quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

Yep. The debate here is over technicalities and loopholes in big brother's overreaching regulations of a private industry. There is no conspiracy to commit any "crime" in the moral sense of the word. No victims in any of this. Nobody is going to have a gun illegally engraved so that they can go take down a convenience store. I'd just do what you feel comfortable with and keep quiet about it.

Well actually there is a "crime" and there is a victim. The Government. The Crime? Tax evasion.
You open a business and you become a state tax collector with no salary of course The state expects you to file and pay the sales taxes you collect out of the kindness of your heart. Any newly manufacture part that is sold for the purposes of sporting goods is also subject to a 10% federal excise tax. Firearms and ammunition have separate taxes levied on them.
This is really the only reason Business licenses, resale permits, heath permits, EPA generator numbers, Storm water permit, Fire marshal approval, Air resources board permit, Yada Yada Yada is there for To collect taxes.

And boy you don't ever want to make the government feel like they've been victimized. They'll have your but in a sling.

Yes, but...

If you are going to run a business engraving firearms, (or any business for that matter) then I would say you have a certain legal, moral, and ethical obligation to become properly licensed. This is not the case here. If this local engraver does her work for pay she probably already has a business license and pays taxes on her revenue. If not, and she's a hobbiest who does it for fun and the occasional favor to a friend, then she wouldn't need a license.

There's really not enough information in the original post to determine that. You'll also note that in the original post there wasn't even any mention of money changing hands.

So, for a one-off favor in an unusual case like this, although technically against the regulations, I wouldn't expect anybody to run through all the red tape the feds require to get an FFL. If she decides that there's a market in it and decides to do it regularly, then get the FFL.

Sell it to her, give it to her, stay there while she does it, or give her three chickens for the labor... There are apparently enough loopholes to make a mockery of this regulation anyhow. Keep the ATF out of it and just "git 'er done".

I'm not endorsing any felonies here, like the others I'm just saying what I would do.

There are no felonies involved in the engraving question.

Look at it as if it was a tax question (which the licensing really is). If you wanted to have income but not pay income taxes on it, legally, you would ask an accountant how to do that...or at least I would. He would then tell you what to do, and in what order (and with what paperwork, if any), to achieve your goal.

That is called "working within the law" to achieve a tax-free goal.

The same with the engraving question. To answer it, ask some other questions, such as:

1. Is it possible for the engraver to receive a gun or its registerable part (the action, in this case) without her having an FFL?

Answer, yes it is, if done correctly.

2. How can that be achieved, and what paperwork (if any) is required?

Answer - She can buy it, borrow it, or have it given to her . It is then her property. From one private party to another residing in the same state, in many states no paperwork is required at all on the part of either party.

3. Can she then engrave the gun or registerable part?

Answer - Yes. It is hers, or legally in her possession. She can cut it up with a torch, sell it, give it away, lend it to another, have a rifle built on it, send it to a land-fill, whatever.

4. After she has engraved it, must she keep it forever?

Answer - No. It is her private property, she can dispose of it in pretty much any way she wishes, when she wishes. If it is loaned to her she can return it and end the loan.

5. Can the original owner re-obtain the gun when she decides she no longer wants it?

Answer - Of course, he can receive it as a gift, buy it, or borrow it, so long as he is eligible under the law to own or obtain or possess any gun at all. But he CAN'T force her to turn it over to him if she doesn't want to, unless it is simply on loan at (his) pleasure to her. Otherwise, it IS hers.

6. What can she not do?

Answer - For one thing, She cannot engage in the BUSINESS of engraving firearms without holding an FFL.

7. How can we make it apparent that she is not engaging in business by engraving THIS firearm?

Answer - by several means...giving her a written title to the gun or registerable part, or giving her a document stating that it is loaned to her and so she is legally in possession with full care, custody and control of it...by NOT paying her for any work she may do on it after it is given to her...and by not claiming it is "your" gun after she has engraved it but not yet decided to part with it (unless it is loaned).

8. Is there any risk involved?

Answer - Well, she may decide to keep it forever if it was given or sold to her, in which case the original owner is S.O.o.L.

That is all legal, as I see it, and no FFL is involved anywhere in the process.

It is also quite legal to discuss the process before beginning it, or again while it is going on, and yet again after the work is complete, if only to see no laws ARE violated, just as it is legal to talk numerous times with one's accountant,before during, or after earning non-taxable income.

(BTW, for anyone to whom it matters...it is quite possible to obtain tax-free income, though it takes some time and planning to get substantial amounts. My income is substantial...yet it is structured in such ways that I do not even have to file income tax returns if I don't want to according to what the IRS tells me in writing.

I do file, because then if anyone down the road asks questions about past years I don't have to go dig up all the records...they have them already. Plus I get any "incentives" the government decides to buy the public off with.

As just one example of tax free income, anyone ever hear of tax free government (or "municipal") bonds? There are some which are state income tax free, and some which are both state and federal income tax free such as some State University bonds.

They pay dividends every year, and when tax rates are high or interest rates are low, bring a premium on their face values if and when you sell them. And they are just one way of achieving tax free income; all perfectly legal.)

I mention them because they are another example of working within the law to achieve something desirable.

One needn't cower in fear of the rules if they can figure a way to legally use the rules to achieve their own personal ends.

Well put Alberta Canuck.

Whew!!! I guess I was lucky. I replaced the slot head action screw on my buddies 10-22 with a hex socket head, but he stood right by me while I worked, and didn't charge him.
Lyle