhile. It was my understanding that the short actions were still in production and not shipping for sometime yet. What action do you have? Maybe it was one of the earlier long actions. There was a run of actions: The SN contained the code CO2, which was an early run, CO3 was a later one, and was "slicker". If there were issues I would hope that Dan would resolve them before he ships them.

Interesting thread.

frank d

frank d,
We are ensuring that before any of the short actions or left hand long actions ship out that all issues are taken care of. We do not expect to have any issues as were evident in the first models. If any of you have a earlier C02 model and are having any issues with it please let us know.

Hang on Guys, I think we should give MRC a chance to comment on the problems one of their customers may have had. I assume MRC has been made aware of the problems, and they have had a chance to either respond to the complaints or even offer a solution, before this was made public?? If not, then at least we should wait a while with drawing our conclusions until we have heard from MRC. I think that would only be fair.

Of all the reports about M1999s posted here so far, this is the first one negative through and through. I'm positive MRC would be very interested in examining and/or fixing the offending parts.

- mike

Thanks, Dan. The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten. For as long as some of the posters have been waiting, I'm sure they'd rather wait a little longer and get a quality product than get something that's not up to snuff and be disappointed. I'm hanging in there and won't take any decisions until I actually see mine and work it through a few (dozen.., hundred) cycles. I am going to have you install my barrel, but now want to see and fool with the action beforehand. I have talked about this action at my local gunshop and the owner wants to see one. If it's a bang-on piece, there may be some orders coming. Hell, I'd even let him put it in his showcase for a couple of weeks to drum up some interest. Free advertising!!

[ 06-26-2003, 20:10: Message edited by: rootbeer ]

I really believe that Montana is going to ship a quality product.....Dan just replied to my post and I have to believe that they want their product top shelf......I also feel that someone with the reputation that J Belk has would never have put his name on the nice review he gave the product........

Walex,
Thanks for your input. I have a barreled action on order and am interested in a explanation from Dan or J Belk.

I appreciatie your bringing a problem to light. A good discussion never hurts anything, especially if it may cost some hunter his life.

Missed that part, sorry. Cannot understand why the striker would fall with the action 1/2 way open, I will look further into it and find out what caused this. We will also check the rifle out when it comes back and try to get it to do this. After getting the rifle back I with post our findings

[ 06-26-2003, 23:02: Message edited by: Dan@Montana Rifle Co ]

Dan,

I sent an email with my phone number, please contact me when you have a moment.

Thank you,

JP

Hello everyone. Many of you have personally emailed me regarding recent posts on Accurate Reloading. I've read the posts and would like to thank all those who have posted with concerns about the actions. Before I sit here and try to answer any of the posts I would like to get the opinion from one or two respected individuals who post here. And they would be either Mr. Jack Belk or Mr. Tom Burgess. Once the rifle comes back to me I would like to send it to either party to examine and report back their findings on this message board. I would also like to request at the same time that they give us any recommendations that they feel will make this a better product. We have people working here each and every day that are going over every detail of the action to make it better, but unfortunately sometimes things that may seem minor may get overlooked. We respect the opinions of everyone who posts here and will take every recommendation into account when doing any future modifications or improvements. You can believe me (I hope) when I say that whenever someone recommends anything about our actions or barrels that I am listening and am pushing to correct any short comings.

walex---

I'm very familiar with the Montana (and most all other) turn bolt actions. There is NO danger of a cartridge going off if the shroud turns while the bolt is open. The ramp of the cocking cam prevents it.

Please understand that the ONlY way that can happen is a miscut cocking notch AND a faulty shroud lock.

I've ask Dan to send the action to me for evaluation and a written report.

I'm totally independant and have no stake in the results either way.

Normaly a customer that has a complaint will contact the company before engaging in public hyperbole to future customers. If the maker gives you a hard time or refuses to make it right......THEN you complain about the lack of *service*.

Unless you've examined a lot of the product and can testify the one you received was not up to *those* standards, you have no basis for complaint, but could certainly decide to return it for a refund......which was offered.

I'll help any way I can.

I have called Dan several times and he, and MRC have my complete confidence.

In fact I called and spoke to Connie today, and was treated with great respect. I am getting ready to go "overseas" for the next six months and they agreed to hold my actions for me.

I can't remember dealing with nicer folks.

I could have remained silent No skin off of mine if someone gun blows up in his face. If the gun malfunctions and ruins his hunting trip or jams up tite and allows a bear to re-arrange his body parts. But there are a lot of good people out there, some my close friends . I wouldn't feel good if i didn't say something. The bolt was rough, chattered and grabbed. it fitted the race ways very loose the antibind feature didn't work. I watched the safety shroud flip over 90% and the firing pin slid foward at a pretty good clip, time after time after time. Dan is fullof crap the bolt was soaked in oil as was athe pin. The bolt shroud is simply so loose and sloppy that there is absolutely no way that pin can find its hole or slot reliably and hold the thing from twisting over on its side. The stock at the rear of the tang keeps it somewahat in place until the shroud is far enough back to slip off just back of the tang. and allow the thing to flip off. That's a couple of inches of bolt travel to the rear. The receiver casting is not that bad for finish. The barrel looked great. as did the chambering. The Winchester people should be happy with something half as good. But the bolt assembly, magazine box, and feed rails on the barreled action that THEY SENT ME are absolute junk. J belk and elk hunter can make all the statements they want about me being a bad guy for alerting the public and my friends and the people in the shooting and hunting crowd, most of whom I really like. Good honest business people don't ship out products like this. I LIKE to expose shady operators. I started haveing some second thoughts about these guys when a local Juneau man was told his rifle would be delayed a few more weeks for the umpteenth time and he canceled out. Dan told him there would be a re-stocking fee. HELLO a re-stocking fee for a product that hadn't been delivered, manufactured, assembled or stocked in the firstplace. That's a little far out in la la land for me. The nicer the con man the sweeter the words and music and the more great and wonderous things he'll do for you for nothing ( with your money of course) the closer you better watch him. And you will be a real sob for not handing over your checkbook and for questioning his noble purpose. No, people who would ship out a product like this are not going to get any slack from me. The gun sports people deserve better. Walex

New guy - they got your money they can afford to be nice to you. The nicest guys I ever knew in the fishing industry are still nice guys even though though they are forced to live in Mexico on our millions they took with them. Walex

I'm checking in here now just due to a phone call I received.
I have looked at a few of these actions CM and SS. In general the interior finish is much the same as a Ruger77. If a customer expected more he might be disappointed.
On the actions I inspected the bolt shrouds fit very well. The bolt sleeve lock was at least equal to that on a Win M70. In my view this lock is a secondary lock. This may not be the way it is but it is the way I view it. I think the primary lock should be a notch into which the striker drops when the bolt is lifted. Keep in mind this is the only lock on the Rem 700 or the Sako L61 for instance. The bolt sleeve lock plunger (the offending part in this instance) is a redundancy in normal use. It mostly comes into play when the safety is in the middle position and there is no contact between the striker and the rear of the bolt. By the way, most mausers have no notch and rely entirely on the action of the bolt sleeve lock. I have seen some poorly made commercial mausers in which the bolt sleeve lock did not function correctly with the result described. Never heard of one firing a cartridge held by the extractor under these circumstances but it certainly was a fault!
Of course, unless I see the action in question I can't say for sure but the problem could arise with a bolt sleeve which was a poor match for the receiver. I have seen this occasionally on Winchesters. No point in saying so without sure knowledge though.
From the sounds of things there are no major flaws here. Just a failure to meet a customer's expectations along with a correctable manufacturing oversight. A close examination will tell. Regards, Bill.

Bill Leeper- a rifle That has a bolt malfunction every other cylcle of the bolt. Your statement "a firearm shipped that does not live up to a customers expections" is pretty good. I guess I was a pretty stupid sob to actually be so naieve and really expect the Montana Rifle to actually be used to feed and fire a bullet every time I pulled the bolt back my gosh and I wouldn't have all the fun of twisting the bolt shroud back into position every once in a while. Now, if I can just find my way back through the "looking glass" to where I come from. I think I need to go through all the gunstores in town and pull all the bolts on a few hundred rifles and try to figure out where I've gone wrong. I think I'm getting it though, what imay have been missing all these years with all those dull perfectly functionally rifles. Think of the thrill I could get when a big brownie is coming at 30 mph to take my deer away and I try to chamber another round. Yes and the safety slips around and down un-noticed and jams tightly into the stock as I slam the bolt forward. As I rush forward sheath knife in hand, the thought occurs to me that my perfectionist expections could have caused me to miss out on this ultimate Alaskan hunting adventure. Yes reality at last. Walex

Walex, I must say I happen to agree with Scott, even though I'll refrain from using the same quote he does . You were disappointed with the product you received, fair enough. But now, let the matter rest until we get some input from MRC/Jack Belk and/or other independent sources of information. If MRC goofed up, I have the feeling they will have the guts to say so, and put the your problem right. It will take a bit of time to establish that, and in the meantime, there is little point in flogging a dead horse.
- mike

Scott, --- I accidently posted a reply to you on the Help with original butt plate for early Win..pretty stupid eh. Walex

It is not the policy of MRC to require any re-stocking fees.
Our goal is to please every customer but at some point in time you have to realize that you cannot please everyone. At that point the only recourse we have is to refund the customers money.
On another note, Mr. Belk has graciously agreed to review the subject rifle and give everyone his honest opinion on it here on the Accurate Reloading board. Stay tuned for his review

walex, your posts have certainly given me some concern. I have 3 PH models on order and I do not want them to come in the condition that you describe. I do not doubt that you did receive an action as you described.I also do not feel that it should have made it out of the factory but accidents do happen. I am very confident that you did not get an action that was representative of those being sent. If you did there would be a large number of responses from other folks on here supporting your claim as to poor workmanship etc. YOU are not the only one who has received an action fromt them and yet I hear nothing of a similar thought from other customers. I do believe you got a complete lemon and they are also making it right or refunding your money.

Your sarcastic comments about Jack Belk being a self appointed expert are completely out of line. He devotes a great deal of time here to help solve gun problems that folks have and he is as knowledgeable a gunsmith as I know and I know some of the best. You owe him an apology but somehow I doubt that he will get it. It is easier to sit on your computer and throw out epithets.

I also did see the action that Jack had received. He got it from the casting, unpolished and did the polishing work himself as he requested. It was also one of the early ones that were considered reject because of tolerances and Jack did some testing on it and found the alignment to be very accurate. So your response on the 88 butt plate thread holds no water.

I do not think that your are being dishonest but as to your approach, some of your assessments of your self may be more fitting than you like.

[ 06-27-2003, 20:28: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Dan,

I was trying to get ahold of you to possibly place an order. I think my post got mixed up in something I'm not interested in. Would you like me to send you another email with my phone number?

-John Peyton

John,
Please email me with your phone number again, I checked my email and could not locate it. mtrifle@montanarifleman.com

Thanks
Dan

I get nervous when a deal appears too rosy, so I was actually hoping something like this would come up. My feelings are that if walex has identified a engineering or manufacturing defect, then all of us including Montana Rifle owe him a thank you. I was also pleased with the reaction of Dan, who instead of attacking the guy, has promised to look into the problem and get a third party opinion.
Mr. Belk has help myself and many others on this forum with gunsmithing problems. There is no one I would rather have look into the problem than Jack, and I have no doubt that he will give us his honest opinion.

OldFart,
Thank you. As a representative of MRC and Montana Rifleman it would not be in the best interest of either company or my best interest to attack anyone. We are here on these boards to inform and most of all to learn. If we or someone else finds something that could be better in our actions we want to know about it. I believe that this will in the end make the action better for everyone concerned. Safety is our biggest issue and we are confident that the actions are safe as tests done in HP White have shown. We do not want anyone to feel that our product is unsafe and will immediately correct any deficiency found by you or us.

This M1999 action just might be the first .com firearm ever made. Think about it, the capital for the initial run has been solicited and raised primarilly over the web. Advertising is done over the web. Now even the field testing is being done by Jack and Walex over the web.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan@Montana Rifle Co:
OldFart,
We are here on these boards to inform and most of all to learn. If we or someone else finds something that could be better in our actions we want to know about it. I believe that this will in the end make the action better for everyone concerned. Safety is our biggest issue and we are confident that the actions are safe as tests done in HP White have shown. We do not want anyone to feel that our product is unsafe and will immediately correct any deficiency found by you or us.

---

In the past all these birth pains would go on behind the scenes nowadays we get to watch it all go down in darn near real time. It's kinda wierd

I've been waiting for an affordable, left hand Mauser short action for so long, I hope this is it. I think I'll wait till some of the rifles are completed and we get some reports from the range and field.

Reno

To Dan MRC-- If you don't have arestocking policy then when did you tell this man here in Juneau that he would have to pay a re-stocking fee? You are very slick and cutesy with the snake oil charm here on the computer I see by watching you guys working the suckers with the little numbers post and the little tidbits of info on production and castings notices, stroking the folks getting them "involved in this project" stuff, Well this old hick country boy fisherman has seen many "Ponzi" type schemes where th sheep are led to finance their own shearing, but I'M not impressed. Maybe I would be impressed if you could come up with a new bolt that would function and be at least as consistant in quality and as reliable as an M70 then go down to the shop and give J Belk enough of said snake-oil to grease up the bolt sleeve locking plunger to make it work right. Never heard of J Belk but tell him I Did Call about the problem it was no big suprise to you. You knew what It was. You referred me to your gunsmith and talked at length with him. I don't like to put him on the spot, but what I got from him is that by trying to use cast parts with out the expense of maching and that makes it impossible to attain the tolerances and fit consistantly enough for reliable function. Added to that , the galling inherent with Stainless Steel, especially poorly fit parts, compounds the problem. With a new bolt assembly your action would not be as good as the average M70 or Ruger and your barreled action ready for a gunsmith to do work on, would be more money thean the winchester or Ruger or CZ right off the shelf stocked and ready to mount a scope and fire. So why bother. Meamwhile I'm going fishing for a couple of months. I'll be in and around the waterfront and docks of Ketchikan most of the month of Auagust, and back to the dock here in Juneau in Sept for the winter if any of the smartmouths reading this don't like what I say here in this forum I'm on the 58" purse-seiner Pacific Belle, if you'd like to stop by and chat about it.

Somehow I think you'll be on board by yourself after the first day........

or alone, anyway.

[ 06-28-2003, 06:23: Message edited by: JBelk ]

J Belk That last proves you shoot off your mouth with out knowing what you are talking about If you were to drop by the boat some time you could see for yourself how my 4 man crew likes shipping with me, and and they could tell you how much them selves. But they are most all Thlinget Indians, one Aleut, first class people, honest to a fault. You wouldn't have much in common with them, and they don't have much time for chicken-sh-ts and smartmouths.

Walex where is the action in question right now? Do you still have it?

Walex,

What I can't figure out is how come such a manly guy as yourself is buying a right hand investment cast action when you can get a complete right hand M70 rifle in damn near any caliber you'd want.

Plus it's forged. You know so it'll hold up when all those bears are coming after you.

As we say down here in Cali dude, chill.

Reno

quote:

---

Originally posted by walex:
I'll be in and around the waterfront and docks of Ketchikan most of the month of Auagust, and back to the dock here in Juneau in Sept for the winter if any of the smartmouths reading this don't like what I say here in this forum I'm on the 58" purse-seiner Pacific Belle, if you'd like to stop by and chat about it.[/QB]

---