The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Is FFL needed to engrave on a receiver for 'neighbor'?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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An very good engraver (who typically does not work on firearms) is local to me (same state, same county) and we are discussing the possibility of me personally dropping off a Mauser receiver (mine) to her, for her to refresh the original markings, prior to it becoming the basis for a classic sporter. I would personally pick up the receiver after any such engraving would be completed. Neither of us is in the firearms business, and we both are unsure as to whether she would need an FFL to do this engraving work on my receiver (she does not have an FFL). We'd like to ask those of you who might know, what the case might be? | ||
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If you are present an ffl is not necessary. You just can't leave it. Of coarse you could always sell it and buy it back after the engraving is done. Don | |||
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I can not imagine that a FFL would be needed for such work. | |||
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Perhaps ScrollCutter can tell us, since he is an engraver Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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I don't think you all are correct. An FFL is needed to do any kind or work to a firearm that belongs to somebody besides yourself. An FFL doesn't need to log a firearm in if it is returned to the owner before the end of the business day. Roger Kehr Kehr Engraving Company (360)456-0831 | |||
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There is legal and there is practical. I worry about a bunch of stuff, esp firearm related. IMO, this one ranks right up there with the mattress tag warning....... Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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Depends entirely upon 2 things: A)does the applicable Big Brother agency know about the deal or could they ever find out, and B)are they or could they ever become upset with you or her for any reason, or will their supervisor or an agent someday need a big political boost by making a timely public bust? Like Clint Driftwood asked, "Do you feel lucky?" Good luck, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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The law says that anyone being paid to work on a firearm who keeps it over night needs to be an FFL. It all boils down to: Does your friend like an institutional diet? Does she have a large amount of money to throw away defending herself in court? Does she mind never being able to own firearms, vote, etc. for the rest of her life? Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Contact our moderator Jeffe, I think he might be able to shed some light on the subject. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Well put. Just do it. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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If it makes you feel better sell it to her for a buck and buy it back for a buck fifty when she's done. Or have her do it for free then pay her a nice sum for a cup of coffee. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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.. call your local ATF agent and ask them .. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Unless there is some state exemption too the BATFE rules this statement below is correct . An FFL is needed to do any kind or work to a firearm that belongs to somebody besides yourself. An FFL doesn't need to log a firearm in if it is returned to the owner before the end of the business day. Roger Kehr Kehr Engraving Company (360)456-0831 | |||
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Thanks to everybody for the advice and information. Regards. | |||
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Personally, I'd do it with no worries whatsoever. I would just do a few things to CHA/CMA (like a "CYA", except to cover hers and my own). 1. I would write out a little dated and signed (by me) receipt for her, showing I had "gifted" the gun to her as my personal friend, free of charge. I would do that at the SAME time I gave her the gun. NOT later. She would then be working on her own gun, which is certainly legal. 2. I would definitely not pay her for the work. Somehere down the road, I would likely give her a gift of appropriate value, as my dear friend. It might someday become important that she NOT be seen as "in the gun buying/selling business" in this transaction. If (when?) you someday get the gun back from her, she can either "gift" it back to you, or you can simply buy it back. Easy logic even in court. "I gave her the gun. Then she did some work on it for herself, and a few months (or a year or so later ), whenever, I was over visiting her and saw it again. It looked so attractive I just HAD to have it back. So, she gave it to me (or sold it to me)." Try to disprove that to 12 people's simultaneous satisfaction, Mr. Agent. [I can also see loaning her the gun for her own self-defense, again with an acompanying note indicating that she has your gun with your permission. If she so appreciates the loan of the gun for several months until she brings security arrangements at her home up to sufficient snuff to not feel the need for your gun, she can always return it. If in the meantime she did a little scratching on it, if you have no complaints, how can anyone else?] All of this presumes, of course, that in your state and municipality it is legal to transfer guns privately without having to run them through a dealer's books. (Too bad, Kalifornians). | |||
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AC, you should add this to your list: Obtain a signed release from her of any and all liabilities or obligations of any nature whatsoever, known or unknown, foreseeable or unforseeable, arising out of, resulting from or relating to her knowing and willful agreement to perform this work for you in violation of federal law.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Bullshit. As far as I know it is perfectly legal for me to give her a gun as a present, for her to engrave it for her own pleasure if she wishes, and at some future time for me to get it back if she is willing to part with it. So, then, why would I view it as a violation of federal law, and have her sign a "confession" in advance? | |||
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Do I need an FFL to clean my buddies gun after I borrowed it? | |||
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Well put. As to the exchange back and forth of ownership. I once had a virtually mint Krieghoff Luger which I bought from a used car salesman named Jim Judd for $15. Later I sold it back to Jim for $15. Then I bought it for $15 again. Later he bought it back again the second time for $15. Then I bought it a third time from him for $15. Although we were privately transferring the same gun back and forth between us without the "benefit" of paperwork, there was and is absolutely nothing illegal about that. Unfortunately, the next time I "sold" it, I traded it for a Winchester octagon barreled pump in .22 WRF and never, ever, saw my pristine little Luger again. | |||
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It all depends on just 2 things: how much of a trail you leave and how much they want you. If they want you they WILL get you. If your trail calls you to the wrong person's attention, then I wish you luck. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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+1 And I'll add to the fact that simply transferring the gun between two parties is also not exactly legal either. It's comes down to this If they (the government) suspects the transfer was done to circumvent an FFL, Business license, and retail sales permit. Then yes they are going to be pissed and will try to fine and or charge the two of you. But As long as you can keep your mouth shut about it Who's to know??? And you also need to understand that you can have parts of a gun engraved by non FFL engravers so long as the Part doesn't have a serial number on it. It's a gray area Because if the engraver has no clue what the part is they will just engrave it and be done. No harm no foul. It's the serial numbered frame that gets people in trouble www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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I apparently wrongly assumed that you were familiar with the definitions, and legal consequences, of the words "sham" and "subterfuge." If I was mistaken, you may want to look them up in a good dictionary, and while you are at it, you may want to check the definitions of "conspiracy" and "felony" as well. Not to mention the definition of "satire."  Not to rain on your brilliant parade of legal advice or anything, of course. The simple answer to the man's question is "Yes, an FFL is needed." Not several paragraphs worth of suborning, or at least aiding and abetting, a felony, the punishment of which includes prison time. One may not always agree with the law, but that surely does not change it. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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2nd! Red My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them. -Winston Churchill | |||
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Until the mattress police video tape you removing the tag !.  I'm unfamiliar with other states laws regarding Firearm exchanges between private party's . A close friend and I had ,key word here is " HAD " been exchanging guns for nearly 40 years . I would want to borrow or he would so we would simply swap weapons . As long as it was for the day I was under the impression it was OK and it was according too Local Law . Not over a 24 Hr. period however !. It is then illegal in my state to exchange any weapon with another party without filing a FFL transfer and paying the fees EACH TIME !. I do wish we had sane legislation such as in 1965 !!. | |||
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I said it before, I'll say it again.. CALL YOUR AGENT AND ASK
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1 Like I said, call you agent.. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Be carful about that. The agents don't now it all and this subject has come up many times on an engraving bbs i visit. The agents are not very skilled in areas of engraving and how the law applies. In a letter of clarification written back to one of the engravers it was stated simply that if the gun or serialized part was to be in the possession of someone other than the owner for commercial reasons the firearm was to be entered into the bound book of that persons records and a FFL is required due to the fact that work is being performed as part of that businesses day to day commerce There have being times when that same question has been asked and the BATFE give differing answers??? even they don't know??? www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Actually, you can play the definition game all you want. I am at least as familiar as you with all of those terms. What I also know is that to convict, an agent must convince a prosecutor to prosecute. Prosecutors are as loathe to prosecute frivolous cases as courts are to hear them, what with the more important crimes and crowded dockets today. Not too many persons get elected to higher office based on prosecuting citizens who are helping each other out in situations which 98% of the public would not view as either a crime or a threat to public safety, even these days. The prosecutor must then convince others that the alleged perpetrators are guilty of the alleged "conspiracy", for them to convict either party. That calls for some evidence as to what was in the minds of the ALLEGED conspirators. To prove conspiracy in the absence of physical or testimonial evidence from others, it usually involves establishing a "pattern" or sequence of similar violations. As this person is NOT in the BUSINESS of engraving firearms without a federal license, that is not likely to happen in my opinion. I seriously doubt a case of one neighbor "sharpening up" existing markings on a gun for another neighbor, with no business transaction taking place, no written or testimonial evidence by disinterested third parties, and it not being a useable firearm at all in any sense except a regulatory definition, would fly very far with any prosecutor or jury even if an indictment was obtained. (Except maybe in the "enlightened" New England states.) At worst, I suspect, they might receive a verbal warning if some jerk found out about it and ratted them out to the Feds. As I said, I would do it without hesitation. You can cower in your corner if you wish. Clearly we have different views of the real world. P.S: Doc- In Kalifornia it may be illegal to loan a gun to another for more than 24 hours, but that is NOT true in most of the country today. Maybe when Obama , Nancy, BarbaraB and their ilk get done, it will be, but it is not now illegal, so long as they are both residents of the same state. I can loan a gun to anyone to whom I can sell one. In Oregon that is anyone of legal age who I do not have reason to believe would not be able to meet the requirements listed on a BATFE form 4473. | |||
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That is Correct AC !. In Kommyfornia one has to either know or check local restrictions . As it can even change by County or Municipality . It would be wonderful if EVERY STATE were under a Single Federal Law allowing Non Felons to be in possession of any firearm !. However I then woke up !!!.  Technically the storage of Powder and Primers and Ammo is an interesting situation unto it's self !. We shall preserve that secret too the grave though !.  | |||
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What world do you live in? The ATf doesn't even give consistent interpretations to their own regs. One would be stupid as hell to think "the worst that'll happen is....". Even dumber to anounce to the world their intetions of circumventing the law. | |||
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+1  www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Getting a bit touchy, aren't we?  Instead of construing the plain language of a statute, I now find that I have been cowering in a corner.  At least it is not - and will not be - the corner of a jail cell. AC, with all due respect, yours is the logic of a car thief complaining that "the law" should have left him and his petty crime alone and caught the bank robber instead. Try that logic when you're standing in the dock, awaiting sentencing for grand theft auto. I think you would find that a tougher spot than sitting behind a keyboard pontificating on an internet forum about what you would do "without hesitation." I have heard your kind of logic many times before. It's the kind that is usually delivered in the past tense by "jailhouse lawyers" who just can't believe that the cops arrested them, a grand jury indicted them and twelve citizens somehow found it necessary and convenient to convict them. You can't imagine their disappointment when they learn that their disbelief, and sense of persecution, no matter how sincerely felt, just won't suffice as grounds for overturning their convictions! The bottom line is that, unlike you, I find it impossible to counsel anyone to commit a felony on the basis that he (or she, in this case) has a pretty decent chance of getting away with it. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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In Great Britain, just for interest, there is specifically IN LAW legislation to cover the engraver or the barrel blacker. In so far as it relates to shot guns. That is that if the person has components only, which may be the locks only, or action only, or the barrels only and that a complete shot gun can't be made from the parts then they don't require the equivalent of an FFL. Because historically, and today, there were men who did just one thing. Such as the engraver, or the barrel blacker. And our legislature didn't feel it right that they should have to go to the expense and cost of being registered. But this didn't apply to rifled arms. But in GB if you take any gun to a person and they work on WHILST YOU ARE PRESENT IN PERSON then they don't need any licence. Often I used to take items down to my local garage to weld. Seems that your US legislation is absurd that it reads as if even if you are present that the person doing the work requires an FFL? But surely the key to this is in the phrase "AS A BUSINESS"? This is a one-off favour for a friend not as a business of being a firearms engraver? Just the same as the garage that does a small weld repair is not in the business of being a firearms welder?
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Here's an issue we have yet to touch on. It's not whether or not you could "get away with it" It's actually whether you "SHOULD" try to get away with it. Yes it may be completely innocent but it's my luck (and in my state) you don't want to give them a reason to look at you. A gunsmith trying to open in California is looked at under a very fine magnifying glass. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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It would be in the best interest of ALL PARTY'S to simply have the legislation removed rather than circumvent the law !. What is needed are straight forward simple gun laws using common sense. Yet when attorney's become involved it becomes tainted , as the motivation becomes financial !. Want a good understanding of some of the problems we as a society face ?. Go to the Political Forum look up my post titled " Understanding the Problem " . Several of you may come away with a better understanding of just what's wrong . It's not Party affiliated !!!. | |||
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Sounds like "Don't ask, don't tell..." | |||
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Kinda sorta. It's how bad do they want to bust you. how much will it promote them politically. Street cops do things in the spirit of law Government does things to the letter of the law so long as they get political gain from it. Doc I don't know whether to laugh or cry. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Would any of the advise change if the engraver came to the gun owner's home to do the work? | |||
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Nope.... unless they do it for free. "services performed on firearms for monetary or other compensation is gunsmithing" Gunsmithing requires the possession of an FFL www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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To get a few things straight here... 1. I am not going to do this in the forseeable future. I said I WOULD do it without fear IF I was in that situation. I am not. If I was going to do it, I sure as Heck would not put it on the internet. Too many government toadies out there to run the risk. 2. The "don't ask, don't tell" comment is how the underground economy, which dominates most states, actually works. If you don't believe that, ask yourself how many of your neighbors you believe are paying income tax on 100% of the revenue and/or benefits they receive each year, or collecting 100% of the sales taxes their states want. (I DO pay 100% and a bit more every year, because I can afford to and don't want to waste my time tracking & itemizing deductions, but I know a great many small businessmen and others who do not. It's the way citizens have always told revenue collectors to stuff their laws.) So, "don't ask, don't tell" is how much of the world runs. It is a particularly good policy when dealing with anything that any level of government revels in sticking their collective noses into. 3. Nowhere in the original question do I see any mention of the engraver doing this work and CHARGING or receiving ANYTHING for it. As such, I do not believe it requires an FFL as without an exchange of values received it is not a commercial transaction and in most states (certainly this one) it is still legal to give, loan, or sell a privately powned firearm to another private citizen resident in the same state without any license or paperwork, no reasons required. Dealers can't do that, but private citizens can. 4th. I was stating what I would do if in the given circumstance. If one wishes to construe that as legal advice, that is their decision, not mine. It was not formal legal advice. Now you guys can debate til your ears fall off. I have some useful work to do and will go do so. | |||
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Yep. The debate here is over technicalities and loopholes in big brother's overreaching regulations of a private industry. There is no conspiracy to commit any "crime" in the moral sense of the word. No victims in any of this. Nobody is going to have a gun illegally engraved so that they can go take down a convenience store. I'd just do what you feel comfortable with and keep quiet about it. | |||
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