This morning I got an email from a fella who was generous enough to purchase a rifle from me. In the message he included a note from an email he got from the FFL dealer who took delivery of his package.

I received a check and a copy of the FFL in the mail and promptly packaged up the gun and sent it to the dealer.

Now the dealer notifies my client that he did not receive a copy of my FFL and could not transfer the gun because he "cannot verify the origin of the shipment."

What the hell happened to the UPS shipping label that was attached to the package?

Why the hell does this guy seem to think he needs my FFl copy? I don't give out a copy of this to just anyone. Why the hell can't he access the ATF website to see if I am an actual dealer?

There is NO requirement for the shipper to furnish any of this. Why the hell don't these guys just read the regs instead of listening to all the innuendo and falsehoods out there?

Enough.....And I don't care to hear from those guys "who just feel better" if they get a copy of my FFL.

I dunno about the regs but the local ATF is absolutely requiring my local FFL holder and thus, my transfer agent to have a "paper" trail of where the gun came from. This means either a copy of the sending FFL, or a copy of some photo ID such as a driver's license. I didn't agree with it, but it isn't the FFL holders call. Anyone who has interfaced with the ATF knows what this FFL holder is talking about.

BULLSHIT!

I worked for the government for 30+ years and believe me, the agent is only trying to cover his ass. Have him call his headquarter's office and make them show him the regulation requiring it.

quote:

There is NO requirement for the shipper to furnish any of this. Why the hell don't these guys just read the regs instead of listening to all the innuendo and falsehoods out there?

I sold a gun to a person in Vermont and (her) FFL holder refused to send me his FFL paper for me to ship to him until I first sent him mine!!!!!

Absolutely anyone can ship to an FFL holder and one needs the copy of the FFL as proof that the package was sent to the FFL holder.

Seems we have some low level folks making law again.....as far as I know, the shipper has no requirement to furnish an FFL!..only the shippee!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
BULLSHIT!

I worked for the government for 30+ years and believe me, the agent is only trying to cover his ass. Have him call his headquarter's office and make them show him the regulation requiring it.

EXACTLY

And to top that I just talked to an agent in the local ATFE office who verified what I said. "Only the receiver needs to verify they are an ffl dealer". And they can verify the shipper is an ffl if need be by the atf website under "EZ Check"

That's the way it is around here with a few FFL dealers. There is one right down the street from me that would be very convenent to use, but he will not accept a firearm unless it comes from a FFL holder with documentation . I asked him about this one day and his answer was the last time he got a book audit the ATF agent told him to start doing it. He said he didn't think it was right either but this was his livelyhood and he didn't have the cash to fight goverment.

Hell, I moved last year and the post office in the little town I live in will not ship firearms! I've been all through the chain of managment and can't get a thing done about it.

Terry

Gatogordo:
I am not being a wise ass here but if you would ask your dealer a question. In your post you state that the ATF requires this dealer to have a FFL or photo ID. If this dealer sends a gun to S$W or Ruger or Remington, do any of those companies send him a copy of their FFL or a photo ID pic? AGAIN, not trying to start a fight here, but I am curious as to how the ATF would handle that. I was in the gun business for over 20 years and I would bet my bottom dollar that if you asked any firearms manufacturer to send a copy of their FFL to ANY retail dealer, that the company would either hang up thinking it is a crank call, or check to see if it is April Fools Day.
AGAIN, NOT A SLAM AGAINST YOU OR YOUR DEALER, JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT HOW A SITUATION LIKE THIS WOULD BE HANDLED.

I agree with Jim Kobe!

In order to transfer a firearm, the FFL holder must first enter that firearm into his "bound book". The requirements for the bound book besides the obvious of manufacturer, caliber, etc. include the name and address of where the firearm came from. I think it is fairly simple logic that to faithfully fulfill that requirement, the bound book holder would have to have more documentation than a return address on a package. I suppose this is where the local ATF gets the basis for their requirements on "my" FFL holder.

At any rate, he's a businessman, had to completely shut down his business for 3 days while "visiting" with the ATF in Dallas where there was no wrongdoing found other than a few blanks on 4473s not being filled in with "NA". Tell him how easy it is to argue with the ATF.

Bottom line is, I tell all the people I buy from that my FFL holder has to have a copy of their FFL, the sender's FFL, or their driver's license because that is what my FFL holder, in his way of doing business requires. He will send the gun back to the sender if they do not comply with these simple requirements.

the receving FFL holder is full of beans, though I would not be surprised if his local agent told him it was a good idea.

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
Gatogordo:
I am not being a wise ass here but if you would ask your dealer a question. In your post you state that the ATF requires this dealer to have a FFL or photo ID. If this dealer sends a gun to S$W or Ruger or Remington, do any of those companies send him a copy of their FFL or a photo ID pic? AGAIN, not trying to start a fight here, but I am curious as to how the ATF would handle that. I was in the gun business for over 20 years and I would bet my bottom dollar that if you asked any firearms manufacturer to send a copy of their FFL to ANY retail dealer, that the company would either hang up thinking it is a crank call, or check to see if it is April Fools Day.
AGAIN, NOT A SLAM AGAINST YOU OR YOUR DEALER, JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT HOW A SITUATION LIKE THIS WOULD BE HANDLED.

I agree with Jim Kobe!

I'm not going to ask him squat. They are his rules that he follows as a result of what the ATF reps tell him. I don't expect him to tell me how to run my ranch and I'm not telling him how to run his business.

What does sending a gun to a major manufacturer, who obviously has an FFL have to do with receiving gun for sale/transfer from John Doe Anon. in another state? It isn't the SENDER who has to enter the gun into a bound book, it is the receiver. Whether he sends a copy of his FFL to Remington, etc is not my business.

I repeat, he is a private businessman, trying to make a profit and trying to obey the rules and regulations of the ATF as he understands them. I also don't necessarily agree with the local ATF's requirements but he does and that is his right.

I am of the opinion that it is his business and he can run it as he sees fit. Kinda the core principle this country was founded on. Would you like it if he could dictate how you have to run your business?

I have had to jump through extra hoops for dealers on the other end of the deal from time to time, and I just do it. I sure don't want other people to tell me what to do, so I afford others the same courtesey.

PS: If anyone cares to argue the issue, I'm all for you contacting the ATF and obtaining a binding interpretation of the applicable laws and regulations. I'm reporting how it is locally with this one shop.

Ok, I just waded through the ATF regs, 27 CFR 478 subpart H, and it is clear that a RECEIVING FFL has to enter either the sender's name and address or his name and license # (meaning FFL lic. #) with the other new firearm's information. Therefore, I think it is obvious that to exercise ordinary dilegence to fulfill this QUITE CLEAR WRITTEN REQUIREMENT would require some form of identifying the sender's name and address OR HIS LICENSE # other than just his statement or a return address on the box.

Imagine this, you're a gunshop owner and therefore an FFL holder and a guy, unknown to you, comes in with say, a nice Champlin custom with a Zeiss on it, and says, "I'm a little short until payday, here's my gun and I'll take 500 bucks for it." Using the logic expressed above, and absent any state laws which would probably apply, you could just buy it, enter his name and address that he gives you (such as John Doe, 123 Blue St, City, Your State) and he would go merrily on his way.

What's the difference between that scenario and an FFL holder in another state getting a gun for which he has no history, no price, and no record of who sent it?

Everyone knows the first one stinks and no honest dealer would buy that gun, but how is the FFL holder to know what the gun cost he's gotten in a package, and/or who sold it and sent it to him?

Sorry boys, I've thought about this one a bit, AND READ THE REGULATIONS, which some of you apparently have not, and I lean towards the ATFs interpretation.

quote:

Sorry boys, I've thought about this one a bit, AND READ THE REGULATIONS, which some of you apparently have not, and I lean towards the ATFs interpretation.

xxxxxxxxx

Your are obviously reading something into the regs that is not there. I have contacted my local ATFE office and the answer I got inidcates I am correct and you can do just what the hell you wish. You are obviously trying to cover your ass. If the shipping label return address is not sufficient I don't know what is. Boy talk about paranoia.

Well, Jim, I'm not covering anyone's ass, I am a buyer not an FFL holder. But I can tell you this, if you think a return address on package, which is filled in by the sender with no verification, shows specifically who that person is and their true address or that they are an FFL holder and their license # then you need to apply for Kreskin's job. The regulations require a name and address or license #, not a guess.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
That's the way it is around here with a few FFL dealers. There is one right down the street from me that would be very convenent to use, but he will not accept a firearm unless it comes from a FFL holder with documentation . I asked him about this one day and his answer was the last time he got a book audit the ATF agent told him to start doing it. He said he didn't think it was right either but this was his livelyhood and he didn't have the cash to fight goverment.

Hell, I moved last year and the post office in the little town I live in will not ship firearms! I've been all through the chain of managment and can't get a thing done about it.

Terry

You should contact your congressman or senator and have them straighten this out! This is bullshit!

You are correct! I have been an FFL and licensed importer for 23 years and there is NO rule that states that the seller of a firearm is required to supply an FFL to the receiving dealer. The problem is that a lot of the license holders have the IQ of a warm room and run scared at every turn of the road! In reality, the probably should not have a license in the first place!

Here is a cut and paste from the ATF FAQ section:

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]


It makes it pretty clear that their does not need to be a FFL on the senders end.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
This morning I got an email from a fella who was generous enough to purchase a rifle from me. In the message he included a note from an email he got from the FFL dealer who took delivery of his package.

I received a check and a copy of the FFL in the mail and promptly packaged up the gun and sent it to the dealer.

Now the dealer notifies my client that he did not receive a copy of my FFL and could not transfer the gun because he "cannot verify the origin of the shipment."

What the hell happened to the UPS shipping label that was attached to the package?

Why the hell does this guy seem to think he needs my FFl copy? I don't give out a copy of this to just anyone. Why the hell can't he access the ATF website to see if I am an actual dealer?

There is NO requirement for the shipper to furnish any of this. Why the hell don't these guys just read the regs instead of listening to all the innuendo and falsehoods out there?

Enough.....And I don't care to hear from those guys "who just feel better" if they get a copy of my FFL.

This may have already been said, but between the doors buzzer, the ringing phone and the constant swatting of "blue" metal chips flying from the lathe, I didn't read all the replies.

The dealer receiving the gun doesn't need Kobe's FFL, he can log it in as coming from Jim Kobe. If the gun isn't returned to Kobe, then they will need positive ID from whoever they dispose of the gun to. You only need positive ID, or, a copy of the FFL of the party you are disposing the gun to, IF, it is a different party than the one who sent or brought it in.

If a party brings or sends a gun for repairs, I don't ask for positive ID. I log it in as coming from the party and address who sent it. If someone OTHER THAN the sender is to receive the gun, then the transaction will have to be handled like a sell. At which point the new recipient will need to identify themselves either by a 4473 and background check, or, with a current copy of their FFL.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the receving FFL holder is full of beans, though I would not be surprised if his local agent told him it was a good idea.

Jeffe, how do you handle a sell with your FFL? Do you provide the seller with your FFL?

quote:

but he will not accept a firearm unless it comes from a FFL holder with documentation

That's how every dealer around my parts operates for receiving
a firearm for me. It may not be correct but I don't have a lot of choices. I haven't had a any problems getting the sender to send a copy, they all have had the same policy as the guys here.

I have shipped quite a few Mauser actions....all to FFL holders and only once was I asked to first show my FFL.....I refused!!! and the customer had me ship to a different FFL holder!

As a licensed dealer and now a licensed manufacturer for over 25 years, I can assure you that the person sending the firearm is not required to give a copy to the recipient, no more than an ordinary joe blow has to have an FFL to send his firearm to a gunsmith in another state or in his own state.

This reminds me of cops who like to interpret concealed carry laws to suit their own needs at the time of a traffic stop. "You're not supposed to have your pistol loaded". I suppose that is a little more open to interpretation and doesn't come up as often as the idiot not accepting the firearm from Jim though.

What's next.......he's gonna require another unique serial number to be engraved every time it's transferred???

Not what's next, but what happened first. The buyer agreed to the price and I told him to get a copy of the receiving dealer's FFL. He emails me back and says the guy won't give him a copy of his but he wants my FAX number so it can be faxed to me! Saysa he won't give out his FFl to anyone but another dealer!

Now what the hell is with that?

From my understanding, there is a concern over untraceable firearms being sent from an unknown or unverifyable source across state lines to the FFL holder for transfer/sale to a private individual. It is also my understanding that the concern is great enough that many FFL holders throughout the country will no longer receive the firearm from anyone unknown to them w/out going through an FFL holder from the originating state (this may even include requesting documentation) before receiving the firearm. This is America and within their rights to protect themselves as well as their businesses from civil liability and/or federal prosecution.

My source for this information is a LEO firearms expert used in federal prosecutions.

GVA

quote:

there is a concern over untraceable firearms being sent from an unknown or unverifyable source across state lines to the FFL holder for transfer/sale to a private individual.

Big deal.....who cares where it came from.....the very fact that it's being sent to an FFL to do a background check on the new buyer is what is important here!!!!!!Where it came from is totally irrelevant......we do not do background checks on sellers!

More bullshit!!!!!!!!!

This is simply low level govt. employees making law and it's wrong!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
Not what's next, but what happened first. The buyer agreed to the price and I told him to get a copy of the receiving dealer's FFL. He emails me back and says the guy won't give him a copy of his but he wants my FAX number so it can be faxed to me! Saysa he won't give out his FFl to anyone but another dealer!

Now what the hell is with that?

Please tell me you told your customer to find someone else to deal with???

As license holders, we have enough red tape and bs to sort through that is considered legal, let alone to having deal with idiots who don't know the law.
This guy probably doesn't know that his business name and mailing address, including his FFL status can be bought for a couple hundred dollars directly from the BATF for solicitation purposes either......What a winner.

I did tell the customer and he agreed he needed to contact another dealer. The problem right now is the original dealer says he won't transfer it and he is going to give it to the local ATF office because, as he sees it, "it is an untraceable firearm".

What are you gaining by not faxing your FFL? Or perhaps what are you losing? I'm not trying to stir the pot or pick a side but what is the big deal?

So what does this clown need to clear the situation so the customer doesn't have to stand around with his thumb up his ass while the feds try to sort it out?

I wonder what the local sheriff or county attorney would say to a call asking him if the dealer who, having agreed to accept and transfer a firearm does not deliver that firearm to the new owner? In some circles that is known as theft.

Hopefully, the local ATF agent will be knowledgable and simply tell the asshole to complete the transfer. My limited experience is that they are reasonable and practical guys who try to be helpful while sticking to the strict interpretation of the law. A polite call to the dealers local ATF with the particulars and your side of the situation my get this guy straight.

My guess is that there is more to this than we know. I wonder if the new owner did something to really piss this dealer off, like look at a similar gun but then buy by mail?

Do let us know how it comes out.

Roger

Sure does not sound right. The few I have bought and sold have been easy. The ones I sold, I get the money and a copy of the FFL and it goes out UPS to the buyers dealer. From time to time UPS wants to see the FFL copy. The ones I have bought, I go down to the local shop, he burns me a copy. I send it with the money. He calls when it is in. He runs it across his books and does the back round.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

there is a concern over untraceable firearms being sent from an unknown or unverifyable source across state lines to the FFL holder for transfer/sale to a private individual.

Big deal.....who cares where it came from.....the very fact that it's being sent to an FFL to do a background check on the new buyer is what is important here!!!!!!Where it came from is totally irrelevant......we do not do background checks on sellers!

More bullshit!!!!!!!!!

This is simply low level govt. employees making law and it's wrong!

No sir. What's going on now began w/ Bill Clinton, The President of These United States during his last term. For those w/ short memories, He mandated the increase of ATF agents by the hundreds for the sole purpose to do site inspections of FFL holders w/ the intent of reducing the number of licensed dealers. At that time, my inlaw was the supervisor of ATF firearm tracing operations out of DC and I was offered the job. I turned it down.

This crap comes from directives from the top and is well planned and well orchestrated. If none of you are guild gunsmiths, go talk to one. They began going after them last year.

W/ the democrats running the show and w/ so many career liberal anti-second amendment government officials deeply rooted into the ATF; many hard working gun shop owners and gunsmiths find themselves struggling to keep their houses in order to prevent being the next target for elimination. My close friend is a guild smith and I thought he was going to have a stroke over this crap.

THAT IS WHY AN FFL HOLDER WOULD REFUSE RECEIPT OF AN OUT OF STATE FIREARM FROM A TOTAL STRANGER W/OUT ANY DOCUMENTATION TO TRACE THAT FIREARM.

I could probably go another page covering the FFL holders I'm aware of who are being screwed over royally by the feds at this moment over such documentation.

GVA

Gary:

Exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
Not what's next, but what happened first. The buyer agreed to the price and I told him to get a copy of the receiving dealer's FFL. He emails me back and says the guy won't give him a copy of his but he wants my FAX number so it can be faxed to me! Saysa he won't give out his FFl to anyone but another dealer!

Now what the hell is with that?

I've had this happen with two dealers. The first would require me to provide a stamped & addressed envelope and he would then mail off the copy. The other, a recent experience, required the recipient's Fax number so he could fax it.

The problem is, that even though the Feds don't require that the seller provide an FFL neither do they prohibit the recipient from requiring one. I've spoken with them at length. It seems that as far as the ATF is concerned you may add on as many layers of your own rules as you'd like as long as they are not illegal.

Our shop sells target rifles.

Lots of target rifles.

We view the transfer dealer as our ally. A friend.

I've written this before, but I'll write it again: I include a copy of our FFL with every packing slip going with a rifle to a FFL we haven't worked with before.

It doesn't take much effort, and it costs virtually nothing.

I can't for the life of me see any problem here.

And I can't at all understand why Jim wouldn't want to include a copy of his FFL.

flaco

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
And I can't at all understand why Jim wouldn't want to include a copy of his FFL.

flaco

Or, why he would want to cry in public.

What I have been wondering about for the past couple of days is what internet forum is the other dealer posting on. I am sure he is somewhere on the net ranting about a hard-head in MN that refuses to send a copy of is FFL for osme reason. Instead of trying to help their mutual customer, the MN hard-head is digging his heels in and trying to dictate how the recieving dealer operate his business.

Both cases can be made equally well. But what is happening is the client is getting pinched in the middle. If I were him, it would be a long time before I used either dealer again.

Flaco-

I have shipped God only knows how many guns. I ALWAYS have a signed copy of my FFL in the package, just as you suggest. Gurantees no pissing matches as is happening here, doesn't it?