quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
As well as their willingness to stand behind their product. But I bet their barrels seldom come back.

That would be my bet too. I had only one, and that was a squirelly issue, that ain't worth the words to explain. They worked it out, and we moved on. That's what I remember most, and what really mattered.

KB

quote:

Let me ask you what was the profile of this barrel? Was it a hunting provide or was it a heavy match.

BTW That 80-81 grains of 860-872 is too much and do you know that Hodgdon does not give data for military surplus powders? Who do you think makes that 872? Both those powder burn extremely hot. Pushing that much powder through a 264 would make the barrel very very hot from the powder burn alone. It doesn't surprise me that it had fire cracking in the bore. I filled my 264 case up with those powder and 81 grains comes to the base of the neck....too much powder, too much heat, too much of the powder getting blown into the bore before igniting, too much powder abrasiveness on the throat.

I'm now understanding your quest for high velocity from the 264 Win Mag. Before I suggested the 6.5/284 for better barrel life and less powder. Now I suggest why don't you just build a 257 Weatherby Mag?

It was a hunting contour. US-869 is not a military surplus powder. Hodgdon manufactures it and it is available everywhere. I'm not talking about load development for the .264 WM with you anymore. I've worked with it enough with Stonecreek's 40 years of experience to know what works. You obviously are inexperienced with the cartridge. If you want about 72% case fill, you can use the "pistol powders" as Stonecreek calls them; H4831, IMR7828, or anything else along those lines. Realize that the .264 has had no new load data developed or printed for it for years. There is one factory loading available for it that I'm aware of. If you own one you've just volunteered to "be your own ballistician", again in Stonecreek's words.

Everything I've taken from his years of experience with the .264 is gospel and I have confirmed it with actual work on the loading for the cartridge.

You'll figure it out if you own one.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Let me ask you what was the profile of this barrel? Was it a hunting provide or was it a heavy match.

BTW That 80-81 grains of 860-872 is too much and do you know that Hodgdon does not give data for military surplus powders? Who do you think makes that 872? Both those powder burn extremely hot. Pushing that much powder through a 264 would make the barrel very very hot from the powder burn alone. It doesn't surprise me that it had fire cracking in the bore. I filled my 264 case up with those powder and 81 grains comes to the base of the neck....too much powder, too much heat, too much of the powder getting blown into the bore before igniting, too much powder abrasiveness on the throat.

I'm now understanding your quest for high velocity from the 264 Win Mag. Before I suggested the 6.5/284 for better barrel life and less powder. Now I suggest why don't you just build a 257 Weatherby Mag?

It was a hunting contour. US-869 is not a military surplus powder. Hodgdon manufactures it and it is available everywhere. I'm not talking about load development for the .264 WM with you anymore. I've worked with it enough with Stonecreek's 40 years of experience to know what works. You obviously are inexperienced with the cartridge. If you want about 72% case fill, you can use the "pistol powders" as Stonecreek calls them; H4831, IMR7828, or anything else along those lines. Realize that the .264 has had no new load data developed or printed for it for years. There is one factory loading available for it that I'm aware of. If you own one you've just volunteered to "be your own ballistician", again in Stonecreek's words.

Everything I've taken from his years of experience with the .264 is gospel and I have confirmed it with actual work on the loading for the cartridge.

You'll figure it out if you own one.

....then again you're the one having the problems.

quote:

....then again you're the one having the problems.

"The Problem" will be removed, heated, and then bent into a pretzel shape before it is sent back to Woody along with a letter to Germany and everyone in charge here.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

....then again you're the one having the problems.

"The Problem" will be removed, heated, and then bent into a pretzel shape before it is sent back to Woody along with a letter to Germany and everyone in charge here.

unhuh, like that is going to happen.

I missed it, who did you say you were with...NASA, MIT, Browning,Olin???????

Secret Service

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Correct. In the service industry the manufacturer is liable for the general defects in manufacturing and workmanship as it pertains to there as manufactured product. The smith is responsible for his manufacturing and workmanship. As you said the barrel should have been inspected before any attempt was made to machine it. Then if the smith felt it was usable part and he fouls it up guess what?? He just bought that customer a new barrel and LW is held harmless. but if he for what ever reason feels it was of sub standard quality then he can refuse it a send it back and await a replacement.

Here's where liability gets ugly though. your analogy of the auto mechanic. If as you stated the mechanic installs a part and causes the engine to be damaged the mechanic is responsible for the repair to restore the engine back to the condition in which it was found when the car showed up at his shop. again the manufacturer is held harmless unless a factory defect could be found to have caused the problem i.e. a Ford emblem on the grill I couldn't resist that one

KB,

So with all that are claiming to having a defective barrel from LW, why weren't they looked at before installation? It's easy to cry "bad barrel" after it's been put on the action.

On the car analogy it use to be that clutches on the stick shift cars weren't covered by factory warranty because it's an item that can be abused by the owner through improper use.

Fords are bad from the factory, that's why Chevy beats them. I couldn't resist that one either.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Correct. In the service industry the manufacturer is liable for the general defects in manufacturing and workmanship as it pertains to there as manufactured product. The smith is responsible for his manufacturing and workmanship. As you said the barrel should have been inspected before any attempt was made to machine it. Then if the smith felt it was usable part and he fouls it up guess what?? He just bought that customer a new barrel and LW is held harmless. but if he for what ever reason feels it was of sub standard quality then he can refuse it a send it back and await a replacement.

Here's where liability gets ugly though. your analogy of the auto mechanic. If as you stated the mechanic installs a part and causes the engine to be damaged the mechanic is responsible for the repair to restore the engine back to the condition in which it was found when the car showed up at his shop. again the manufacturer is held harmless unless a factory defect could be found to have caused the problem i.e. a Ford emblem on the grill I couldn't resist that one

KB,

So with all that are claiming to having a defective barrel from LW, why weren't they looked at before installation? It's easy to cry "bad barrel" after it's been put on the action.

On the car analogy it use to be that clutches on the stick shift cars weren't covered by factory warranty because it's an item that can be abused by the owner through improper use.

Fords are bad from the factory, that's why Chevy beats them. I couldn't resist that one either.

It is total BS that you can scope a bore and tell how accurate it will be. You'll be more than a millionaire if you can! A friend of mine has seen some that look so bad you would never think of using them, but they bughole.

Shooting them is the test

No not scoping a barrel to prove how accurate it will be. But just a general inspection of condition of bore, straightness etc. You are just looking for signs of shoddy workmanship nothing else.

Base a barrels quality on it's accuracy is completely subjective.

Who's level of accuracy?? Mine or a world class shooter?? off a bench or in a fixture?? with what load?? on and on and on.......

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
KB,
So with all that are claiming to having a defective barrel from LW, why weren't they looked at before installation? It's easy to cry "bad barrel" after it's been put on the action.

It is total BS that you can scope a bore and tell how accurate it will be. You'll be more than a millionaire if you can! A friend of mine has seen some that look so bad you would never think of using them, but they bughole.

Shooting them is the test

Uh, I kinda agree and disagree with both of you on this one.

It's my understanding that barrels from the Big Boys are "looked at" before shipping. I count on it, because I can "look at" it all week, and not know if it's a good barrel or not. I can't speak for gunsmiths. Maybe they should "look at" the barrel, or maybe they should "count on it" as I do, or maybe a combo of both, depending on "looking at it" equipment available.

Old, ugly barrels are besides the point.

Barrel makers such as Shilen, PacNor, Douglas have different grades of barrels. Super and Super-dooper. They are able to class them by inspection and measurments. Surely that means something. I'll bet good money, that if a well known BR shooter called Shilen, for example, and said he wanted a winner barrel, there would be some testing and measuring involved in choosing the right barrel, but ultimately shooting it will be the final pass.

The barrel makers I deal with, including LW, state their standards. The barrel will be in spec or not - black and white - before shooting and after. If a barrel won't shoot, specs can be confirmed, crown can be confirmed, etc.

More often than not, the solution to a barrel that wont shoot accurately depends on the gunsmith's relationship with the customer, and the barrel maker. If in good standing, and each wants to keep it that way, and all are reasonable, they work it out.

I'm fortunate because I have had few problems. I've got one rifle with a custom barrel that won't shoot, which has seen multiple gunsmiths, and sevral years have passed. I could go to Shilen and claim "their" barrel is the problem. How far do you think I would get with that?

KB

quote:

I'm fortunate because I have had few problems. I've got one rifle with a custom barrel that won't shoot, which has seen multiple gunsmiths, and sevral years have passed. I could go to Shilen and claim "their" barrel is the problem. How far do you think I would get with that?

Probably not far since so much time has passed. In my case the barrels were found to not shoot within a couple of weeks of taking delivery.

The point is there is a certain amount of magic to an accurate barrel. A lot of things have to be right with the total package of equipment and load. Barrels that are dimensionally perfect and pass every visual and mechanical inspection may not shoot. Granted, they have a better chance to do so than those where imperfections are found, but there's no iron clad, indisputable way to say that one barrel will be more accurate than another given identical appearance.

RC,
My disagreement, and agreement is that I'll bet that it can be statistically proven that those barrels classed as super-dooper will shoot more accurately, a very high percentage of the time, compared to mere super, by using the measurment and inspection methods available to the big mfgs.

Otherwise, why measure at all?

You're talking individual barrels, and I tend to agree - the proof is in shooting it. But I'm saying that a prediction of probability is valid through inspection and measurment.

I'm curious. Are you saying that in those cases where the odd barrel is bad, despite the probability and specs being very good, the mfg should replace it free?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
RC,
My disagreement, and agreement is that I'll bet that it can be statistically proven that those barrels classed as super-dooper will shoot more accurately, a very high percentage of the time, compared to mere super, by using the measurment and inspection methods available to the big mfgs.

Otherwise, why measure at all?

KB

More than likely, correct.

But even a sooper dooper may not shoot. If it doesn't it should be replaced.

Some really cheap barrels not making the grade to sooper dooper may be real winners.

Shooting them is the test. You saw how the LW barrel shot factory ammo. A pathetic 1.6" group. It did the same after LW "fixed it".

I expect any custom barrel from any of the well known manufacturers to shoot well. I also expect them to replace them if they don't.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
RC,
I'm curious. Are you saying that in those cases where the odd barrel is bad, despite the probability and specs being very good, the mfg should replace it free?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
But even a sooper dooper may not shoot. If it doesn't it should be replaced.

I expect any custom barrel from any of the well known manufacturers to shoot well. I also expect them to replace them if they don't.

That's the issue, isn't it?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
RC,
I'm curious. Are you saying that in those cases where the odd barrel is bad, despite the probability and specs being very good, the mfg should replace it free?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
But even a sooper dooper may not shoot. If it doesn't it should be replaced.


ABSOLUTELY

How many shooters would be happy with a barrel that is pitiful in the accuracy department just because the manufacturer says it's top notch?

That's the issue, isn't it?

KB

If you haven't figured that out yet, please tell me where I've been unclear in any of my posts.

RC,
I sure as heck wouldn't want to get long winded, and worded with this, in explaining where I might have gone wrong in understanding.

KB

RC,

So it's your word against Woody's word. Like I said I heard when he finished with it it shot smaller groups then the 1.6 you say. Hey, maybe you can't shoot? Oh I forgot, you're a master bench rest shooter and you shoot better then anyone else in the world. At any rate for a hunter grade profile what are you expecting? What game did you plan to hunt with it, mites? If you say target shooting then why did you get such a light profile barrel? 1.6 isn't bad for big game and I think you would be a little off hunting varmints with a 264 Win Mag when there are many more better suited calibers that are easier on barrels and powder usage. I keep forgetting, you're the expert on all this and been shooting and reloading since the Chinese first stuffed some black powder down a tube and set it off.

KC, You can inspect a barrel before installation for the things mentioned like straightness, bore uniformity, twist...but there are hitting things you can't see like stress in the metal...and...well..bad gunsmiths.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
RC,

So it's your word against Woody's word. Like I said I heard when he finished with it it shot smaller groups then the 1.6 you say. Hey, maybe you can't shoot? Oh I forgot, you're a master bench rest shooter and you shoot better then anyone else in the world. At any rate for a hunter grade profile what are you expecting? What game did you plan to hunt with it, mites? If you say target shooting then why did you get such a light profile barrel? 1.6 isn't bad for big game and I think you would be a little off hunting varmints with a 264 Win Mag when there are many more better suited calibers that are easier on barrels and powder usage. I keep forgetting, you're the expert on all this and been shooting and reloading since the Chinese first stuffed some black powder down a tube and set it off.

KC, You can inspect a barrel before installation for the things mentioned like straightness, bore uniformity, twist...but there are hitting things you can't see like stress in the metal...and...well..bad gunsmiths.

There's too much rediculousness in this post to even go to the trouble to reply!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
RC,

So it's your word against Woody's word. Like I said I heard when he finished with it it shot smaller groups then the 1.6 you say. Hey, maybe you can't shoot? Oh I forgot, you're a master bench rest shooter and you shoot better then anyone else in the world. At any rate for a hunter grade profile what are you expecting? What game did you plan to hunt with it, mites? If you say target shooting then why did you get such a light profile barrel? 1.6 isn't bad for big game and I think you would be a little off hunting varmints with a 264 Win Mag when there are many more better suited calibers that are easier on barrels and powder usage. I keep forgetting, you're the expert on all this and been shooting and reloading since the Chinese first stuffed some black powder down a tube and set it off.

KC, You can inspect a barrel before installation for the things mentioned like straightness, bore uniformity, twist...but there are hitting things you can't see like stress in the metal...and...well..bad gunsmiths.

There's too much rediculousness in this post to even go to the trouble to reply!

That's ditto for many of your posts too!!

I have an idea. This thread has gone on for five pages and a few thousand reads. There's a chance this will work.

How about those of us who give a crap about this, commit to donating to the good cause. I'll start and pledge $25 towards a new LW50 barrel for RC, installed by a gunsmith who feels qualified with LW50 barrels, with the understanding that we have a full report on the progress and results.

Of course RC gets to choose the cartridge, but also of course I would vote for damn near anything but a 264WM.

I'm puttin money where my mouth is. It would be worth it - every penny - to see this through to a good outcome.

KB

Thanks, but I will never use a LW again even if it's free after this experience.

Remarkable what bad customer service will do, huh?

Good luck with your rifle KB!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Thanks, but I will never use a LW again even if it's free after this experience.

Remarkable what bad customer service will do, huh?

Funny, but I have the opposite experience. Great barrels, great groups, and good customer service.

I have quite a few LW barrels on quite a few really different rifles from one another and equally different calibers. They are all one holers too. Another interesting fact is I shoot cast with LW barrel and they perform that equally as well. Of course I don't you the gunsmiths that you do.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Thanks, but I will never use a LW again even if it's free after this experience.

I am truely sad to read that RC. I have no doubt about you being a good guy. Why? Because you like labs.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Thanks, but I will never use a LW again even if it's free after this experience.

Remarkable what bad customer service will do, huh?

Funny, but I have the opposite experience. Great barrels, great groups, and good customer service.

I have quite a few LW barrels on quite a few really different rifles from one another and equally different calibers. They are all one holers too. Another interesting fact is I shoot cast with LW barrel and they perform that equally as well. Of course I don't you the gunsmiths that you do.

Smokin',

You really need to start using the hillbilly in your posts!

LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Good luck with your rifle KB!

Thanks for the thought RC.

I may be dreaming, but truthfully, I'm hopeing that luck plays a very small role, if at all, in the outcome of my project.

I also hope that I can report a favorable outcome. As I've said on several occasions, if it won't shoot Sierras, that's a pretty good clue that it won't shoot nuthin.

It just so happens that I have a few hundred 220 gr Sierra 8mm bullets, and at least 200 Sierra 200 gr 8mm matchking bullets, and plenty of H4350 powder, and a set of custom dies, and 200 pieces of new Norma brass.

The action is a CZ 550 that was a 7 mag, and it's been lapped and trued. The barreled action will be glass bedded into a factory CZ walnut stock, free-float the barrel ahead of the shank. The combo has no excuse for less than excellent performance.

KB

I'm sure it will come out fine!

BTW, I had the same thought with the Sierras. Most of the development I did was with the 140 gr Game King just to try to get it to shoot!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I expect any custom barrel from any of the well known manufacturers to shoot well. I also expect them to replace them if they don't.

With all the variables that go into installing a barrel and all the other variables involved how does one prove that the barrel as delivered from the maker is the problem?

Just what is a reasonable expectation of shooting well?

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I expect any custom barrel from any of the well known manufacturers to shoot well. I also expect them to replace them if they don't.

With all the variables that go into installing a barrel and all the other variables involved how does one prove that the barrel as delivered from the maker is the problem?

Just what is a reasonable expectation of shooting well?

When I buy a barrel from Shilen, if it don't shoot well they simply replace it and no questions asked. Shilen assumes I know what I'm doing and simply takes my word for it.

I set the standard and they live by it.

Try that with LW!

quote:

Originally posted by gasgunner:
We have 3 full time people in the shop including myself as well as a part timer from time to time. ..

Thank you for the response. Still seems like a whole lot of work to get that many out in a year with 3.5 people.

Best of luck to you all.

quote:

Originally posted by rolltop:

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I expect any custom barrel from any of the well known manufacturers to shoot well. I also expect them to replace them if they don't.

With all the variables that go into installing a barrel and all the other variables involved how does one prove that the barrel as delivered from the maker is the problem?

Just what is a reasonable expectation of shooting well?

When I buy a barrel from Shilen, if it don't shoot well they simply replace it and no questions asked. Shilen assumes I know what I'm doing and simply takes my word for it.

I set the standard and they live by it.

Try that with LW!

More then likely because Shilen has become a mass produced barrel. They are everywhere, Midway, Brownells, I'm surprised they haven't showed up on the shelves of local Walmarts. I guess if he sets a factory up in China they will show up at Walmart.

I have done a bit of business with John. He is first class all the way. He turns out great product and always has time to help you out with proven loads etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by gasgunner:
We have 3 full time people in the shop including myself as well as a part timer from time to time. ..

Thank you for the response. Still seems like a whole lot of work to get that many out in a year with 3.5 people.

Best of luck to you all.

A little provokative one could say that a mfg. that replaces a barrelblank without any questions, either sells way overpricer mediocre barrels, or werry well know that they don't belive in their own QC. And find it mutch easier and cheaper to let the gunsmith waste another couple of hours replacing the job he did.
On high quality blanks more than 95% of the problems is related to not so perfect instalation condition. (ridgidnes of recievers, bedding, symetric lockin and so on.)

The risk of getting a bad barrel is mutch lower if you install the barrel on feks. a Tikka action, compared to if you install the same qty of barrels on manny other actions

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
A little provokative one could say that a mfg. that replaces a barrelblank without any questions, either sells way overpricer mediocre barrels, or werry well know that they don't belive in their own QC. And find it mutch easier and cheaper to let the gunsmith waste another couple of hours replacing the job he did.
On high quality blanks more than 95% of the problems is related to not so perfect instalation condition. (ridgidnes of recievers, bedding, symetric lockin and so on.)

The risk of getting a bad barrel is mutch lower if you install the barrel on feks. a Tikka action, compared to if you install the same qty of barrels on manny other actions

BINGO!!!!! That's why I feel that way about Shilen barrels...he sells them everywhere and they are always in stock at those places. They can't be that GREAT mass produced at that fast rate. Now he use to make a really great barrel. I think all the great barrel makers had something to prove back in the old days...today it's ALL about money.

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
A little provocative one could say that a mfg. that replaces a barrel blank without any questions, either sells way overpriced mediocre barrels, or very well know that they don't believe in their own QC.

Or it could simply be a way of ensuring customer loyalty. The most loyal customer is not one who has never had a problem but one who has experienced a problem and had it satisfactorily resolved.

Could also be the sign of a specific well know customer who is trusted to not take advantage of the trust placed in him.

So, about this customer service thing. I think it's a bit bigger than merely considering the replacment of a barrel every now and then, whether it wouldn't shoot period, or whether it got messed up after it left the mfg.

Seems to me that the investment and start-up on a successful barrel making business, entering and even staying in the field, in the US, would be difficult, expensive and have a lot at stake. Obviously, customer relations are a significant key factor. Letting the winners of BR or other competitive guys paw through some select inventory isn't customer relations, it's PR and advertising.

Guess who is really the "customer", who drives the process? It ain't me, or folks like me. It's the gunsmiths, and the guys who have the big operations, doing 3000 barrels a year. That's where the money is, and the rule of follow the money, is real. If a barrel maker can get a contract, with significant quantities, then he is in business. If a barrel maker has to rely on selling one barrel at a time, to guys like me, well I have concerns for his business being a going concern, if you understand my pun.

Along those lines, I'm wondering what other international, or foriegn, barrel maker has their products for sale in the US, besides LW? I'm sorta sure that the US companys, would just rather that LW stay home.

From the "customer's" point of view, it's generally accepted that competition is a good thing. Well, perhaps it depends on who the "customer" is. If I have a variety of barrel makers, with a variety of products to choose from, perhaps that's a different scenerio, than the way gunsmiths view it.

After all, I'm not the one who has to satisfy anyone but myself with the rifle. I'm not the one relying in some cases 1950's technology and machinery to get the jobe done. I'm not the one who has to worry about wear and tear on my equipment, or learn proper technique to get er done. I'm not the one who has to worry about the life of a carbide button or cutting tool, or employee time, or the life of a CNC machine.

I'm not the one who has to worry about market share. The folks who do worry about that, in my experience, have a few tricks up their corporate sleeves. Say a company enters the US market, with vast experience and many years in the business, internationally, with a unique product, which may be interesting and useful to guys like me. Well, use your imagination. Consider the resources and stamina it would take to withstand the creative onslaught of BS and corporate propaganda. Nothing less than a big international company could survive it.

I'm certainly not sure about all this, and have no inside connections. I just sorta have a sense about how these things work.

Just food for thought, for those who are interested.

Consider also why the steel formula for generally all US barrel makers, has such emphasis on machinability, (the old fashioned way) rather than durability. It ain't me or guys like me driving that. It is so convenient to blame a barrel with different characteristics for the "problem". Maybe it just requires a little thinking out of the box.

So, in an earlier post, it was probably best said - there's a lot more to it than just drilling a hole in a piece of steel.

KB

KB,

Why are your posts so damn wide, can't you fix it so it fits in with everyone else's?

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
KB,

Why are your posts so damn wide, can't you fix it so it fits in with everyone else's?

Oh, you said wide, not wild. I misunderstood for a moment.

I don't know what you mean? Out of the margins perhaps? Literally or metaphorically speaking?

KB

Yes out of margin like you posted a big picture that takes up a lot of width.

That's odd. They appear normal on my screens.

I'm thinking it's an administrator question, and suspect your computer, or monitor.

Sorry about that. If I knew how to fix it, I would.

KB