I bought a Remington about two years ago. Three days before elk season, the extractor failed. Had a Sako type installed.

Today the bolt handle fell off. Not even 200 rounds through it yet. M700 Sendero .300 Win Mag.



Anyone have any experience with Remington customer service folks?? I sent them an email...polite, considering my disappoingment. Maybe they will do the right thing.

thanks

not looking so good

What the
That really does suck!

A buddy had his bolt break last elk season,after he shot his bull. Luckily it did not nned another shot. Remington fixed it no problem but what if he had lost his elk??? Ruger has 1 piece bolts

I don't know why superglue wouldn't work, it looks like that is what they used in the first place.

I'm guessing since you had the Sako extractor installed you're SOL as far as Remington is concerned. If they will do anything, they'll want to replace the bolt.

Luckily, a good gunsmith can re-attach the handle.

The Remington bolt handles are soldered on. This in itself isn't bad, but if the process is not done right you will have a problem like yours. I have seen them TIG welded back on. I have also seen customers have them welded BEFORE they had a chance to fall off. As I understand it sometimes the bolt body isn't heated enough and you get a poor solder joint.

I wish Remington would change their attachement method. This is an unnecessary failure on a very popular action. I have seen two come off when a customer was examining a new rifle in a store. Kind of embarrassing for Remington.

I would suggest that you send the entire rifle back to Remington if you don't have the bolt handle welded
locally by a very COMPETENT welder. Remington will replace your bolt and hopefully re-headspace your barrel.
If you get a replacement bolt locally you will have to have the headspace check and probably spend about $100
to have the barrel set back or rechambered. You will probably pay $150 to $200 for a used Remington bolt if
you can find one.

The handles on Remington bolts are brazed on at very high temperature using a copper alloy brazing material.

In addition to welding, you can also have the handles drilled and tapped for three set screws that will solve this problem, if you are concerned it about. There are several shops that offer that service for a fairly reasonable price if you just send them your bolt.

If you have had your bolt altered in any way Remington is never going to “fix†it for you...so you are probably better off just sending them the rifle, sans bolt, and have them install a new one for you.

Just buy another kind of rifle for hunting.

Give the gun to your gunsmith as a credit and forget about it.

You can also tap and use allen or torx head machine bolts, like #10? There was a smith here who does them with torx, hopefully he will post as I can't remember who it is right now!

People that assume that the process of brazing is at fault in Remington bolt handles don’t understand much about that process.

Last time I checked there were three ways to join metal using heat. 1) welding, 2) brazing, 3) soldering. Those are listed in the order of strength of the finished connection. If you want to add forging, then I guess there are four.

Brazing, done properly, is almost as strong as welding with the added advantage of not using heat high enough to warp the two pieces of metal to be joined. TIG welding has made this a bit less relevant, but that depends a whole lot on what is being joined and who is doing the welding. I’ve personally seen TIG welded joints break due to improper technique on the part of the welder and/or poor preparation of the materials.

Brazed joints are used where strength and pressure proof joints are needed, but high temperatures are not desirable.But Brazing requires a VERY precise fit between the two parts to be joined...and that’s normally where the problems come into play with a brazed joint breaking under normal use.

This is only to point out that the process of brazing, in and of itself, is not something that is inherently weak when it comes to attaching a bolt handle to the bolt body on a rifle. The evidence of this are the hundreds of thousands of brazed on bolt handles that have not fallen off over the last 60 years or so that this process has been used.

As I have pointed out on here numerous times...there is not one single brand of rifle that I have ever heard of that has a record of never having a part break. If someone knows of one please provide us all with the name.

Leonard,

I'm not a Remington bolt handle expert, but I did grow up in my dads welding shop and my dad soldered and welded on everyting from a broken heart to a cracked ass, and so did I. Rems are what they are..........you got two choices, buy something eles or get it fixed, lots of guys can fix it. The pic pretty much tells it all Solder aint a Tig weld.

On a serious hunting rifle..........rems may not be the best choice, as good as they shoot, still may not be the best choice in a hunting rifle and most of us own them or have.

Rick 031
You doubt if there is a brand that has a record of never breaking a part?

I have one for you!

The good old mother of all modern rifles, the Mauser 98, either by DWM or FN!

This is why I prefer bolts that are forged in one piece and Mauser 98-type extractors.

quote:

Originally posted by reindeer:
Rick 031
You doubt if there is a brand that has a record of never breaking a part?

I have one for you!

The good old mother of all modern rifles, the Mauser 98, either by DWM or FN!

You truly believe that no part had ever broken on a Mauser?

It should re silver soldered on. A "good" silver soldered joint will not come apart. It is a simple matter to re-solder it correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by Gringo Cazador:
Leonard,

I'm not a Remington bolt handle expert, but I did grow up in my dads welding shop and my dad soldered and welded on everyting from a broken heart to a cracked ass, and so did I. Rems are what they are..........you got two choices, buy something eles or get it fixed, lots of guys can fix it. The pic pretty much tells it all Solder aint a Tig weld.

On a serious hunting rifle..........rems may not be the best choice, as good as they shoot, still may not be the best choice in a hunting rifle and most of us own them or have.

Billy,

I was defending and commenting on the process of brazing...not the product, and since you grew up in a welding shop I’m sure you know the difference between soldering and brazing.

Remington’s are not the only company that uses brazing on their bolts.

I’ll stick by my contention that a properly brazed joint most times will be as strong, and in some cases stronger, than the metal being joined.

Growing up in a welding shop I’m sure you saw your dad repairing bad welds that other people had done. Because those welds broke, does that mean that welding is bad way to join metal, or that there are some bad welders?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
It should re silver soldered on. A "good" silver soldered joint will not come apart. It is a simple matter to re-solder it correctly.

I’m starting to sound like an Echo...Remington (and post 64 Winchester 70) three piece bolts are BRAZED together, they ARE NOT SOLDERED TOGETHER. There is a huge difference between the two processes when it comes to strength of the joint...but like any type of metal joining process (welding, screwing, bolting, etc) it has to be done correctly if it’s going to hold.

A poorly done TIG weld is going to break sooner or later also...and so will any other poorly done joint no matter what process is used.

It’s pretty obvious from the pictures that the filler metal in the braze job did not fully cover the surface of the joint. Brazing works through capillary action and if the filler material is prevented from flowing due to a poor fit and/or improper heating of the two parts you will get uneven coverage and holding power. You can see in the picture that there is one blob of metal at one point, and nothing on the rest of the joint. That’s just a bad job, not a bad process.

I wish i had a gallon jug full of those bolt handles, btw...

i think there needs to be a "fire brigade"setup to call remington and tell them to tig their bolts, as a last step.. 15 second welding job, and it would "never" come off.

jeffe

Jeffe,

you'd take a bucket full of any kind of bolt handle if it was free.........ya ole cheap skate

And as Rick pointed out from the pic, the joint didnt get coverage.

You would think that something as critical as a bolt handle falling off......even a few would call for a change in process.

Billy,

You would probably have a better chance getting congress to stop giving themselves pay increases than you would in getting Remington to even discuss any of their manufacturing techniques. They consider just about anything beyond their phone number to be a proprietary “secret.â€

Seriously, though...brazing is an extremely strong process that in most cases will meet or exceed the tensile and shearing strength of the metals being joined. The bolt handle joint on a 700 is a lap joint.

For a brazed lap joint to be full strength the length of the joint should be 3 times the thickness of the material. The length of the joint on 700 bolt handles is a little over six times the width of the material. Having a curved surface adds even more strength to a lap joint to resist tearing of the joint after brazing.

Again, I’m not defending Remington and their sometimes shoddy workmanship and/or quality control, I am only pointing out that brazing, when properly done, is not the weak process that many would like you to believe it is.

Done improperly, no process works real well! I’ve seen investment castings that had flaws and broke when stress was applied to them.

Look at the difference in the stocks turned out by jeffe on his home made duplicator, and the stocks turned out by GAG. Same process being used but one is great and the other is crap! Is it the process...or is it the time spent in set up, operation, and an eye for quality and pride in one’s work, that makes the difference?

Can someone explain (briefly) the difference between brazing and soldering? I am referring to high-strength soldering as used in gunsmithing, not electronics.

quote:

Originally posted by Glen71:
Can someone explain (briefly) the difference between brazing and soldering? I am referring to high-strength soldering as used in gunsmithing, not electronics.

Generally, the difference is in the temperatures and the filler material. Technically, both processes are more properly an adhesion process where the metals being joined are not melted like they are in true welding. In both soldering and brazing the filler material makes a metallurgical bond with the parent metals. The main advantage to both processes over welding is that since the materials being joined don’t have to melt to bond with each other, dissimilar metals (with different melting points) can be joined...which is normally not the case in welding. The other main advantage is that since the metals don’t reach the melting point there is far less chance of warping.

Again, generally, soldering takes place at temperatures below 800 degrees F...and Brazing takes place at temperatures above 800 degrees F, but below the melting temperature of the metals being joined...and brazing is much, much stronger than soldering, and approaches the strength of welding in most applications.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
...Seriously, though...brazing is an extremely strong process that in most cases will meet or exceed the tensile and shearing strength of the metals being joined....

so, if I understand you correctly, if I take a piece of steel, cut it in half, and braze it back together, the piece will be at least as strong as it was, if not stronger? E.g., a chain link cut in half and brazed back together - properly - will not be the first link to break in a destructive tensile test? I don't think you mean that, but I don't see any other way to understand your above statement, unless you posit that most brazing is done to join materials with tensile strengths less than brass or bronze. and I doubt that's right either.

please explain?

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by delloro:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
...Seriously, though...brazing is an extremely strong process that in most cases will meet or exceed the tensile and shearing strength of the metals being joined....

so, if I understand you correctly, if I take a piece of steel, cut it in half, and braze it back together, the piece will be at least as strong as it was, if not stronger? E.g., a chain link cut in half and brazed back together - properly - will not be the first link to break in a destructive tensile test? I don't think you mean that, but I don't see any other way to understand your above statement, unless you posit that most brazing is done to join materials with tensile strengths less than brass or bronze. and I doubt that's right either.

please explain?

Thanks

I meant exactly what I said...which was: “that in most cases will meet or exceed the tensile and shearing strength of the metals being joined.â€

If you have trouble believing that go to a knowledgable source, of your choosing, on welding, soldering, and brazing and ask them.

Every welder I have ever been around...and my uncle owned and ran a shop in the San Fernando Valley for about 30 years...takes a look at the job in front of him and makes a decision on what type of joining is appropriate for that particular job.

Obviously, an arc welder would not be a good choice for joining small, thin pieces of sheet metal...and it would also not be a good idea to solder a car frame or a trailer hitch.

As anyone who has ever welded, soldered or brazed can tell you, joint preparation is key to making a strong joint, no matter what joining process is being used.

The problem, IMHO, with the bolt pictured on this thread is one or both of the following: 1) poor joint prep, 2) poor technique in evenly heating the base metals to be joined. The problem is not a result of improper choice in the “method†used to join the two parts together. A TIG weld with poor joint prep, and poor application, will break just as quickly.

Geeeeeeez, excuuuuuuse me. I guess I should have said SILVER BRAZED. You can't even get good silver "solder" to flow at 800. please excuse my ignorance, but all of the Remington handles I have re-attached using silver solder have not come loose.

You’re excused!

Semantics aside...the common definition of Brazing is a process used to join metals through the use of heat and a filler metal whose melting temperature is above 840 degrees F, but below the melting point of the metals being joined.

The common definition of soldering is exactly the same except that it uses filler metal whose melting point is below 840 degrees F.

Silver “solder†that melts above 840 degrees is used for brazing...and that’s all I meant to say or imply.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

The problem, IMHO, with the bolt pictured on this thread is one or both of the following: 1) poor joint prep, 2) poor technique in evenly heating the base metals to be joined. A TIG weld with poor joint prep, and poor application, will break just as quickly.

I think Rick is correct, once again. I suspect that poor joint prep is the major part of the problem, followed by mis-placement of the joint material "tape", and maybe even poor clamping. As I understand it, though of course I probably am wrong, Remington makes these joints by "induction welding". If I understand that process correctly, a piece of metal tape (the solder, braze, or whatever) and flux are put between the two pieces to be joined. The parts are clamped together. Then two electrodes are attached to or put in contact with the pieces they're joining, one on either side of the joint-to-be. Passing a strong electric current through the electrodes ("in" from the power source through one and "out" to "ground" through the other) heats the metal in between sufficiently to melt the solder/braze material. The joint is then cooled, polished, and finish applied to the bolt.

In this case looks to me like sloppy workmanship won out. I've had the same experience, but I just re-brazed the handle back on, and have never had any more trouble with it.

Incidentally, several of my close shooting friends and I have bought a particular brand & model of custom benchrest action that currently sells for about $1,050 apiece, and ALL of us have had the bolt handles fall off our actions in 6 rounds or less. Mine only lasted 3 rounds. And what's more, they charged me both mailing AND $65 to resolder the handle back on! Again, they were induction joined...in that brand with silver solder...but again poorly done.

One last comment....I had a brand new FN Mauser actioned rifle, which I sold to a young fellow locally. He fired ONE shot out of it, and it would not eject the fired case (it did extract it). Checking revealed that when he yanked the bolt back and the base of the case hit the ejector blade, the blade snapped. So, there's at least one Mauser that was not perfect, either.

Jeffe:

If they can't solder 'em on correctly. What makes you think they could weld them on, either?

;-)

From what I have been told, brazing is very adaptable to automated assembly techniques, and that is one of the reasons it is used so much for certain applications in mass produced items.

When you use an automated process, some things are going to slip through the cracks once in awhile. Remington “proofs†those joints, but who is to know if the proofing has stressed a bad joint just enough to make it pop later on?

Without starting a big “who builds the best rifles†argument (which I believe is a ridiculous exercise)...let’s just face the fact that the process of brazing two pieces of metal together has been around, and working quite well, for a very long time, and is used in applications that withstand forces far in excess of anything that could ever be applied to a rifle bolt handle by a human being.

It should also be obvious that hundreds of thousands of brazed on bolt handles have never broken off...and probably never will.

As I stated earlier, if a guy is all that worried about it he can either buy another type of rifle that doesn’t use this process, or he can have his 700 bolt handle screwed on and forget about it.

My apologies to anyone whom I might have offended...but oftentimes words are interpreted quite differently based upon each person’s understanding and background.

I was just taught that welding, brazing and soldering, while similar in function, are completely different procedures, and used for completely different applications.

Welding, to me...means that two pieces of metal are brought to the melting point by some method and fused together along with a filler metal of some sort. Soldering, to me, is a low temperature, low strength process for joining things not to be placed in allot of stress. And brazing, to me, is the somewhat in-between process used for high strength but without the danger of melting or warping the metals to be joined.

Remington and Winchester three piece bolts are brazed together since the base metal is never brought to a temperature high enough to melt the metal, as happens when welding. Whether or not they use a process of induction (electricity) to heat the steel and melt the filler metal I have no idea...but it makes perfect sense that they would in an automated process.

Rick -

I didn't want to get into the details of automated brazing, but you are right...these handles are semi-automatically brazed, by "robots", if my information source is accurate (haven't seen it with my own two eyes).

What I suspect is happening is that during the process where the joint metal tape is "injected" between the bolt body and bolt handle and all three are clamped together, the tape doesn't quite feed right every time. At least on every broken one I have seen, it appears that only enough braze material has been clamped into the joint to fill about 30-35% of the joint.

The part I am still struggling with is why folks get so exercised about fixing something that breaks during use. All mechanical devices break sooner or later, including the very most expensive cars. Hey you guys...ever pay for an ordinary valve job on a Lamborghini Countach? Now there's something that costs really big bucks to start with, doesn't last a hell of a long time, and costs really dearly to fix (about $16,000 US for a valve-job in 1989 dollars).

A custom rifle is a real bargain by comparison. And I think our factory rifles are almost a gift from God considering how well they work, how little modification they require for outstanding reliability, and how much pleasure they bring us.

Hey Jim Kobe, or some of you other gifted smith's, are there aftermarket bolts for these remmy's that are one piece. I have several rifles and all their bolts are one piece, I just wonder if this is such a big deal to make happen.

What do you guys typically do for/with a bolt if it isn't functional or up to your standards for a custom rifle you build?

Just curious--Don

Alberta,

I’m not a professional welder or a metallurgist but from what I have been told and studied, brazing relies on a capillary action of the filler metal (solder, paste, whatever) that flows to fill the joint when heated. It is the fit of the joint that is all important...and your theory would hold true if the tape is being bunched up and preventing the joint from being brought together properly when clamped. Too small or too large a gap between the parts and the joint will be weaker than if it had been fitted properly.

Making a mass produced rifle that sells for under $500.00 or even a $1,000.00 is quite a feat in todays economy anyway you look at it. Remington, Winchester, Savage and Ruger have pretty much gotten it down pat and in my opinion all put out really fine rifles (for the price) that will fill the bill for the vast majority of the shooting public.

Much Ado About Nothing!

Yeh, Rick, bunching the tape would do it. So would constant pressure on the clamps, if the jig wasn't arranged to hold the gap between the parts constant as the filler metal melted.

In the latter case, if the tape didn't cover the surface of the whole gap, when it melted enough pressure could squeeze the two parts together before capillary action had a chance to move the melted "adhesive" or "binder" ("melt") to all parts of the joint. Even capillary action of the best flowing solders requires some minimal amount of gap for flow to occur. That's particularly true if the filler is a eutectic...that is, doesn't soften or harden gradually, but both melts and solidifies completely and instantly when it reaches specific temperatures.

Doesn't matter, though. We are all well off to have the shooting equipment, privileges, and opportunities we now enjoy.

Best wishes to ya, gyrene.

quote:

I’m not a professional welder or a metallurgist but from what I have been told and studied, brazing relies on a capillary action of the filler metal (solder, paste, whatever) that flows to fill the joint when heated. It is the fit of the joint that is all important.

Rick has been quite correct on his explanations in this thread. What happens with brazing is the filler becomes molten, will run, and then solidify. (for someone who claims to not be a professional he is more knowledgeable than many who are!) I do not know how Remington automates their process but looking at Leonards bolt it appears to me the main culprit is the fixturing of the parts. The reason for poor coverage is the gap was too large for the capillary action to bridge at the opposite end. If you have a tight fit between 2 pieces it only takes a drop. Take 2 pieces of glass, put one on top of the other and put a single drop of oil (make it as tiny as you can) on the seam and see how much it covers! Now put your fingernail in there and see how dramatically the coverage decreases. That looks to me like what is going on here, as the braze should just be a trace on the surface and not blobbed like it is.

Anyway, getting back to this bolt- If you have had a Sako extractor put on it, if you send it to Rem they will keep it. I would have it brazed back on and put 2 or 3 bolts into it and not worry anymore. If the truth be told, done properly you don't need the bolts but they will help you trust this gun in the future.

Matt,

“Professional“ just means you get paid for it, doesn’t mean you’re any good at it!

I just sometimes wonder about people who condemn something without taking the time to learn what it is they are condemning...and why.

Rick -

Just thought I'd say I have thought the problem over more and I think your conjecture about the folded material is the most likely scenario.

Why? Well, because to "crash" the two parts together tightly enough that wicking wouldn't occur would require a very nice finish indeed, on both parts being bonded. Of course, that level of finish before brazing is VERY unlikely. 1) Because it would waste time, effort, and money on finishing an area which would later be invisible, and 2) Because a finish that smooth would decrease the mechanical bonding when the braze cooled...
I gotta quit thinking in terms of microns and 50-millionths measurements when dealing with rifles!!

Anyway, enjoyed the discussion. It's always nice to have someone help you think through things.

I think Rick 0311 is generally right in what he is saying.

One thing I would bet on is that if the brazing job was done right on the Rem 700 then neither man or beast could pull that bolt handle off a Rem 700

Mike

mike,

I’m no expert on any of this stuff, but common sense tells me, and real world examples proove, that joints held together by brazing (done properly) are stronger than any human being could ever begin to pull apart.

It would appear that far more Remington bolts are done properly than are done improperly, and I think the actual instances like the picture shown on this thread are certainly the exception considering the number of 700’s in use out there. That isn’t meant to excuse shoddy workmanship that sometimes shows up...but that seems to occur with just about all mass produced firearms at times.

I believe I read somewhere that a certain brand of rifle (not Remington) recently had their some of their actions blowing up for no apparent reason. Personally, given the option, I think I would rather have my bolt handle fall off!