quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Bill, so once again we are back to the simple truths about Remingtons:

They are relatively easy for a gunsmith to make into a accurate rifle.

They are often made poorly enough so that a gunsmith is needed to make them into an accurate rifle.

So is it any wonder gunsmiths like them? Job security comes to mind..... ........DJ

I'm not sure where, in my post, you read that they are often made poorly enough that a gunsmith is required to make them into an accurate rifle. In fact, this same statement could be made about any medium priced factory rifle and be just as valid.
I did say they are relatively easy to use as a platform and this is true. The receiver is simple. The bolt is simple. Because accuracy gunsmiths have been working with them since the introduction of the 722, methodology for getting the best out of a 700 has been well worked out and tested in the arena of competitive benchrest. Even today, 700's are still made into hunter class rifles capable of shooting at or near the 1/4 moa level. It's tough to do this with any other hunting rifle action.
The Remington 700 receiver design works so well in this regard, it is very often copied, at least in principle, by custom action makers building actions for accuracy use.
I've built and shot rifles based on a bunch of factory and custom actions and the 700's are as good as any as far as the basis for an accurate rifle is concerned. No 700 has even come close to equaling those actions which have earned the coveted Leeper POS epithet. Regards, Bill.

Actually Bill, the second statement is from my own experience. I worked in a shop that had a "Remington Special". They would disassemble the rifle blueprint the action, set back the barrel, rechamber, recrown etc.. They had several rifles that went from 1 1/2" rifles to 1/2 to 3/4" rifles after this process. The barrels were pretty good they were just put together poorly. The last few 700's and Model 7's I've owned were in need of this service.
On the other hand another local smith who aquired several Sako 75's built tooling for squaring up an action like he did with 700's. Turns out the Sako's were all dead nuts on and didn't need it.
Also 3 or 4 of the last 700's I've had had rough ejector holes that needed service just to work without jamming.
So in other words that can be made into decent rifles, but the ones I've been around all needed work. 700's that I had 30 years ago didn't have near as many issues..........DJ

well, that last post i did i was pretty tired and getting a bit angry because id spilt powder everywhere.

other than all i can say is, i take it all back?

quote:

Originally posted by Augustis:

quote:

Just weigh the good against the bad, and the good exceeds by a long shot.

I agree the receiver strength has no-doubt protected hand loaders and hunters from injury since the day of conception of the design.

BUT the "good" out-weighs the "bad", really, could you quantify that for me, please????

The down side of the "bad" is countless numbers of people missing limbs blown away from their bodies or worse... a slow lingering death for the unlucky individuals who was unfortunate enough to receive a lethal injury but NOT a humane end to their life.

Think about it for a minute of two before you answer.....

If the decision makers at Remington could have adopted a design change for under 8 cents (1948), 15 cents (1970s), 32 cents (1980s) or $3.00 (1990s) per rifle to protect the system and the public from a malfunction that would result in the rifle firing without the shooter intending it to do so, would that have been a sound investment to the company to protect their customers from severe injury or death, not to mention to "put the company in a more "Secure Position" with respect to product liability"?

Speaking of "Minor Repairs", what would it be worth to you to ensure your rifle will not fire unless you intend for it to do so by pulling the trigger?

Paul the public should have a reasonable expectation that the "Most Popular" bolt action rifle in America WILL NOT, SHOULD NOT fire without intentional trigger contact being made, and the shooter intending it to do so simply because of the rifles popularity, IF for no other reason on earth!

Do you disagree with the proposition with approaching nearly 4.5 million units manufactured and in the field today that IF Remington's decision makers knew of these dangerous propensities they should have done something to correct them OR at the very leased warned the public???


Aug ><>

yeah id agree with you there.

if they could have fixed the problem with $3 a firearm it would have been money well spent.

so its a triger problem? is this fixed by replacing it was a aftermaket trigger? something like a shilen or timney?

or can a gunsmith make it safe


after i read alot of this forum again i read bits ive missed before. i do agree that a rifle should no go off unless you want it to.
are you saying that when u flick the saftey back into a fire postion it will fire itself? and if say u accidentally dropped it or hit the but against a tree that it would also go off?

after rethinking, if a rifle is going to go off without you wanting it to, no matter how good the rest of the action etc is, its worth a pinch of poo if its going do that sort of thing.

quote:

Even in the case of the trigger/safety, the FSR problems I have seen- and I've seen a bunch- have been more a quality control rather than a design issue. Though the existence of the sear connector may be considered by many to be a design flaw, those cases where the rifle did fire on safety release were always related to dimensional problems with the safety cam rather than a malfunction of the sear connector. Quality control.

Bill
We are on the same page for the most part and I understand perfectly well what you are talking about, It is clear (at leased to me) you have a firm grasp on this topic!

What you are referring to is what ultimately led to the XP-100 and 600 series rifle recall in 1978, in that these models along with the M/700 were susceptible to tricking which produced an FSR. The M/700 was never formally recalled for this defect.

From your experience did you conclude that the M/700 was also susceptible to the trick condition because of the same dimensional problems with the sear safety cam resulting in insufficient sear lift with the safety on, which caused the interference between the connector and sear?

Regards, Aug ><>

quote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=173813

Here is a sequel to the ‘New Zealand Herald’ story, one which didn’t make the headlines. (or any other ‘lines’, because it didn’t make for a good story)

A couple of years or so ago I was at a meeting where one of those attending was the chief armourer for NZ Police. Needless to say, he was closely involved with the testing of the force’s 800+ Remington Model 7 rifles. There was not time for me to ask him all the questions about this testing that I would have liked to – that was quite separate from the primary purpose of this meeting - but the essential points of what he told me were:

A small number of the rifles – he could not remember exactly how many, but thought it was less than a dozen – exhibited either persistent or intermittent faults in the trigger/safety catch mechanisms which could have resulted in accidental discharges.

When stripped down for examination, EVERY ONE of the faulty triggers proved to rusty inside, full of dirt, or both.

Although many of the other 800 or so rifles were not as well maintained as he felt they should have been, NO safety problems were found with them.

Augustis is aware of this – I told him about it on another forum some time ago. I also suggested to him that he could probably obtain the full details of the testing done by making a formal application to the NZ Police under the ‘Official Information Act’.

Did you ever do so, Augustis? Or are test results like this the sort of thing you don’t want to know about. (and would prefer other people to not know about, either)

hhhhmmmm.......

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:

so its a triger problem? is this fixed by replacing it was a aftermaket trigger? something like a shilen or timney?

or can a gunsmith make it safe

Paul, remember this, DO NOT place your trust in ANY trigger or safety. No matter what brand or style it is, a trigger is only as safe as the person handling it. If you have a concern about your 700 trigger, take it to a "competent" gunsmith and have him check it out for you. Most likely a good cleaning and adjustment is all that will be required.

quote:

Originally posted by Augustis:
...All I can come up with" is the rife may discharge in the normal operation of the safety or bolt in the field...

Hey Paul, Be careful about getting duped into this line of total ignorance, it can happen on ANY rifle ever made.

quote:

... The down side of the "bad" is countless numbers of people missing limbs blown away from their bodies or worse... a slow lingering death for the unlucky individuals who was unfortunate enough to receive a lethal injury but NOT a humane end to their life.

It has been a real problem wading through all the "countless numbers" of wounded individuals as I go to the mailbox or into town to do some shopping out here in the country. The one thing for sure you can count on, "Anything augy posts is misleading ignorance."

I may hear 10 shots on a normal routine day when the Deer Season "isn't in" and as amazing as it is to believe, the fields and roads just aren't littered with Remington casualties. Must admit, augy is in his normal mode.

quote:

If the decision makers at Remington could have adopted a design change for under 8 cents (1948), 15 cents (1970s), 32 cents (1980s) or $3.00 (1990s) per rifle to protect the system and the public from a malfunction that would result in the rifle firing without the shooter intending it to do so, would that have been a sound investment to the company to protect their customers from severe injury or death, not to mention to "put the company in a more "Secure Position" with respect to product liability"?

Paul, we have a group over here called the Consumer Product Safety Commission(CPSC). They go after ANY and ALL products which may in some small way have a design flaw that can harm someone.

Would you care to guess how many times they have gone after the Remington Trigger Design?

If your guess is NEVER, then you are correct.

And of course there is a "reason" the CPSC has never gone after Remington to make ANY KIND OF DESIGN CHANGE to the Trigger Mechanism, not even during the totally Anit-Firearm moscow bill clinton era.

Now Paul, would you care to guess what that reason is?

Here the correct answer is - There is no Inherent Design Problem with the excellent Remington Trigger Design.

quote:

Paul the public should have a reasonable expectation that the "Most Popular" bolt action rifle in America WILL NOT, SHOULD NOT fire without intentional trigger contact being made, and the shooter intending it to do so simply because of the rifles popularity, IF for no other reason on earth!

Do you disagree with the proposition with approaching nearly 4.5 million units manufactured and in the field today that IF Remington's decision makers knew of these dangerous propensities they should have done something to correct them OR at the very leased warned the public???

Yep, more of the complete misleading and incorrect foolishness!

Paul:
'malm' has nailed it, short and to the point.

Just stick firmly to the 'Seven Basic Rules' which you would have had drilled into you when you went for your arms license, which, from what you have told us, must have been fairly recently. Do this, and then even if you have a rifle with a complete 'dud' of a trigger/safety catch mechanism, NOBODY WILL GET HURT!

quote:

Originally posted by redrover:
Paul:
'malm' has nailed it, short and to the point.

Just stick firmly to the 'Seven Basic Rules' which you would have had drilled into you when you went for your arms license, which, from what you have told us, must have been fairly recently. Do this, and then even if you have a rifle with a complete 'dud' of a trigger/safety catch mechanism, NOBODY WILL GET HURT!

yep i remember them well! the go on about how safties are subject to wear and tear like anything else so you shouldnt even use them. they just said to have it uncocked, well with a bullet in the chamber but a bit of brass showing so you can see that there is one in there, or if you come into close contact with someone they see your not fully loaded and readdy to go.

I am fairly sure that with any rifle, if u had it loaded and u fell over with it that there is a good possiblity it would go off, unless the trigger was 10lbs!

quote:

Paul, we have a group over here called the Consumer Product Safety Commission(CPSC). They go after ANY and ALL products which may in some small way have a design flaw that can harm someone.

Would you care to guess how many times they have gone after the Remington Trigger Design?

If your guess is NEVER, then you are correct.
And of course there is a "reason" the CPSC has never gone after Remington to make ANY KIND OF DESIGN CHANGE to the Trigger Mechanism, not even during the totally Anit-Firearm moscow bill clinton era.

Now Paul, would you care to guess what that reason is?

Here the correct answer is - There is no Inherent Design Problem with the excellent Remington Trigger Design.

Paul, HC would be ABSOLUTLY correct!!!

However, the truth of the matter is...

The CPSC has no authority over firearm or ammunition manufacturers and including the tobacco industry here in the USA. Congress exempted these industries from product regulatory powers in 1967 to 1970 (as it should be), these industries fall under the department of ATF which has no regulatory authority in this area.

If he is involved in the industry he would most likely know this already, but perhaps not?

Instead of taking my word for it this would be easily verifiable for anyone interested in verifying my claim.


Aug ><>

that would explain why they never went after the trigger design :P

Bill
We are on the same page for the most part and I understand perfectly well what you are talking about, It is clear (at leased to me) you have a firm grasp on this topic!

What you are referring to is what ultimately led to the XP-100 and 600 series rifle recall in 1978, in that these models along with the M/700 were susceptible to tricking which produced an FSR. The M/700 was never formally recalled for this defect.

From your experience did you conclude that the M/700 was also susceptible to the trick condition because of the same dimensional problems with the sear safety cam resulting in insufficient sear lift with the safety on, which caused the interference between the connector and sear?

Regards, Aug ><>[/QUOTE]
Yes. In fact Remington did have a trigger replacement program in place for the 700's as well as the 600's. In every case I saw, the problem was exactly the same. The safety did not lift the sear sufficientlyto clear the sear connector. If the trigger was pulled, the sear dropped down onto the safety and the rifle fired when the safety was released. Had the trigger been made without the connector, it would have made no difference whatsoever.
In all fairness, I have seen the same thing happen on M 70's but it was not nearly so prevalent. For some reason, on the model 70 it was never considered to be a design flaw but was a quality control issue. I view the Remington problems the same way. The big difference was that it was an occasional Winchester while it was a bunch of Model 700's during certain periods. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Here is a sequel to the ‘New Zealand Herald’ story, one which didn’t make the headlines. (or any other ‘lines’, because it didn’t make for a good story)

redrover

I find it interesting that in 2 for 2 instances you pop up within only hours each time I post a link to the NZ article...

Are you a NZ Remington distributor - dealer by chance???

Yes I made a couple of attempts to contact the writer of the article or the police after the article broke, I never heard anything back and moved on.

I am also aware that the NZ Remington distributors were preparing to bring a suit against the NZ deer stalkers association for breaking the story abroad that led to the investigation by the Police unless they would retract the story. I understand from my contact that was the case, that the story was later retracted as the course of action because of fear of the financial burden of a lawsuit to this organization.

Is that the article you meant to post that was not news worthy???

I cut this from the link you provided....I would think the police being reduced to only 9mm pistols would be news worthy, but what do I know ;o)

quote:

Two accidental discharges of police Remingtons have been reported in New Zealand in the past two years. Neither was in a tactical situation and no one was injured.

"We are not saying the weapon is faulty. But issues have arisen and we are taking precautions until we get more details," said Mr Matthews.

"If the firearm discharges when you don't want it to, there could be tragic consequences."

"Mr Matthews said that because the withdrawal left general-duty police without rifles, the squad had been placed on a higher level of readiness.

General-duty staff now had only 9mm Glock pistols available.

Aug ><>

Bill
I am not aware of a trigger replacement program for the M/700 for the sear - connector interference issue.

The M/700 product line did have a another program, however for connector breakage at the over travel screw hole some time in the 80s (???)because of brittle connectors and or something to do with broaching the hole in the connector if memory serves me correctly which also resulted in unintentional discharge. Remington opted to replace the effected fire controls in this instance on the M/700 but not publicly for the trick condition as far as I know to date.

Is this what you may possibly be thinking about?

As far as I know there is still "1% of 2 million effected rifles in the field" that are potentially susceptible to tricking, barring the rifles already returned with a customer complaint of accidental discharge... And "as a gesture of goodwill" Remington replaced these fire controls free of charge for the customer to instill renewed confidence in their rifle.



Regards, Aug ><>

Paul. No, I won't klick the red X, and fade away......I was going to reply to your original post regarding the virtues of the model 700 Remington action as the basis for building a custom rifle. I have some mileage on this subject, having had three rifles built using this action, and owning two factory stock Remingtons as I write this. One is an extremely accurate ADL 22-250, the other being a 700 Classic, .17 Rem. that is a fine shooter.
But Hot Bore decided on a completely unwarranted attack on Winchesters, even though your original thread didn't mention them.
To wit: "With that rig, you can totally blow-away any other Factory rifle, especially the rag M70s. You could easily "win" all of the other rifles you want and sell them off as "scrap".


So the thread degenerated into a pissing match, in which Hot Bore found himself inadequate to the task of producing any significant liquid, or having the proper equipment to propel it.

I didn't mean to pirate your thread. Sorry.... Grant.

quote:

Originally posted by Oldmodel70:
Paul. No, I won't klick the red X, and fade away......I was going to reply to your original post regarding the virtues of the model 700 Remington action as the basis for building a custom rifle. I have some mileage on this subject, having had three rifles built using this action, and owning two factory stock Remingtons as I write this. One is an extremely accurate ADL 22-250, the other being a 700 Classic, .17 Rem. that is a fine shooter.
But Hot Bore decided on a completely unwarranted attack on Winchesters, even though your original thread didn't mention them.
To wit: "With that rig, you can totally blow-away any other Factory rifle, especially the rag M70s. You could easily "win" all of the other rifles you want and sell them off as "scrap".


So the thread degenerated into a pissing match, in which Hot Bore found himself inadequate to the task of producing any significant liquid, or having the proper equipment to propel it.

I didn't mean to pirate your thread. Sorry.... Grant.

sorry mr oldmodel70!! i was getting a bit fecked off the other night, if you have some wisdom I would like to hear it.

quote:

Originally posted by malm:
No trigger can withstand an idiot.

Well this idiot has adjusted a few triggers.
The manufactures had adjustments. Otherwise I had a gunsmith do them.

If I went too far the rifles would not cock with the bolt slammed closed.

When readjusted and checked with moderate thumping of the butt on the floor, I have never then had an AD when just taking the safety off.

But then I have never owned a 700.

In Aust. we had a .22RF Sportco/Lithgow/Slazinger/whatever that used to "uncock" whenever the trigger was pulled with the safety on and then pushed off. There was no arguement it was a faulty design.
This all happened without any idiots trying to adjust them.

Savage now advertise owners can adjust THEIR new triggers without a degree in gunsmithing.

And seeing as I don't know what my gunsmiths have done to my triggers I'm like Paul, I don't count on the safety on THOSE rifles either.

Only an idiot would trust a gunsmiths work.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:
... if you have some wisdom I would like to hear it.

Well, that leaves grant out!

Augustis, some of the stuff you post is hilarious – or it would be if it wasn’t so pitiful!

Quote: Are you a NZ Remington distributor - dealer by chance???

You are really scratching when you have to come up with drivel like this to try to discredit people who disagree with you.

No, I am not a Remington distributor or dealer, I am a retired surveyor. I do not, and never have had, any financial or personal interests in any firearms business of any nature. I’ve owned a couple of Remington 700 rifles in the distant past, but don’t own any now – never had any problems with them, but I still didn’t particularly like them.

Quote: I am also aware that the NZ Remington distributors were preparing to bring a suit against the NZ deer stalkers association for breaking the story abroad that led to the investigation by the Police unless they would retract the story.

Then presumably you know the names of both that company and its owner/manager, and you should be able to work out that it isn’t me! Yes, he did threaten to sue the NZDA, but that’s nothing new – he had previously threatened to sue other writers, editors and publishers for saying even mildly uncomplimentary things about his products. (maybe he thinks he is in America!) As far as I am aware, he never carried out any of his threats.

The police had made their decision to call in the Remington rifles for checking well before NZDA re-published in their national newsletter (‘The Bugle’) a spiel from some American publication – a highly emotive piece of writing, condemning the M700 as one of the world’s great death-traps. (you, Augustis, would probably have been proud of it) This issue of The Bugle came out quite some time after the accidental shooting of Gus Barber, fierce arguments about who or what was at fault had already been raging on the internet and in the US news media for weeks, if not months, and the NZ Police were certainly well aware of it. I could ascertain the exact dates with a certain amount of digging, but they wouldn’t prove much, and I have better things to do with my time.

There was little chance of legal action against NZDA by the NZ Remington agent succeeding, but the National Executive of the association decided against risking expending members’ funds on pointless litigation, and published a rather limp, muted, retraction in a later issue of The Bugle.

Quote: Is that the article you meant to post that was not news worthy???

I don’t understand what you are talking about – there is no ‘article I meant to post’.

The ‘NZ Herald’ (an Auckland based newspaper) referred to the article in The Bugle as though it was a prime motivator for the police deciding to call in the Remington rifles, which according to acquaintances I have in the police force was not really the case at all. Newspapers in other cities also published stories about the decision to call in the rifles – I saw some of these, but I cannot remember what reasons were quoted. As far as I can recall, none of them quoted all or even part of the article in The Bugle verbatim – probably never even saw it. I certainly did not intend posting it here. I don’t even have a copy of it now – I chucked it out years ago. In my opinion, most of it was a load of codswallop.

To the best of my knowledge, the results of the testing of the NZ Police rifles were not reported by any of the news media. Not much of a story in the fact that about 99% of the 800+ rifles passed all the safety tests, and that the 1% or so that did not had been seriously neglected or abused.

Quote: I would think the police being reduced to only 9mm pistols would be news worthy, but what do I know ;o)

Not much, I would say!

The police here do NOT routinely carry firearms, and the majority of them prefer it that way. They can be issued with them - usually Glock pistols - when circumstances clearly require it, but that is not very often. Shoot-outs involving the police are so rare that when they do occur, they are front-page news. And then it is most often an Armed Offenders Squad that is involved, not general duties personnel.

I really don’t understand where you are coming from. On one hand you seem to be implying that the NZ public are at risk because the police have these dangerous Remington rifles, and on the other hand, implying that when the rifles were called in for checking, the public were in danger because the police DIDN’T have them available.

What ARE you trying to prove here?

Paul

My advice to you is to purchase a new Remington rifle in the caliber of your choice that contains the NEW Remington SPL fire control.

While using the factory rifle you will then be able to determine IF you like the chambering you decided upon, and ensuring the caliber and case capacity meets your needs and expectations. You can add things like a new stock or any other aftermarket features you indicated in earlier posts to potentially enhance the performance or the ergonomics tailored to your needs.

After you have everything set up the way you want it and/or when the barrel gets tired then send it to a qualified gunsmith to true everything up and mount the tube of your choice. By this time you will have exactly what YOU want and not what others tell you need initially.

The fire control at topic here is OBSOLETE with the 2006 introduction of the SPL, although previous production models will remain in the pipeline until inventory is depleted...

There are a couple distinctive features of the new SPL design that I will describe to you that will ensure that you get one if that is what you decide, without removing the action from the stock.

The two most readily distinctive features are:

The face of the trigger bow is smooth instead of serrated or grooved like previous production models.

Second, place the safety in the ON safe position and pull the trigger. The SPL features a trigger/sear block and so the trigger will no longer move on safe.

If you are unsure of my description email me and I will send you pictures of the unit which is readily distinguishable from the previous production model.

I wish you nothing but the best in the future, have fun with what ever platform you decide meets YOUR needs, the M/700 platform would be a GREAT place to start your project!

Sincerely, Aug ><>

Mr. Leeper, I think your statement that the Remington 700 action is as good as any as the basis for an accurate rifle was true a number of years back, but with the advent of true custom actions that statement is getting less reliable every day. I personally like Stolle actions and shoot them exclusivly in my bench guns, but there are others that are probebly just as good for their designed purpose. Jim Bordens Rimrock is a very highly respected action, Nasika another, but the hot one right now is the Bat, a friend that I occasionally shoot with from Maryland, recently recieved one that was ordered quite a while ago, although I forget just what the lead time was. In the area of 9 or 10 months as best as I do remember. The biggest reason, as far as I am concerned, to go with a custom action is the fact that no matter how much you invest in getting a Remington action to shoot well, it is still a Remington and its value is that of a Remington where a Stolle or any well known action is worth darn near what was put into it. I have shot against Rem. guns and have lost to a few, but I really feel they are loosing their foothold in accuracy shooting. Year to year there are less of them at BR matches.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
Mr. Leeper, I think your statement that the Remington 700 action is as good as any as the basis for an accurate rifle was true a number of years back, but with the advent of true custom actions that statement is getting less reliable every day. I personally like Stolle actions and shoot them exclusivly in my bench guns, but there are others that are probebly just as good for their designed purpose. Jim Bordens Rimrock is a very highly respected action, Nasika another, but the hot one right now is the Bat, a friend that I occasionally shoot with from Maryland, recently recieved one that was ordered quite a while ago, although I forget just what the lead time was. In the area of 9 or 10 months as best as I do remember. The biggest reason, as far as I am concerned, to go with a custom action is the fact that no matter how much you invest in getting a Remington action to shoot well, it is still a Remington and its value is that of a Remington where a Stolle or any well known action is worth darn near what was put into it. I have shot against Rem. guns and have lost to a few, but I really feel they are loosing their foothold in accuracy shooting. Year to year there are less of them at BR matches.

All in all, not a bad run for an action who's original purpose was for hunting. And for not being designed as a target action, the Remington 700 sure has an enviable record among commercially produced actions. Just another testimony to the 700's versitility.

Your absolutly right malm, I am most certainly not putting the Rem. action down. I think they could and should do a better job of machining them, I do not understand how they can be as far off in some of their maching tolerences as they apparently are with the accuracy of modern computer controled machines. I have seen Rem. actions that after the internal barrel threads are single pointed to a proper center, the factory barrel tennon is too small to be reused. As it is I understand, from this thread I believe, that they locktite the barrel threads in the actions from the factory. Pretty poor example of American quality.

Mr.Beyer,
You are right. In the world of short range BR, Remingtons are seldom seen anymore. They are still semi-common in hunter class though. I was really speaking outside competitive BR. Even in BR though, a properly built Remington, whether a sleeved 700, a 40x, or an XP100, can still be competitive. Is it worth as much as a BAT? Of course not. But it can still shoot as well. Not as easily perhaps but it can.
I agree that the time is rapidly approaching when you will see very few Remington based rifles on the line at BR matches. This as much due to the sheer availability of the customs as to any performance advantage. And it's easy. Cough up 1500 dollars for a custom action and you can be fairly certain you won't have to do anything but screw the barrel on and glue it into the stock and you'll have a pretty fair chance of success (not always, of course. I've seen quite a few Stolles, Halls and others that didn't shoot worth a damn!) Use a Remingtonand you'll have to do a bit more than that. As you said, a Remington is still a Remington when it comes time to sell it too. Regards, Bill

Bill, hunter and varmint hunter is just what I shoot, in the score shooting that we do in the north east we have only about ten guys that shoot either of the 6 power classes, leaving me rather unqualified to speculate on the number of Ren. actions shot nation wide. I will disagree with you on a couple of almost irrelavent points though. When you say that you have seen quite a few Stolle, Hall, and other "custom" actions that will not shoot worth a damn, I have seen none where it was the actions fault. I have eight Stolle actions, one Nasika, oh yea my first bench gun, a Rem. solid bottom 40X that was bought new as a .222 and is now a 30BR that shoots quite well, but is shot very seldom as I had that built as a heavy gun and as I say, I no longer shoot. Also, you are a bit off on your prices of any of the actions commonly used in BR. Not a critisism, just for the information. The last Stolle I purchased was just last summer, and with a Jewell 2 oz. trigger and the action polished was between 1300 and 1350 bucks. The action itself can be bought for about 1050 dollors. A lot of guys [including myself] are getting away from glueing actions. Hunter class guns cannot be glued, and I like the idea of being able to take it apart. Havent noticed any accuracy difference either. I am certainly not disagreeing with you at all, I have a Rem. .270 S.S. mountain rifle that I deer hunt with and think that it is great for its intended purpose. Take care and good luck.

well, over here a remington 700sps stainless is worth 1200, to get it trued is 300, thats $1500, a nesika action is worth about $1850-2000 of course i am talking New Zealand Dollar

so, would a nesika action be well worth the extra few hundred dollars in the long run?

at this stage i have no intention to use it as a BR gun, although if i could shoot it really well i might give it a shot, but being new to the whole shooting thing, probably having fired under a 1000 shots, although now i try to do some shooting every weekend (weather permitting!) I am finding that my skills have increased A LOT in the last say 100 or less shots.

with a remington 700 i also get a stock, might be a bit plasticy but better than nothing.

perhaps ill just start with a remington 700 action, get it trued, bed the action etc etc and just use it to gain more experience, i was going to rebarrel it, the guy i deal with is a dealer for shilen barrels, which i hear are good.


then when i get serious about doing some serious paper punching i could spend some money!

Paul, I have no idea how the laws or dollars in N.Z. are but normally here someone in your position find it a better proposition to buy a used custom action gun then a new one that has to be worked over. One outfit that you might contact is Bob White at Shooters corner, he always has a very large selection of just about anything you are looking for, Rem. actions included. He gives his address as www.shootcnr@optonline.net I have really never heard of anyone getting the raw end of a deal with Bob. As I stated he usally has a good selection of anything from custom action guns to reworked Remingtons. Just being nosy, is it hard to import a gun into N.Z.?

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:
...so, would a nesika action be well worth the extra few hundred dollars in the long run?

...probably having fired under a 1000 shots..

Hey Paul, That being the situation, I'd go right back to my original recommendation of just buying any Bull Barrel M700 "V-Series" rifle and get it in 308Win.

The rifle probably won't need anything but the excellent Factory Trigger adjusted.

Shoot it until the barrel is worn out, then have it Blueprinted when you put a new barrel on. Wear out 4-5 more barrels on it and if you are still into tiny groups, then spend the money on one of the Custom Actions.

There is a whole lot of Trigger Time that you need to acquire before you could ever tell the difference.

Best of luck to you.
---

PS augy is full of beans about the CPSC - as usual.

quote:

PS augy is full of beans about the CPSC - as usual.

HC

Then I will challenge you to provide to this forum the burden of proof to substantiate your claim that "Augy is full of beans" and that the CPSC does in FACT have the full authority to order a recall against firearms or ammunition to prove me wrong. Sir, please do so at your earliest convenience.


Aug ><>

Augustis: Are YOU going to answer my specific questions or NOT?
I guess not, because, you can NOT!
I to have read reams and stacks of material from Remington and other sources including the ad nauseum accounts in civil lawsuits!
99% of the civil lawsuits against Remington showed or proved nothing! Many, many lawsuits I read were settled as "nuisance" suits for petty cash (so to speak!).
No findings of fact one way or the other were noted!
I again "invite' you to answer my questions regarding WHEN my EXTENSIVE amount of happy and safe experiences with a SIGNIFICANT number of bolt action Remington Rifles is going to end?
Or, will it end?
Or, why won't it end?
Is it because I keep my Rifles in excellent working order and free from dirt, dust, rust, corrossion and the like?
You finally hit upon something completely by FUCKING ACCIDENT (I am sure!) there Augustis! When you blathered about (but DID NOT let it faze your consciousness apparently!) "INADVERTENT" operation of the TRIGGER - when taking the safety off!
For Christs sake man are you that stupid?
Yes 99.99% of ALL Remington AD's (inadvertent fire control failures - trigger releases!) are the result of human error, in that the HUMAN takes the safety off with his (or her!) finger in, on or near the trigger causing a firing pin fall - some AD's are caused by the HUMAN moving the safety to the fire position while the trigger is in touch with clothing, gloves, gear and the like!
Again human errors.
I just take it you refuse to answer my questions because you can't and I therfore now DEMAND you retract your condemnation and error filled castigations of the fine Remington bolt action arms!
I have indeed in the past owned Remington 725's but have sold them.
Notice how "I" answer YOUR questions Augustis!
None ever malfunctioned by the way!
WHAT truth are you talking about there Augustis?
I am not hurt in any way shape or form by any of the dancing around the issue you have done and are still doing!
I have no loyalty what so ever to any non-human thing!
If a better (SAFER?) product comes along I will indeed use it!
"I" am not that bull headed!
Let me bring you right up to date here Augustis! I just returned home from a 4 day Hunt into the high country of Montana! It was a combination Bear/Moose/Elk Hunt - four Rifles and two bows were along on that trip. Two of the Rifles were Remingtons, one a Browning and the other was a T/C Muzzleloader!
None of the Remingtons missfired or malfunctioned in any way shape of form!
I happened to come across 4 of the 12 other Hunters who were allowed to Hunt Moose during the dates of our Hunt! 3 of the Moose Hunters were using Remington Rifles and the fourth was using a Weatherby!
I did not come across any other Bear Hunters other than myself and my two partners!
Our Rifles saw duty on horses, on ATV's and slung across our backs!
Again none of any brand failed!
I fully intend to use my various Remington Rifles on upcoming Hunts this fall/winter, for Mule Deer, Whitetailed Deer, more Bear Hunting, Elk Hunting, Antelope Hunting, Cougar Hunting, Wolverine Hunting, Bobcat Hunting, Coyote Hunting as well as for other Varmints - and, that will be just for the rest of this year (2,006)!
Nothing you have "presented" gives me any trepidation or worry what so ever!
I will use the utmost of caution in handling my Remingtons - just like I do my Sakos, Winchesters, Kimbers, Rugers, Marlins, Weatherby's etc etc etc!
Please try to answer my questions if you don't mind!
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmint Guy, You really should watch your language. You can disagree without being foul or abusive.

I'm glad that you haven't had any problems with the 100 to 200 Remingtons that you've had but you should realize that even that large a number of rifles is a tiny fraction of however million that they produced. Yours have been fine, others have not................DJ

Second the language statement. If you can not talk civil don't talk at all.

Varmintguy, BTW the proper way to end a normal sentence is with a period (.). Using a exclamation point for every sentence makes your writing look like it came from a religious fanatic.....................DJ

After nearly 60 years of production, it is hard to believe that there is 152 posts worth of new information about the rem 700 series of actions. Even harder to believe is that some can get as emotional as they do about it.

John

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
Just being nosy, is it hard to import a gun into N.Z.?

i have heard of entire shipments of reloading supplies and firearms being held in customs for a month or more. as far as i know there are a few fees but otherwise i think its pretty straight forward with filling out forms and stuff if you import it yourself, otherwise the dealer takes care of everything, and if it isnt in stock in nz at the supplier it can take a few months to get one from over seas.

I was just curious as I sent an extra set of Wilson 6 PPC dies to a gentleman in Australia. They arrived in about 3 weeks after being opened and, I imagine scrutinized, by the Austrailian customs. The inspection is not my concern as much as the time that they took to send them on their way. I sent them by the fastest shipping method that I could and was told it should take 4 to 5 days. Great if it was something that was needed promptly. I still wonder if it was because they were reloading related, or even if they knew what they were.

probably because they were shooting related is my guess. hell maybe they thought it was a bomb!

Guys, any rifle is just a bunch of steel bits bolted together...

Is ANY rifle worth getting so worked up about?

quote:

Originally posted by gasgunner:
After nearly 60 years of production, it is hard to believe that there is 152 posts worth of new information about the rem 700 series of actions. Even harder to believe is that some can get as emotional as they do about it.

John

Yes, and I don't think (on this thread) that we have mentioned to Paul of NZ, about the bolt handles comming off M700's.


My last word on the subject, I'm going to annoy someone else somewhere else.