Att: AR members,



In late Febuary or March of '03, I placed an order for a MRC 1999 SS S/A mag boltface. Their website states (or did) that my credit card would not be charged until my order was shipped. The very next month my credit card was billed by MRC for my action even though it had not been shipped.



In late Nov of '03 my action was finally shipped to my FFL holder. I was charged $15.00 at this time for S&H. After receiving the action and examining it, I found numerous defects including a hole on the side of the receiver above the bolt release button and the bolt was stiff when lowering in the fire position. After consulting with several 'smiths I sent the action back to MRC on Dec 04, 03. I included a letter pointing out the defects of the action. A week and a half went by and no response from MRC so I called them. MRC stated their 'smith would have to examine the action to determine if it was defective. Another week went by and I called again, this time Dan stated the action could be repaired and it did indeed have some defects. I declined the offer for a repaired action and he asked if I wanted a new replacement. I declined again and asked for a refund instead. He said I would receive a refund and would credit my credit card co.



No credit or refund came so I called again in late Dec, this time I asked to talk to the owner -Brian. Brian's response was he did not handle the bookeeping and refered me back to Dan. Dan stated my paperwork was placed on Brian's desk and assured me a refund would go out that week.



Another week went by and still no refund so I sent an E mail to Dan requesting a refund again. No reply and it has been over a week since that request.



I have been patient with MRC this whole time and am tiring of making phone calls to them. I returned the defective action well within the 30 day inspection period listed (or was) on their website to qualify for a full refund plus handling charges. I paid for a defective product from MRC nearly 8 mos before I received it and now I am having problems obtaining a refund from this company.



MtnHtr

From being one of the most responsive companies out there they have changed a bit lately. I have e-mailed them twice in the last month and have received no responses and they've had my money for about 8 months.

Just received a PM from another AR member who has not received their refund either. This is not looking good at all. I call the owner of a company and he refers me back to his salesmen as if they are responsible for my refund. Yet the salesmen state all refunds are given out by the owner........what kind of business ethics is this?

MRC's website states this:

"If you are not satisfied with your action, you may return it within 30 days for a full refund, less shipping & handling fees. The action must be unused and in original condition with all packaging materials intact.

If you receive an action that is defective, The Montana Rifle Co. will either replace the action or offer a full refund including shipping & handling charges."

Are there any consumer agencies in Montana?

MtnHtr

Mtn, document EVERY transaction (written and verbal) with this Co. This is information your Credit Card Co. will need when/if you dispute the charge to your card. I've been down this road before. Since you used your card you'll come out on top. Still, this is very unfortunate for the Co. you're dealing with as reputaion is everything in our small shooting community.

Brad,
Thanks for your reply. My wife has the phone bill and credit card invoice showing when MRC billed our credit card. She was pissed (and still is) when they billed us and no goods in hand! Here is what MRC's website says on credit cards for payment:

"Forms Of Payment

Credit card: We only accept MasterCard and Visa.

We also accept electronic payments via PayPal.

Your credit card will be charged only upon shipment of your order"

I really was hoping I would not have to go public here on AR with this but this is where MRC promoted their charter issue campaign product last year. I just hope they are not planning on you know what?

MtnHtr

MRC never promised shipment when the credit cards were billed on the SS SA's. That was a start up venture and every step of the way was documented here by MRC. As I recall they first took the orders and when they got to maybe 400 or more pieces they placed the tooling order with Ruger. This was big bucks to them and that's where they needed the money. They said this right out in the open and said here that that's when they would bill the cards. So we got the fun of the anticipation and all the stuff from Jack Belk to read here.

The promise from MRC on delivery is not exact in my mind after billing but it was about 14 weeks. Correct me if I am wrong please. Then of course as things went along the date was pushed out. We all wanted the actions in August of course to hunt them but many did not get shipped until November.

I suggest that everyone calm down. They are shipping actions and taking care of customer service. However one should document everything as suggested above. Just make one more polite phone call to MRC but before you do read back on what the facts are on this run of the new SA's.

I have discovered that many people when reading an advertisment, read what they want it to say rather than what it actually says. Case in point, On my website under monthly specials I offer Bell&Carlson thumbhole stocks to fit Mauser 98 and Remington M700LA. While they last $99. I received an e-mail yesterday from a person that wanted to buy four of the Remington M700 long actions for $99 ea. Not the stocks, the actions. This has happened two dozen times in the last six months. The stocks are now sold out so I will remove the ad. When I tell them to go back and read it again they see the light.
I have dealt with the Montana Rifle Co. for a long time and have found them to be a very honorable company. When Dan or any of there other people tell you something you can take it to the bank.
Right from the start of the action program it was made very plain how it would work. The purpose was to get the actions on the market with enough guaranteed sales to pay for the tooling. In exchange for the loan of your money for a short time you got an action for less than the dealer price. Anyone who participated got an action with a list price of $475 for $350. Assuming it took eight months from the time your credit card was charged until you got your action you received an annual rate of return on your money of 53.6% ($125 for 240 days). For anyone that is not satisfied with that I ask What is your bank paying you for your money?
Before we start ripping someone apart lets go back and review the entire proceeding and find out who in haste did not read the fine print before jumping in.

99, it would seem since the man asked for a refund in his letter of Dec. 4 03, that it would be taken care of in a timley matter. It sounds like he talked with Dan and the owner(Brian), so why the delay and getting jerked around.
Does not show much for customer service as I see it.

Savage99 is right about terms of sale on the charter issue actions. Cards would be billed when the right number of actions were commited to, not on delivery. The terms on the web sight are for their general sales, not charter issues. This was the trade-off for the cheaper price. That does not answer the other concerns, however.

When I placed my order for four actions the add said my card would not be billed until they were shipped. When I called them they said it would be billed I went ahead with the order. I have recieved two both shipped at different times. Since I ordered them together they should have been sent together to save on shipping and transfer fees plus they have used my money for free. It has cost me 15 for shipping and 15 for ffl transfer so I am out thirty buck a action. I would have to say I havent really saved any money on this deal. Still dont have the other two. We as customers have done them a good turn suppling them with some cash flow on a proiject so we are not out of line expecting good service in return.
If they cant make a refund are they haveing cash problems?
I did recive one action with a broken extractor which they were quick in sending a new one to me.

The easiest thing to do is to call the credit card comapny and let them work it...there is a procedure for disputed charges and I believe you would still be in the window.

Call the customer service number on your credit card and let them earn some on the interest they charge you....

For gosh sakes guys, it sounds like Deja Vu all over again. I don't doubt you guys are having some problems, but take it from me, if someone airs your gripe on 24hourcampfire, let it lie. It seems the good guys come out of their holes in the rocks and make you sound like the worst guy in the world. For those of you who don't remember, go back and look up the threads on this and the other forum on Pac-Nor barrel's customer service.

Jim

Not taking ANY sides, just offering advice.

If one returns merchandises, with an RMA, and the return is not processed rapidly (you are paying interest on your CC) your credit card company and and will reverse the charge, with faxed proofed of RMA and shipping.


This should be taken private, and when resolved, this should be deleted from the forums, as this place aint the offical BBB

jeffe

Gents,
Ths is from the "Montana Rifleman" site.
I have not ordered one of the new actions. Sort of glad I waited.




Ordering & Pricing

Federal Law mandates that "all" actions must be shipped to a licensed firearms dealer.

A signed copy of the Dealers F.F.L. must be received before the product can ship.

Forms Of Payment

Credit card: We only accept MasterCard and Visa.

We also accept electronic payments via PayPal.

Your credit card will be charged only upon shipment of your order.

Check or Money Order: You can use our order form below to order with a check or money order. We are still working on a online ordering system, so please be patient. Once payment is received and cleared the order will be shipped as soon as product is available.

Send your check or money order to:

The Montana Rifle Company
2593A Hwy 2 East
Kalispell, MT 59901

We cannot accept C.O.D.'s on orders unless it has been approved by the general manager

Guarantees

If you are not satisfied with your action, you may return it within 30 days for a full refund, less shipping & handling fees. The action must be unused and in original condition with all packaging materials intact.

If you receive an action that is defective, The Montana Rifle Co. will either replace the action or offer a full refund including shipping & handling charges.


This says it all. Nothing gray here.

I think Dan should address this as soon as possible. Here at this posting. This kind of feedback from customers is not good for business.

I had issues with Montana Rifleman before Dan went to work there, so I won't comment as to the new "Montana Rifleman".

Roger QSL

jeff, maybe you would care to explain this comment by you::
This should be taken private, and when resolved, this should be deleted from the forums, as this place aint the offical BBB

Why should this not be here for folks to see how MRC is handling a problem. Seems to me from what mtnhtr has written and done that MRC is not following through on its advertised warranty, plain and simple.

MRC chose to promote their products here on an open forum so thats why I am posting my experiences with them here. I'm not the first to do so and probably not the last. My last phone call to them in late Dec I asked to speak with the owner - Brian. I explained why I was calling and he refered me back to Dan. Dan stated he placed my refund paperwork on Brian's desk (why this late?) and I should be receiving my refund later that week. Two weeks have past and nothing, its been over a month since I returned the action. No refund from MRC, it should not have taken this long.

I have had a bad feeling about this Co since the Walex thread. I notice MRC went to great lengths to assure customers they would receive a quality product after that thread. My 1999 action had not one but several problems/defects. Where is MRC now? I paid MRC in advance for a product which was defective, I returned it and asked for a full refund. How difficult is it to refund a customer especially when the owner of the Co was contacted by the customer?

MtnHtr

Ok guys, first off its partially your fault for letting them charge your CC in advance. Thats just pure stupid, since they claim it wont happen until its shipped. You have a time period to challenge a CC charge, are you sure you can challenge it after 8 months? Did you pay the balance off right away?

MtnHtr, Why did you decide on a refund instead of letting then fix the problem? I'm not passing judgment, but I am curious. You obviously had a custom rifle project in mind, what are your plans now?

Terry

MtnHtr

I'm sorry to hear about your problems with MRC. Usually, they are pretty with it in terms of customer care, maybe the holidays got their system out of whack? In any event, I hope you get your refund issue sorted out.

Quote:

---

In late Febuary or March of '03, I placed an order for a MRC 1999 SS S/A mag boltface. Their website states (or did) that my credit card would not be charged until my order was shipped. The very next month my credit card was billed by MRC for my action even though it had not been shipped.

---

This part of your gripe is not quite correct. Here is a quote outlining one of the MRC charter issues. The charter issues were all modelled the same: i.e. credit cards would be hit when the threshhold (varied from action type to action type) order number was reached. Then tool development would start, then (at some point) shipment would come - now coming on-line at least for the RH SA models. LH still to come.

Quote:

---

Montana Rifle Company is pleased to announce a special offer on the M1999 Left Handed Long Action. In order to bring the LH Long Action to the market in the shortest possible time, MRC will offer a maximum of 350 actions at a charter issue price of $350.00. These actions will be serialized starting at 0001 and ranging up to 0350. Serial numbers will be issued in chronological order from the date of receipt of a fully paid order. In addition, special requests (i.e. consecutive numbers) will be accepted on a first come-first serve basis. The sale of the first 100 units will generate enough revenue to start the molds and delivery is 20-26 weeks afterward. No checks or credit cards will deposited or run until we hit the 100-unit starting mark. ...

---

The above quote is from the following AR thread - I could not immediately locate the SA RH charter issue thread, but if you feel like looking, go ahead, it is in here somewhere.



MRC Charter Issue Conditions



- mike

One little comment from the original MRC detractor/badguy. Looking at the

Clio Gun Shop's flakey reasoning on what is such a great return on an investment on a defective product, well, I may be just a simple Alaskan country boy, but I don't think I'll be doing much business with those good old boys either!

When someone sells something, there are four warranties that cannot be waived. Basically, the product has to be what the seller says it is, and it has to do what he claims it will do. If they tell you that the product is fixable, they have admitted it is defective.

If someone orders a product, and it is not what the seller advertised, or won't do what the seller said it would do, the seller has failed to complete the contract, and has to make the buyer whole again, i.e., put him back to where he would have been if he had not entered into the transaction.

In actual fact, most start-ups are cash starved, and a lot of insiders end up investing a lot of work at little pay to get it off the ground. They are going to be much more able to make it right with a new action than with cash.

All that said, there is a clock running on your credit card protest period. If you are set that you don't want their product, you are not required to take a replacement to settle the issue. They failed to timely perform, the contract is null and void, and they have to give you your money back, including shipping. File your protest with the credit card company at once.

If you're willing to accept product, call them and tell them that unless good product is in the mail to you within about 2 days, you are going to dispute the charges on your card. That will get them off the dime.

Good luck. I'm watching them closely, and saving money for a new action. If they are doing well, it may be MRC...

Hellrazor... a little history: The "Charter Issue" actions are an offer MRC made to the members of this and perhaps other venues to help finance the creation of a new line of actions. They would normally sell for $465 to $495 but when MRC was ready to add another model to the line, they offered the first 350 or so buyers a special price ($350) if they could collect the funds at some mutually agreed to point prior to production. That point has differed with different models and participation is a little like a lottery or buying the first production year of a new car model; you need to accept the risks therein. This is a completly separate offer from their web site sales and everyone who participated either new that or could not read english well. What is the same as the website is the warranty. If a customer is unhappy with the product they have the option to replace it or refund the money. For me, this is where the rubber meets the road and I am waiting (but not too anxiously) to see how this turns out as I have 3 actions at stake. Before you rate the product on one issue look at Bill Leeper's review in "gunsmithing". One unfortunate sitiuation does not a bad company make.

The issue here is the lack of a refund for a returned defective product. I have been keeping this mum for awhile in hopes it could have been resolved without going public with this. But MRC has seemed to have forgotten about me and my refund. I may be wrong for bringing up the early billing of the credit card if thats how it was spelled out here on AR. For that part, I apologise to anyone who was offended. But keep in mind, MRC failed in delivering a defective free product, the receiver had a hole in it's side among other defects which would have taken much more to repair than " a liitle extra polishing."

MtnHtr

It was posted that no cards would be charged until the number was reached but what happened with me was when I called them with my order that said they were going to charge it them mine have a serial no. below 300.
I blame me for going along with it.
I am not trying to blast MRC the two actions I have look ok however I dont think anyone is out of line posting a honest problem here after all there has been a lot of press on the board from them.
The people who have paid in advance and carried them for all this time have been the ones doing them a favor they have a right to expect top notch service from them.

MtnHtr,

After I cycled & witness Walex's barreled action defect with my own eyes (a cocked firing pin dropped when you close the action w/o pulling the trigger- maybe every 10-25 times you cycled the action this would happen - no thanks.......) , I too called up MRC and canceled my LH order.

My point is, MRC did refund my credit card and walex's promply. Take it for what it's worth.

MtnHtr Stick to your guns, go right to your credit card co. and get your refund. MRC has repeatedly shipped out defective products, long after they promised not to. You are 100% in the right about them promoting and standing to profit out in the open on the website here. They should have to answer for not holding up their end, and your fellow gunsport travellers should like to have warning of any pitfalls or dangers in the path, right here on the same forum. The sychophants and sucker uppers say you are doing the wrong thing for even mentioning a defective and possibly dangerous product. The ball cutters have done a remarkable job in the last 50 years in this country. They would have us cower and hide no matter how bad one's been screwed over. Like a herd of sheep. Myself, I know you done the manly thing. If you saved one guy by causing him to look closer, and maybe not get his hands or head blown off by a defective rifle action, you're a real man in my book. Done a service to our under-siege shooting sports too.

Clio's logic would be flakey if a lot, or most, or all of the product shipped was defective. We have a 117 of them that are fine. Turned back two, exchanged them. Got immediate replacement service.

The product aside, the refund issue deserves attention. No doubt about that.

They were able to promtly refund CK's money and mine because they were flush from just cashing in MtnHtr's chips and others who ante'ed up a little later and were at least 8 months away from wanting their money back. Happens quite offen in business when the chickens are financing their own plucking. Walex

Rod I don't recall that MtnHtr invested in 100 or more actions. He invested in one. He paid interest for 8 months or more. He recived one defective unusable action. That means he lost 100 % of that investment, and he's out 100% if he don't get his money back. So what the hell are you talking about? 117 good and 2 bad is one heck of a long ways from what I'd call a low rejection rate, not much to crow about and i think i would rate your stock company right in there with Clio, if you thought one stock ordered, one defective stock received was a good investment for your customers.

Terry,



A defective rifle "could kill someone", just like a defective car. Walex and I witness the firing pin drop on his rifle over & over without pulling trigger. It was defective. That is a fact, which is not safe, and was not designed to function that way. So lies? Well maybe MRC has just been lucky.



MRC does need defenders.........And they got you Terry. All the other guys that have a gripe with MRC...........Well, they've got Walex. A left and right, makes the world go around.



One suggestion, customer service should be pumped up when a product has not satisfied the customer. Get it............The man wants his money back. If MRC would have given the man a refund in the first place, we wouldn't be here talking about this, would we............

Walex
I don't think MtnHtr did anything wrong in posting this, He went thru normal channels and hasn't received proper treatment. MRC uses this site to promote their product and satisfied consumers post their comments, me included. That being said, your only purpose here is to take the opportunity to take another shot at MRC. It's tough to take much of what you say with any credibility, with all things considered. I will be watching how this unfolds. It's unfortunate, but these things happen. If it happens with regularity then I'll start being more concerned.

I would really like to know how this action ever got out the door. MRC asembles them and somebody had to see it and still let it out the door. I expect problems with any start up product, but they should never let it get out to the consumer. My two cents and worth a nickle.

CK, All I'm doing is calling attention to the fact Walex is making statments he can't back up! He's just TROLLING, nothing more.



Hell, I'm not defending MRC, Never invested a nickle with the company and have nothing at stake here if they make it or not. From what I've heard, it sounds like MtnHtr should already have his money back.



I just think it's a damn shame when someone gets on these forums and makes statments they can't back up. Read Walex's last statment directed at Rod@acrabond and tell me he's not trying to twist the truth?



I just call'm like I see'm



Terry

Terry, most of the time I got better things to do than dink around on this silly ass computer. I could care less about MRC, They'll stand or fall on their own doing, and nothing I or anyone else says on this S-ASS computer will have much of an effect on that. I still think their ideas for a rifle action are great, but that they bit off about as much or more than they could chew, with no margin for glitches, and like so many small operations, didn't have a clue how to avoid or handle or anticipate potential problems like faulty assembly. Shipping obviously defective products out shows this. the only other reason is that they are up against it money-wise, and desparate does as desparate is. How else can one explain sending a cast product to a customer who is a rock solid participant on this forum where the product was promoted, with a hole in it? If I'm a liar and you are right about no one ever has been hurt by defective firearms, why did Jack Belk testify against major firearms companies in defective firearms injury lawsuits and why do Rugers come with 10 pound pull non-adjustable triggers? I think that if you reasearhed the literature and lawsuit cases enough you'd come up with more than enough examples of defective firearm injury. I come across one thread today, where it was said that the pre-64 model 70's lack of ability to safely handle gas was a design defect and caused the loss of a few eyes, anyway why don't you do the reserch, you shouldn't take any one else's word for something like that anyway. Walex

He should get a refund if not satisfied.

People pay interest on money when they barrow, in return the CC company help's the card holder if there is a problem, within reason.

Had he paid with a money order or debit card, there wouldnt be interest.

Less chance of you getting your money back with out legal fees and/or the police involved.

In my opinion, all mass produced rifles an/or actions have flaws every now and then.

Whens the last time you heard of Remington giving a refund for one of there rifles? The usually replace them if it is found diffective by there standards ( and not the owners standards).

The firearm community/us are very picky when we plop down cash for guns. Where does one set the limit on what is acceptable for said ammount of dollars?

Everyone on the boards wanted a improved Winchester action, MRC step'd up to the plate.

How many complaints have you read about Rem, Win, Ruger, Savage, Marlin, and a host of others.

What is the count for bad actions to date from MRC? 5 out of 500/1000/1500?

How knows, maybe there going bankrupt from all the critics.

The internet can have good opinions and bad, take them for what its worth.

I would be suprised if Mnthntr doesnt get his money back.

You're the one making the statments, you do the research, and after you do, please tell me of one instance where somebody has been hurt or maimed using one of these MRC actions.



If I remember correctly, both the gunsmiths that examined your action said it was defective but not dangerous. Mr. Belk said the MRC was a fine action and would rather use a MRC than a Dakota.



What's up with the tirade against Rod and Clio gun shop anyway? Calls your credibility into question. You have an agenda against this company and others that missed your last post's about this company should know that.



Terry

TCI "can you prove any this?" this is real cute. Only if MRC is ready to open their books and bank statements up on this forum could I prove that tongue in cheek statement and you're a bright enough little fellow to know that ain't going to happen and that's the reason you feel safe in saying that. You and guys like Rod are the real trolls here and twist things around. Here in Alaska we more commonly refer to your type as "Weasels" a type that postmodern liberal America seems to well supplied with nowadays. It's guys like you that I take some saatisfaction in taking a shot at, not MRC. They've been shooting at themsselves lately, mostly at their own feet. Read Rods post real close, if that isn't twisting things around, I don't know what is. Walex