folks,

Just bought an old Army & Navy shotgun a couple of weeks ago. [See my thread in the Shotgun forum.]

I took it out today to shoot some trap and see ho it shoots. Five shots into the second round I look down and see that a chunk is missing from the stock. Wanted to throw up.

Also the stock at the rear of the tang is chipping.










Wasn't shooting 'hot' loads. Started out with some Estate Cartridge, 3 Dram, 1 1/8 oz, 7 1/2 shot for the first round. Followed by five shots of Remington 3 1/4 Dram, 1 oz, 8 shot.

Maybe the Remington was too hot? Maybe the wood was oil soaked (it wasn't apparent when I pulled the lock off).

So, any suggestions as to whom to send this too, to get it repaired? Think I'll have to get it restocked?

Thanks,

-Steve

send it to JJ Perodeau at Champlin's in Enid OK.

Sorry to see your break there. I really do feel for you. It looks like a very nice gun. Yes, the loads are too hot. You need to be shooting appropriate pressure ammo in the gun. I am sure there were cracks you did not see which were opened up by your use of high pressure ammo. THat was a dinky repair job done on the wood. Don't mess with the splinter and see if soem one can stick it back together for you. Some one on the order of JJ already mentioned.

And get some proper shells for the gun

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Sorry to see your break there. I really do feel for you. It looks like a very nice gun. Yes, the loads are too hot. You need to be shooting appropriate pressure ammo in the gun. I am sure there were cracks you did not see which were opened up by your use of high pressure ammo. THat was a dinky repair job done on the wood. Don't mess with the splinter and see if soem one can stick it back together for you. Some one on the order of JJ already mentioned.

And get some proper shells for the gun

Chamber pressure has nothing to do with recoil energy.

That was probably oil soaked, rotten wood.

quote:

Chamber pressure has nothing to do with recoil energy.

Ok I know I'm not the brightest bulb here so please explain that to me.

Shawn

Your factory ammo is FINE for this gun, after all it's english, and undoubtably has nitro proof marks.

Seem me a pic of your proof marks and i'll tell you what they mean.

Here's a point... 12 ga pressure AINT changed since smokeless.


the temper of the wood (that's not really a word) looks like crap where it broke... i wouldn't doubt that it's has swollen.


more pressure in the same size will have more recoil... that's how we do load developement!!


estate loads feels like firecracker, not shotshells.

Jeff,

If you look over at the shotgun forum, you'll see the proof marks. Clearly Nitro Proof and no re-proof marks.

I suspect that you're correct about the wood. There was a ton of grease in the locks. The wood didn't look too bad, but I'm certainly no expert.

-Steve

Was it a new stock on a restored gun?

Id say the stock wasnt fitted properly and bedded to the reciever right.
The stock bolt was tightened down(probably to tight)and all the force was on that spot where it split the piece off. Or it was started to split when the stock bolt was tightened. Its a fit and bedding problem.

I would mix up some agraglass gel and color and just fix it . If you want you can restock it latter.

I bedded my sxs's at the reciever tang area with agraglass gel . I had one split in the same way.

Sorry to hear it broke.

quote:

Originally posted by bluetick:

quote:

Chamber pressure has nothing to do with recoil energy.

Ok I know I'm not the brightest bulb here so please explain that to me.

Shawn

The Hornady loading manual, the little one that they give away for free in the gun shops, explains this.

Recoil is determined by Mv and the "ejecta weight". The ejecta weight includes the wad and the weight of the powder charge. Although the powder is converted to gas on firing it still has the same total mass and is expelled with the projectile.

I have a pair of muzzle loading shotguns. A 3 dram load is 84grs of black powder (this is were "drams equvilent" come from, a Mv that is equal to to that of X # of drams of black powder)

Although it has a similar Mv to a 3 dram smokeless powder load, and is @ a fraction of the chamber pressure, the recoil is horrendous compered to smokeless. It is not as sharp, but it sure do raise 'er up when ya "touch 'er off.

Jeff:
Yes, pressure of shells HAS changed since the introduction of smokeless powder. And no, these shells are not apporiate for this gun. Well, i do not know the pressure of the Estates, but I am sure the Rems are over proof. AFAIK the Estates are loaded to US pressures (ie-too hot for this gun)

THe stock looks like it had what i was calling a "dinky repair" with some epoxy on the inside of the head of the stock. SOme one who know what they are doing can likely fix it. I have fixed heads of stocks in the same condition before-eevn without having the splinters. DOn't be monkeying with the two pieces of wood where the break is. THe more you play with the break, the easier the repair will be to see. THe head of the stock may be completely shot, no way to tell without holding it. As said in my original post, I imagine it had a crack when you bought it and you missed it. Did the stock have any play at all?

ANd yes, shooting high pressure shells will hasten wear and tear on your gun. Post on this site:

gunshop.comgunshop.com

THis site deals with these issues every day. Again, I asure am sorry to hear about your new gun breaking like this. It is a hard lesson on inspecting guns prior to buying and choosing the right shotgun shell.

If you were shooting Remington shells, you were shooting 2 3/4" shells in a gun with 2 1/2" chambers. This may not have been the primary cause of this breakage, but you should stick with 2 1/2" loads.

Frank,

It's chambered for 2 3/4 and nitro proofed for 1 1/4 oz loads.

-Steve

I storngly sugggest you post this on the gunshop.com page if you want some help in getting it fixed and getting a lead on good shells for the gun. Remmington shells are loaded to around 12,000 psi, regardless of "dram" printed on the box. THe pressure is the same for each velocity and weight combination. The CIP proof shells used for this gun are likely 9,000-9500 psi or so. Post the proof marks and the guys can tell you exactly what it is. Using the 2 3/4" shells in and of itself is not really a bad thing in guns with 2 1/2" chambers (which I know this gun does not have). It is the pressure of the shells that is the issue. Chamber length does not matter as long as the shell can open enough to get the shot cup out. Very steep forcing cones can cause problems, but they are not taht common. No offense to this forum, but it is not the best place to ask English shotgun help. I towuld be lik epoting about loads for .505 Gibbs over on the gunshop.com board-knowledgable guys, but not their forte.

Mark,

Thanks! Already ahead of you on Gunshop.com. Here's the thread. It's a long thread that I started a week or so ago when trying to narrow down the proof marks and history of the gun.

I posted the loads I was using when I asked about the damage. Haven't had any comments yet.

Thanks,

-Steve

Steve,
It looks to me like that big chunk had already been glued back in, or an attempt to glue it. The shiny look appears to be superglue but it could be clear expoxy. The white at the rear of the tang looks a lot like acraglass. I would be talking to whoever you bought this from.

Steve,

I agree with the others about it looking like an old half-ass repair job. This would have broken out with any shells that you could have used. Simply recoil induced failure.

I own and shoot eight antique SxSs, I do handload for them as I want to keep the pressures down and not put unnessisary wear on the frame and locking points. There are several good loads using SR-7625 that fall into the 5-7K psi range. This is what I load for my 12 bores. I am happy with the 1165fps speed that I get with this class of loads. They work just fine in the field.

Another place to look for the care and feeding of SxSs, is the group of articles by Sherman Bell in the Double Gun Journal, call finding out for my self. This is a very informative set of articles, well worth your time to look them up. They were done in the last two years.

Hog Killer

Hog Killer I use SR7625 in my old hammer 12 bore it. It works well low pressure 1100fps plus kills a lot of birds.

Thats definitely been repaired before. That chip has superglue and acraglass all over it. Unless all that shiny stuff is grease. Im with Chic....call the guy you bought it from.

Rusty's recommendation is a great one. Another is Dave Wolf in Waco Texas. I had an Army Navy Boxlock redone by Dave, and he did superb work. He does lots of wood work for Briley and other custom makers. He has a special brew for taking the oil out of stocks and I saw a few broken stocks in his shop that he was repairing. Not cheap but very good. He turned my gun around in about 3 weeks. Dave Wolf 254-848-4199

Bob

Guy's,

I spoke with JJ this morning and the rock in the pit of my stomach seem's to be getting smaller.

He's pretty sure that he can fix it. The glues they have now are better than those of years past.

He said he can remove any oil in the wood if it's soaked. At the same time I'll see if I can get the locks cleaned and PM'ed and get a new recoil pad put on it (and the LOP extended).

I'll also ask him about appropriate loads.

I spent a few hours in his shop a few years back. He was very gracious and spent a lot of time with me. This even though I was clear I wasn't buying and they were getting ready for SCI. It's time I pay him back...

Thanks Guys!

-Steve

In regards to calling the person from whom you bought it, did they give you an inspection period? That is the time to find things like cracked stocks. Most of the English shotguns will have at least a little crack some where. It is normal to thoroughly inspect the gun before the inspection period ends. If they did not offer an inspectoion period, then you were totally on your own if you decided to do business with them anyway (I won't buy a gun without an inspection period). On a roughly 70 year old gun with very thin pieces of wood at the head of the stock, searching for cracks should be the first order of business. THen if you decide to keep the gun, you can fix them before shooting. It was an expesnive lesson, but one that will be remebered!