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I've seen several threads on the LW barrels on this forum, and tried back searching, but couldn't quickly find the appropriate one to tag onto. So, I'll start a fresh one. I got an email today from one of my gunsmiths about the stainless LW barrel he tried to thread and chamber. I won't say the gunsmith's name because I didn't pre-approve this post with him, and there is no need for names. Many of you know him, and respect him, and so do I. He has a good reputation, and very experienced, and has done several good jobs for me. Here's a partial quote: From gunsmith: "We tried to chamber the barrel for the 323 today and gave up. The barrel is a piece of crap. It will not thread or chamber without leaving deep scores in the bore. We tried different speeds and different threading oils but with no luck. It might make a good pry bar. Let me know what you want to do?" My reply: "I was hopeing at first that you were joking. I'm not too surprised, since I've heard this before. But this is the first time first-hand, from a source I considered reliable. If the reamer is still good, I have a substitute barrel. Talk to you later. Regards," From gunsmith: "This is the worst piece of steel I’ve ever come across. It was a mess to work with from the start. I don’t know why they would use steel like this in a barrel. The reamer is fine and we can do the chambering on a new barrel. What make barrel is the other one that you have?" My reply: "Cautious now, eh? It's a Douglas stainless # 4 contour. Should give you no trouble, and good results. Sorry about the LW. Now we know to not try that again." So, now I have reliable info. What do you guys who have been praising the virtues of LW barrels have to say about this? The reamer discussed is a new custom reamer from PTG, with a removable pilot, which was pretty expensive (for me) since it's a wildcat. I tried emailing Woody today, but the email address on his web page didn't work - probably copied it wrong. Perhaps tomorrow I'll call the number shown there. I can't predict where this may lead to, but as of now, I just lost over $250 in a bad barrel and shipping, and annoyed my gunsmith. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | ||
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Is this the first LW barrel you've had installed by this gunsmith? You probably should have held off on making this post until you have the barrel makers side of things. They have a pretty good reputation too. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Hi, I agree with Westpac. Posting this experience prior to having a discussion with Lothar Walther is a bit premature. Too many factors involved in the process to declare a culprit this early. Discretion in your chat with LW may result in reimbursement of your expenses. Would you do us all the favor of following up with your discovery after talking with LW, we may all benefit, eh? Luck, Stephen | |||
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Europeans have always said US barrels are way too soft. Some gunsmiths over there actually laugh at our barrels. My friends, who are gunsmiths, typically wrap a sheet of oiled paper around reamers when chambering hard ones. They also use Castrol Moly Dee cutting oil exclusively when doing a hard barrel with a paper wrapped reamer. I am not saying that will work in your particular case; it may be an extra hard barrel and a reamer on the soft side. There are tolerances and mistakes can also be made. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Is this the first LW SS barrel your smith has worked on? | |||
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There is nearly no reason for it to not take a thread. I'm not going to doubt your smith but there are things that can be done to get threads on the most uncooperative piece of steel. 410 and 416 are very good grades of stainless and are relatively easy to machine compared to some other grades of stainless. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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As airgun says, so are Lw barrels considder to be made of better/harder stell than many us barrels for instance. I have never meet a gunsmit in sweden that cant cut a LW barrel..to my knovledge anyway ? In fact most gunsmits use them without problems overhere. | |||
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I have personally threaded & chambered over 100 LW barrels & NEVER had a problem machining them. I cut chambers from 240 to 450 RPM depending on chamber & shoulder configuration. I use TAP MAGIC CUTTING FLUID TAP MAJIC exclusivly when machining all SS barrels not just LW. The key word here is CUTTING FLUID not THREADING OIL. Perhaps your smith wants/needs a soft barrel to work with? Of course a soft barrel wouldn't last long either huh? I think he might be trying to cover up his inability to correctly machine a quality steel. TAP MAGIC XTRA-THICK EXTREME PERFORMANCE HEAVYWEIGHT CUTTING FLUID FOR THE HARDEST METALS Virtually eliminates work hardening. Ideal for inconel, titanium, stainless and hardened steels. Highly effective on any metal up to 45 RC! A single application stays with the tool for cuts of long duration, all the way to the bottom of most holes. Clinging action makes this cutting fluid great for lathes and mill work, since fluid stays on the work piece during high-speed rotation  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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The LW-50 (this is what Lothar Walther call the SS barrel steel they use)is a lot more difficult to machine than the steel most US barrelmakers use. I had problems chambering the LW-50 with same rpms I use in US SS barrels but when I used rpms around 260-300 the HSS reamers cut good chambers with good surface and no chatter. I still have problems crowning LW-50 perfectly though..... Any ideas on a good way to crown LW-50? _____________________________________________ The bitter taste of poor quality stays in the mouth far longer than the sweet taste of the low price! | |||
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Exactly what SS do they use ? LW says their's is much better than 416R .So is it just 416 or a PH SS ? | |||
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Good advice. Thanks Yesterday, I was pretty annoyed with the situation. This morning I spoke with Woody, who was very informative as usual. He was also polite and helpful, and suggested that the barrel and reamer be sent to him to see if it could be salvaged. We had the std conversation about RPM and such. There's too many details to get into, most of which would not serve the point of this posting. I suggest that if anyone wants the straight info on any technical aspect of LW barrels, just call Woody, or PM one of the gunsmiths here who has real experience with LW barrels. Since so many have in the past shown a love for speculation, I am happy to see that hasn't blown up - yet. That's why I posted this in gunsmithing. Hopefully there are enough true professionals here to keep the crap in check. I also called the gunsmith, who agreed to call Woody, and work it out. Regards, KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I've never had a piece of steel (that wasn't seriously hardened) that I couldn't thread.....or drill or ream.... I've had aluminum that was so soft that it was very difficult to tap and machine but never one too hard!....but we're talking steel... In this case I'd be tempted to not believe your smith....please don't be offended as I'm not claiming anything except that my own experience is contrary to everything your smith has said....and there are most certainly gunsmiths out there that have no business hanging up a shingle!....and BTW, I've never cut a LW barrel.....but don't have to to make this post. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I'm trying to not make this a matter of who you believe or not believe. The gunsmith reported his experience, plain and simple. What's not to believe? Now, his stated opinion based on that experience may not be correct, and certainly arguable. Based on discussions before the job started, I got the impression that he felt the same way as you do "I've never had a piece of steel (that wasn't seriously hardened) that I couldn't thread.....or drill or ream...." Obviously something changed his mind. As I recall, this is not a new dilemma. Let's keep it in the realm of a learning experience for now. This has every potential to have a very good outcome, and a win-win-win, for everyone involved. I have full expectation that this will turn out well. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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This thread should be moved from the "Gunsmithing" forum to the "Jumping the Gun" forum. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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Frankly, it's been a long time in the making. And now has potential to find resolution, at least in my book, and probably/perhaps for others. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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17-4. | |||
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I think that's the same forum that Ray Atkinson posts on.....it's much too busy to move it there!!!!  /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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The LW50 barrels are very similar to 17-4. If you don't use the right cutting oil and higher feeds and speed it will eat your lunch. They have a tendency to work harden if you don't get after it. I believe they have 400 series stainless also. Butch | |||
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That's what I thought .Then it will machine very differently from 416R or 4140 !  | |||
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I've threaded and chambered a few LW50 barrels and I did talk to Woody before doing so. He did mention higher speeds and feeds, along with a thinner cutting oil. Also mentioned a muzzle flush system is preferred. In chambering them, I found the threads cut easily and were very clean. The chambering was a little different. The steel seemed to tear easily, but you definitely couldn't feed slowly, you do have to 'get after it' as was mentioned. Chambering was easy enough, but after it was completed the surface finish was not great. 1000 RPM and a dowel with 320 grit paper and it looked as good as any other after 5-10 seconds of polishing. Shoot straight, shoot often. Matt | |||
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Very interesting thread for me. I've used several LW bbls in the past and always had splendid results with great accuracy and no problems encountered, so I was puzzled by the negative comments of some respected smiths. But I was using LW CM barrels, not stainless. It seems that maybe, just maybe, the problems were with the LW stainless and not the CM. Comments? Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I remember those posts, especially on past threads, and they puzzled me too. The posts often didn't make clear distinction of which barrel steel or whether the barrel was one of those pre-chambered/threaded CM. Each barrel type will obviously give vastly differing gunsmithing experience or issues. Posting stuff off-topic, or as though the poster hadn't read or understood the previous posts. Reading such a thread (in the past) became very confusing, and mixed up, and contained a great amount of guessing and speculation, flat out wrong info, and finally of no use. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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You never did answer Westpac's question. What actually was the point of this thread? | |||
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Ok, I'll read between the lines and answer the questions asked, and hopefully the questions intended as well.  Yes, this is the first LW barrel I've had installed by this gunsmith. It's also the first LW barrel I've had installed by any gunsmith. It's also the first LW barrel installed, or attempet to install, by this gunsmith for anyone. But, this gunsmith or his shop has installed hundreds of barrels, other than LW, for customers who are mostly hunters like me. The point of this post? In my view, the word "was" isn't correct. The question is: What is the point of this post? First, the point has not yet been fulfilled, and it may change as it progresses. However, the initial point was and still is to get to the bottom of some old lingering issues and questions on LW barrels. I have read a lot of stuff on the subject that IMO just has to be crap, but I'm no expert or technician, so in many ways I can't sort it out. Off the top, I find it hard to believe that a company as big and well respected in Euro and elsewhere would offer bad barrels in the USA. That's why I didn't just dump the five LW barrels on GB. I plan on using them. So, I send one to a qualified gunsmith, along with a new, sharp reamer, and low and behold, the problems previously described crop up. Now the point is also to correct that problem where no one is harmed. This also open up some possibilities of clearing up this apparant disparity between what Euro gunsmiths and US gunsmiths expect from their barrels. So, it ain't about the money. It's about clearing up old issues, and a learning experience for me and as many others as can benefit. It's going out on a limb a little, but I'm estimating from the info I have and common sense that it ain't the barrel that's the problem. The issue is that I don't know for sure, and apparantly there are many others in the same shoes, and I intend to sort it out, and hopefully end up with a darn good shooting 323 Hollis, wearing a SS LW barrel, as initially intended. Another thing, the main thing, the point is not about blame, or simply identifying a "problem". It's about finding solutions, and learning something useful. I clearly think at this time that a big win-win-win is burried treasure in this topic, and not just for me, but for all. As implied, I don't think there is a problem with this that can't be fixed. And I don't think the "problem" is technical, but instead misinformation or misunderstanding. I can't fix technical, but I can "get after it", before it work hardens,  with info and understanding. For example, if only one good thing came out of this, such as gunsmiths who have no previous experience with LW SS barrel blanks, could learn a thing or two from those who have success with LW barrels, and avoid the dilemma I (the customer) am in now, that would be good. But I think there is lots more there. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I may have taken the original post in a different light than others, but I did not think that you were slamming LW. I could see that you were looking for answers. My take on the issue: "The Facts" LW does use different stainless steel than most other manufactures(LW acknowledges this.) LW advises that their barrels require different machining set-ups than other barrels(feed speed and RPMs) Many people machine LW barrels following LW's instructions and have good results. My "opinions" Many gunsmiths, after spending years perfecting their chambering and threading methods, are loath to change anything when a barrel made of some "newfangeled" steel comes across their bench. After all, "It's worked on the last 1,000 barrels I've done." The problems you describe could be caused by work-hardening. SS is prone to work hardening. LW's methods seem to be designed with an eye towards lessening the chances of work hardening. My final opinion: nothing pisses off a talented craftsman(in any craft) more than some "fancy new space-aged" component that makes them look like a fool when the fail to get it installed. -IME 99% of the time the craftsman, having ruined the part, will then badmouth it as total "POS" and ask: "why in the hell would the idiots have built it that way!?". This sure sounds like what happened in your situation. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I've already learned good info on the speeds & feeds required for the LW SS barrels. It would probably not have occurred to me to double my chambering speed, for instance, MUCH LESS my threading speed! Of course since I don't use stainless barrels the point is probably moot for me. But I AM glad to find some sort of logical explanation for the LW bad rep, I definitely like their CM barrels. BTW as mentioned before, your new sharp reamer may actually be TOO sharp! If I get chatter with a new reamer then I LIGHTLY run a fine Arkansas stone over the cutting edges. LIGHTLY! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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One thing I've gained from this thread is that from now on if a customer sends me a barrel and I screw it up, I'm not paying for a new one. For those 2 or 3 out there that I've bought replacement barrels for over the past 7 years, consider yourselves lucky! John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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I've had an some experience with Lothar Walter Barrels and Woody. I'll leave out some of the names to protect the innocent, but here is my experience; take it FWIW...It's the truth and nothing but the truth. I had a .22-250 re-barreled with a LW and a custom .264 WM built with LW barrels. Both the L-50 stainless version by the same gunsmith. The .22-250 came back and shot well. All in all I was happy and looking forward to the custom .264 Win Mag's return. I received it and started in on load development. It was very finnicky and I've heard the .264 is finnicky. I put about 400 down the bore with decent results but still not consistent. While cleaning the barrel I noticed resistence to the patch in a certain area of the bore about 6" in front of the chamber. Sounded like the patch was being "grabbed" and tearing almost. I took it to my local gunsmith who I've known for 25 years; he builds fine rifles and recently built the rifle of the gentleman who won the F Class National Championship. He is qualified with an impeccable reputation... He scoped the bore and found a section of the bore where I described it where the lands looked exactly like the cutting surface of a metal file to me. Rougher than hell. He described it as "Nasty!" I sent the gun back out of state to the builder who obtained another barrel from LW, this time a CM version. I find this amazing that he was able to get another without paying for it and you'll soon see why. Well, things went very very slowly as sometimes they do with "gunsmith time". From the start of the order to this point was 2 years. I got pissed off and told him to send me the two rifles he was working on back to me no matter what stage of work he was at. I was to have my friend finish the work. The stage of the work was pitiful and things needed to be fixed. He threaded the barrel before chambering it and the threading was sloppy, had to be cut off and done properly. My gunsmith also had never worked with a LW barrel and even the CM version proved to be the hardest steel he had encountered. He thought it would have a good long life. I picked it up and started development. It wouldn't shoot at all through 250 rounds of load development. 1 1/2" groups at 100. Bought factory ammo and it grouped the same. Took it to my smith and he could find nothing wrong with any of the work, bedding etc... . His conclusion was that the barrel just won't shoot and that the only solution was to rebarrel. Since I was the one who supplied it, it was up to me to either get one from LW or go with the folks he uses. This is where things got sticky. I called LW and spoke to Woody about the problem. We went round and round for days. He would not replace the barrel. We finally came to the agreement that I was to send the rifle to him for inspection and they would see what they could do with it. In his words "We have made ALL BARRELS shoot well." Of course he found that my gunsmith's work was not up to par  He wanted to rechamber and recrown which took him 4 months. They shot some groups with the rest of the 50$ box of factory ammo I sent with the gun that they felt were satisfactory. The barrel was now 23". How they shot the groups was a complete joke, making sight adjustments into the bullseye after EVERY SHOT instead of shooting groups with the same point of aim when it was on paper. He called it "walking it in"  I got it back and it was a total piece of junk. Pressure at the STARTING LOAD I had previously worked and anemic velocity... Oh, and ABSOLUTELY PITIFUL ACCURACY. I shot 10 shells and immediately took it to my gunsmith for a good barrel to be installed, a Brux. He says he has never had an issue getting a barrel that a customer was unsatisfied with replaced from any of the manufacturers he deals with. All it takes is a phone call. This experience solidified his and my thought of never even considering a Lothar Walther barrel for future builds. I'm with your gunsmith. I will heat this POS LW, bend it into a pretzel, and send it back. | |||
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If the SS LW uses for the barrels requires machining processes that differs from other types of SS one would think that they would/should advise their customers. You know, something like "Instructions for machining LW SS barrels". | |||
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I have to say it ain't rocket science! I am a rank amateur, not a machinist or a gunsmith. I successfully threaded and chambered an L-W LW-50 barrel for my 7-08. It didn't cut as nice and pretty as a Remington SS barrel I reworked but it came out fine. I haven't got any one hole groups with it yet but the rifle shoots under an inch with a few different loads without any special effort. If I can do it a professional should be able to do it. I also installed an L-W CM barrel on my 264 WM. I am still working with that one. I am not satisfied with accuracy so far but I don't have very many rounds through it yet. I hope it turns out better than rcamuglia's 264! | |||
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I hope so too! I'll keep you posted on the Brux rebarrel as soon as I get it finished. | |||
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I'm going to presume that you are jokeing, unless corrected. However, there are a couple of things of interest from your post. First - like ALL other humans I know of, we sometimes screw up. Like MOST, we make it right if possible. So, I'm not too worried about the making it right part, IN THEORY. If my gunsmith screwed up, so what? I believe he is the kind of guy who will make it right, so at this stage, I don't even need to ask that basic question. What I do need to discuss is by what means and path this making it right business goes. Where this could go wrong is, out of his hands, he relinquishes the commitment to making it right. Having provided the barrel makes it somewhat fall on me, but I'm not clear on how heavy that fall is. Obviously, I do not want to have a repeat experience similar to rcamuglia's. I would rather scrap the LW barel now, and just use the Douglas barrel, and move on. Again, this is the dilemma - there are so many widly varying reports, that I can't predict the outcome, and it's difficult to decide how to proceed. This is unfinished business, so I think I'll make a phone call or two. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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When you call Woody, you will feel my pain.  | |||
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Going back a few post…Whoever got the bright idea that LW has anything similar to 17-4 needs their glasses checked. That is a total stab in the dark. Probably to make some point or other in a misleading internet “chat” Since 1994 LW has only used LW50 as their stainless steel for all commercial sales. Its nowhere near 17-4 and has never been . | |||
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Good to know you will not stand behind your work. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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That was probably tongue in cheek. It is hard to tell on the internet with no voice inflection or body language. Blake | |||
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I've heard nothing but good about John Farner here in Abq. My long time friend and gunsmith speaks well of him and his work. | |||
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He has my admiration and respect as well. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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