Got to thinking last night after viewing some custom bolt action rifles. Some had the bottom metal modified to hold an extra round or two and I wondered if anyone has built a lighter, trimmer bolt gun by reducing the bottom metal height/capacity to two rounds.
I can envision trimming down the entire bottom metal, not just the magazine allowing a much smaller grip around the receiver.
Yes, easy to do; one guy here on ar has a straight stock that holds one round or something; super slim straight grip; quite homely but only weighs 3 pounds. Something like that. But doing what you want is very easy.
Posts: 17124 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009
take a 1910 or 1936 mexican mauser, 18" soda straw barrel(or 24, it doesn't matter), myrtle wood scant stock with blind mag, throw away the bottom metal, get an alum trigger guard, hollow out the butt of the stock, hollow out the forearm, put a "tater skin" pad on it, use a Dr Optics (sp?) sight, ... butterknife scant bolthandle ..
and it will STILL weigh more than a savage/ruger/remington lightweigh hunter!!!
SO, I've had this P-14 action and other bits laying around for maybe 25 years. At the time I took it in trade, I had the thought that someday I was going to want a 340 Wby. Not so much anymore.
I prefer short light weight deer rifles, and have carried nothing but Contender carbines since 07.
Occasionally I muse about making the Enfield into a 44 mag or 45 Colt. I'm thinking a push feed extractor system and some clever tinkering (including an intermediate bolt stop) would allow two rounds end to end on top of the follower and one in the chamber.
Has anyone seen anything like this? With less than a year to go to retirement, I anticipate finding time to work on this.
Posts: 50 | Location: Central Pennsylvania | Registered: 01 December 2017
Yeah Tom, I agree... that’s going to the extreme. I was envisioning a more scaled down traditional Mauser. Not necessarily cutting weight in that radical fashion, but making it trimmer.
Sure; we can easily do what you envision. NRD; if you really want a 44 mag, the Enfield is not the ideal platform, although it will work. Use a 303 Extractor. But, better is to use a smaller Mauser, or even a Lee Enfield; easy to make them work with pistol mags like a 1911, or for 44 mag, a Desert Eagle mag. Rhineland arms sells kits for them. If you want to use your 1917 Enfield. action, use a Desert Eagle mag, and a P14 extractor.
Posts: 17124 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009
One of my primary goals is to make the gun with a minimal size stock at the balance point so I can wrap as much of my hand as possible around this area. Pistol mags interfere with this, and I don't care for the looks of any gun with a mag sticking out the bottom. Besides, 3 rounds onboard are plenty.
Posts: 50 | Location: Central Pennsylvania | Registered: 01 December 2017
Instead of a 44 mag, do a 500 S&W with that enfield. That way I get to know how it works without doing it myself. I even have a .500 barrel blank for you.
Why not grab an old Rem 600/660 carbine or M7? You could massage the stock to your needs. One of our members built a similar rifle on a M1891 Mauser. I think it held 2 down. He cut the extended mag flush with the stock and soldered it into the bottom metal.
Originally posted by Uncle Grinch: Got to thinking last night after viewing some custom bolt action rifles. Some had the bottom metal modified to hold an extra round or two and I wondered if anyone has built a lighter, trimmer bolt gun by reducing the bottom metal height/capacity to two rounds.
I can envision trimming down the entire bottom metal, not just the magazine allowing a much smaller grip around the receiver.
Posts: 3684 | Location: SC,USA | Registered: 07 March 2002
Um, allow me to reiterate the question just posed by dpcd:
End to end on a mag follower???
How can you feed and extract one round at a time when they're sitting one in front of the other, between the bolt face and the chamber, ON the mag follower? You're basically feeding both at once, and possibly into a third already in the chamber. I can't understand this, sorry.
Posts: 41 | Location: Canada | Registered: 24 June 2020
I was too polite to ask further; if the man wants to place two rounds end to end on the follower, who am I to question that? Gasp is right. My assumption is that he wants to chamber the forward one by pushing the rear one with the bolt. Then push down on the the rear one and close the bolt. That way, you still have one in the mag. Brilliant! Unless you have a CRF extractor, in which case you have a mess.
Posts: 17124 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009
So far, my scheme is pretty easy, and a thumb trigger sounds complicated. Maybe interesting, but just now my mental energy and machining time are devoted to a 357 Max double barrel assembly for my CZ 28 Ga.
Don't need a vanity patent. Fine when the company is paying, but not out of my pocket.
Posts: 50 | Location: Central Pennsylvania | Registered: 01 December 2017
Ok, nothing personal and I didn't mean to offend you or your long thin rifle. I will just say from now on out, that it is not traditional and may not look like a classic design. I won't look at it any more. NRD; Ok, I understand your concept. You are the first to come up with this; I look forward to your prototype. You will need an interruptor to prevent the bolt from dragging the second round back when you open it. Put a notch in the follower. But for just two shots, you could also just stack them up.
Posts: 17124 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009
Hard to get a lighter and finer rifle than the Kimber Mountain series, at 4lb13oz. I can't see how you could build anything lighter without going to extremes. Just Saying bb
Posts: 398 | Location: CANADA | Registered: 06 April 2004
You will need an interrupter to prevent the bolt from dragging the second round back when you open it. Put a notch in the follower.
Now all this discussion has me playing with the action and thinking about this. At first, I thought a rearward bias on the follower spring would suffice, but I think a notch in the follower is better.
I did a quick layout yesterday and found that without the magazine box, two 454 Casull cartridges would fit end to end within the existing action opening. That makes the concept a little more interesting. Maybe next project after the current one is complete.
Posts: 50 | Location: Central Pennsylvania | Registered: 01 December 2017
Originally posted by dpcd: Ok, nothing personal and I didn't mean to offend you or your long thin rifle. I will just say from now on out, that it is not traditional and may not look like a classic design.
OK, no worries.
Posts: 265 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 09 September 2008
I like rifles which balance well and fit nicely into my hand when I'm carrying them at my side. One of the nicest, most comfortable to carry, in this way, that I have is an replica 1873 Officer's Model (like I could afford a real one!). Nice rounded bottom, slim in the mid-section, nice balance. The only way to make a bolt action which feels that good is to make it with a two round blind magazine. It is then possible to make the stock comfortable and, with some effort,even retain reasonably conventional, classic shape through the grip and into the buttstock. I built a rifle along these lines but as a single shot. I used a Sako 579 action and built a stock using a fairly lightweight piece of black walnut. It worked well. Feels good, carries well, and doesn't look too bad. I even put a monte Carlo comb on it. I used a Canjar trigger with a shorter, lightweight shoe so I could move the bottom line of the stock up a little. I used a lightweight aluminum guard. Not a real lightweight because the .260 Rem. barrel isn't real light (.620 at the muzzle). It weighs just under 7 pounds with an old Leupold 2.5 scope. Balance is just ahead of the receiver which I would consider a bit far forward except that it allows me to carry the rifle ahead of the short scope so I can wrap my hand right around it. I'm satisfied enough with the thing that I'll go ahead and checker it when I get a chance. I think the same stock would work just fine with a 2 round mag. I could easily turn close to a pound off the barrel but that would move the balance back too far. I could lose a little weight off the butt by eliminating the Monte Carlo and switching to a flip flop pad. I'll have to see if I can post up a picture. Regards, Bill
Originally posted by Bill Leeper: I like rifles which balance well and fit nicely into my hand when I'm carrying them at my side. One of the nicest, most comfortable to carry, in this way, that I have is an replica 1873 Officer's Model (like I could afford a real one!). Nice rounded bottom, slim in the mid-section, nice balance. The only way to make a bolt action which feels that good is to make it with a two round blind magazine. It is then possible to make the stock comfortable and, with some effort,even retain reasonably conventional, classic shape through the grip and into the buttstock. I built a rifle along these lines but as a single shot. I used a Sako 579 action and built a stock using a fairly lightweight piece of black walnut. It worked well. Feels good, carries well, and doesn't look too bad. I even put a monte Carlo comb on it. I used a Canjar trigger with a shorter, lightweight shoe so I could move the bottom line of the stock up a little. I used a lightweight aluminum guard. Not a real lightweight because the .260 Rem. barrel isn't real light (.620 at the muzzle). It weighs just under 7 pounds with an old Leupold 2.5 scope. Balance is just ahead of the receiver which I would consider a bit far forward except that it allows me to carry the rifle ahead of the short scope so I can wrap my hand right around it. I'm satisfied enough with the thing that I'll go ahead and checker it when I get a chance. I think the same stock would work just fine with a 2 round mag. I could easily turn close to a pound off the barrel but that would move the balance back too far. I could lose a little weight off the butt by eliminating the Monte Carlo and switching to a flip flop pad. I'll have to see if I can post up a picture. Regards, Bill
Please do, Bill. This sounds like an interesting rifle.
Posts: 41 | Location: Canada | Registered: 24 June 2020
The way to take weight out is to go with a large caliber barrel and keep it to 22" or less. Since a large caliber in a light rifle kicks like a mule, you need to use a large caliber pistol-type cartridge, or a black powder cartridge. And yes, avoid laminated stocks, you can use a fiberglass/foam stock or a lighter species of wood. If you use a pistol ctg you don't need a long action, or a strong action for that matter. There were some Husqvarna single shot bolt rifles built that might be the ticket. The Ruger 77/44 or 77/357 might be an off-the-shelf answer, they weigh 5.2lbs in 44 mag with a wood stock.
Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear
Posts: 2928 | Location: Texas | Registered: 07 June 2003
Originally posted by NRDock: Guess I'll have to work on refining the follower spring bias to hold the last cartridge forward.
Also, unless I add a trap door for loading, I need some way to hold the rear cartridge down while closing the bolt.
A 444 with two down would definitely be easier, but what fun is that.
What about a double bolt stop, with the additional one being possibly being a "soft stop", similar to the way most manual gearbox cars lock out reverse gear, and spring-load the "second cartridge advance plunger"? So that it takes a harder pull or a button-press to open the bolt all the way, and if there is a forward round in the magazine, the feeder just slips? That makes refilling the magazine easier.
In operation then, to load a round from the magazine you only pull the bolt back half-way, but to refill the magazine, you open the bolt all the way, push in the cartridges, hold the rear one down with your thumb, close the bolt half-way, hold the front one down and close the bolt on a third round or an empty chamber?
I have, used a G-33/40 action with no bottom metal, but I prefer bottom metal..
A great option is buy a Brno mod 21 and you could probably find the 21 carbine if you looked hard enough..Manlicher Shonaurs are available..
At any rate its and easy enough task..I dislike the overly light rifles as they won't hold still on a running shot or if your out of breath, they bounce all over hell and back, Ive found a 8.5 lb rifle with scope and loaded about perfect to settle down and still eash to carry...When I was younger a std wt pre 64 with a 26 inch barrel did my best off hand and running shots..tooo heavy these days, unless your shooting from a blind with sandbags!
I once had a Colt 22 Magnum, on which the trigger directly released the striker. Tolerances and loose bolt fit made the whole assembly rather unrewarding.
Yes, I am a trigger snob. I have a hard time tolerating anything over three pounds, and nothing that doesn't break cleanly regardless of pull weight. I learned to shoot with a Win 250. the trigger broke cleanly, but at something over 10 Lb.
I hated my last crossbow trigger because it had a long pull even though it was less than 2 Lb.
A light clean breaking thumb trigger would be cool.
Posts: 50 | Location: Central Pennsylvania | Registered: 01 December 2017
I hate bad triggers too. Which is why you won't find a Glock in my safe.
I still think it would be pretty easy to do, although I would then opt for a compound sear mechanism. Still no more complex than the trigger on any modern rifle.
However, I do have a concern with the concept of combining trimness with a thumb trigger in a rifle with any significant recoil. Trimness to me precludes a steeply-sloping semi-or-full pistol grip, and the straighter the hand is, the more crucial the thumb's function is to hanging on to the rifle...
Posts: 468 | Location: South Africa | Registered: 28 April 2020
I even have a .500 barrel blank for you.
