quote:

Originally posted by gasgunner:
I buy about 3000 barrels a year. Mostly Wilson, Krieger, Pac-Nor, and Shilen, but I have used barrels from most of the US barrel makers, including L-W. I have stuck with Wilson, Krieger, Shilen, and Pac-Nor because when I have a problem with any one of there barrels, I send the barrel back, and they either send me a new one, or give me a credit on my next order. No BS, no excuses, no crap about special steel, not nothing, just a take care of the customer attitude. I think these barrel makers represent the best in there respective price ranges. Anyone can make a good barrel. But only a few barrel makers can run a decent business.

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Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
I haven't measured any LW 8mm barrels, but I CAN tell you that many Euro 8mm barrels have dimensions that are all over the map. Deep grooves of up to 0.328" are quite common in the older barrels, for instance. This is true of not only the military Mausers and 1888 Commission rifles but also the Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1908s I've measured as well. I haven't paid much attention to the bore diameters, only the grooves, and all the ones I fired seemed to group fine with no unusual pressure or lack-of-pressure signs. I figured that the deep grooves were a carryover from the black and semi-smokeless days and paid no further attention.

My point is that LW may be using the deep grooves which would require a smaller 8mm bore diameter, fitting in with the tight bore observation. A chamber/bore cast will tell the tale.
Regards, Joe

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Originally posted by rcamuglia:

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Notice I did not say that you didn't know the difference between a rough bore and heavy surplus powder fouling

Notice I said I actually saw the bore with a bore scope.

quote:

Originally posted by gasgunner:
I buy about 3000 barrels a year. Mostly Wilson, Krieger, Pac-Nor, and Shilen, but I have used barrels from most of the US barrel makers, including L-W. I have stuck with Wilson, Krieger, Shilen, and Pac-Nor because when I have a problem with any one of there barrels, I send the barrel back, and they either send me a new one, or give me a credit on my next order. No BS, no excuses, no crap about special steel, not nothing, just a take care of the customer attitude. I think these barrel makers represent the best in there respective price ranges. Anyone can make a good barrel. But only a few barrel makers can run a decent business.

John

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Originally posted by SmokinJ:

Only thing I agree with is that back in those days the rifling depth did seem to wander quite a bit.

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Originally posted by Kabluewy:

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Originally posted by SmokinJ:

Only thing I agree with is that back in those days the rifling depth did seem to wander quite a bit.

So, what's your opinion, these days, on a groove depth of .012"?

KB

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Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

Only thing I agree with is that back in those days the rifling depth did seem to wander quite a bit.

So, what's your opinion, these days, on a groove depth of .012"?

KB

Aut vincere aut mori

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Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

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Originally posted by SmokinJ:

Only thing I agree with is that back in those days the rifling depth did seem to wander quite a bit.

We realize that but a groove depth of .006 today is deep.

So, what's your opinion, these days, on a groove depth of .012"?

KB

Depth is actually only half the difference between the lands and grooves.

.308-.300=.008/2=.004 the rifling is only .004" high.

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Originally posted by SmokinJ:

We realize that but a groove depth of .006 today is deep.

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Originally posted by butchlambert:
SJ,
What are you smokin? What barrels do you like?
I think you will find the quality of Shilen barrels is considerably better than 3 years ago. They are the hottest barrels made for rimfire right now. Maybe you ought to have your gunsmith order you one.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Depending on how a .264 WM is throated, it will digest about 80 grains of WC-872 pushing a 140 grain bullet. One with a SAAMI zero-leade throat might take a bit less, while one throated to seat a 140 graier all the way out to the 3.6" length of some magazines may take as much as 82 grains, which is about all of the WC-872 you can get in a once-fired .264 case.

Regardless of throat, I sincerely doubt that you could get enough WC-872 into a .264 case to reach 75,000 PSI, short of something like jamming a monometal bullet into the lands.

Lots of surplus powders do vary, so my experience with WC-872 may not exactly match that of someone working with another lot. Both WC-872 and WC-860 (again, in the lots I've worked with) are substantially slower than anything sold as H-870, or its stick stablemate, H-570. WC-872 works quite well with both the .264 and 7mm STW, and should be excellent in the 7mm RUM, and the .300-378 WBY. Agreed, powders vary in behavior with the size of the case, the bore, and the sectional density of the projectile; however I've found WC-872 to be quite predictable and well-mannered in all the applications I've used it in.

Faster powders in the .264 are potential bombs which can exhibit pressure excursions without warning when the charge is increased incrementally. I've owned a .264 since 1964 and have worked with a number of them. Incidentally, my 1964 vintage .264 has a throat that looks like alligator hide for the first inch in front of the chamber. It also never turns in a group as larg as an inch.

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Originally posted by rcamuglia:
"Please do go on using your slow surplus powders."

Obviously smokin', you've never loaded for the .264 WM. For your customer's sake, I hope you are a better gunsmith than a ballistician.

Here's a .264 WM refresher course from The Expert:

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Depending on how a .264 WM is throated, it will digest about 80 grains of WC-872 pushing a 140 grain bullet. One with a SAAMI zero-leade throat might take a bit less, while one throated to seat a 140 graier all the way out to the 3.6" length of some magazines may take as much as 82 grains, which is about all of the WC-872 you can get in a once-fired .264 case.

Regardless of throat, I sincerely doubt that you could get enough WC-872 into a .264 case to reach 75,000 PSI, short of something like jamming a monometal bullet into the lands.

Lots of surplus powders do vary, so my experience with WC-872 may not exactly match that of someone working with another lot. Both WC-872 and WC-860 (again, in the lots I've worked with) are substantially slower than anything sold as H-870, or its stick stablemate, H-570. WC-872 works quite well with both the .264 and 7mm STW, and should be excellent in the 7mm RUM, and the .300-378 WBY. Agreed, powders vary in behavior with the size of the case, the bore, and the sectional density of the projectile; however I've found WC-872 to be quite predictable and well-mannered in all the applications I've used it in.

Faster powders in the .264 are potential bombs which can exhibit pressure excursions without warning when the charge is increased incrementally. I've owned a .264 since 1964 and have worked with a number of them. Incidentally, my 1964 vintage .264 has a throat that looks like alligator hide for the first inch in front of the chamber. It also never turns in a group as larg as an inch.

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Originally posted by butchlambert:
Got your goat!
Butch

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Obviously RC, you don't know me. Hey at least my gunsmith or myself don't screw up my barrels.

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Originally posted by gasgunner:
I buy about 3000 barrels a year. ...

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Originally posted by Hot Core:

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Originally posted by gasgunner:
I buy about 3000 barrels a year. ...

With normal Vacations and weekends, thats over 10 barrel installations a day.

How many GunSmiths do you have in your Shop?

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Originally posted by rcamuglia:
My smith had no trouble chambering the LW barrel. His only comments to me were about the barrel steel being harder than he has seen and the barrel being out of spec dimensionally.

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Originally posted by kcstott:
Hardness is not the issue.

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Originally posted by gasgunner:
RC, I was fortunate to have some customers furnish me with LW barrel blanks before I spent any of my money on them. After borescoping these barrels I made the decision not to go with them. About the same time some others resellers were pushing LW barrels to the highpower crowd and I began hearing reports about the performance of those barrels which further reinforced my decision not to use them.

Kabluewy, yes there were advertising some special steel at the time. I do not recall having to make any big adjustments to my process. I do use carbide tooling for most operations if that makes a difference.

I think I'm drug into this about as far as I want to go. I wish Woody and LW all the best, and those of you who like LW barrels should continue to use them.

John

quote:

Originally posted by gasgunner:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by gasgunner:
I buy about 3000 barrels a year. ...

With normal Vacations and weekends, thats over 10 barrel installations a day.

How many GunSmiths do you have in your Shop?

We build AR-15 barrels primarily, with a few T2K and AR-10 barrels thrown in for good measure. We buy blanks then contour, thread, chamber, etc. About half get built into uppers, the rest go out as just barrels. Actually more work than installing a barrel on a bolt gun as we have gas ports to drill and other features to machine.
This,

makes the contouring go pretty quickly.

We have 3 full time people in the shop including myself as well as a part timer from time to time.

I do not want to make this a plug, so I will not mention the name of our company, but those interested can figure it out pretty easily. The only point I was trying to make is that we do not have time to go round and round with our suppliers and listen to a bunch of BS. If we have a problem with something, we need to know that our supplier is going to take care of it in an efficient timely manner. Putting a good hole in the middle of a bar of steel is just one criteria of a good barrel maker for my money.

John

Oh, and how many working gunsmiths get normal vacations and weekends?

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Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
My smith had no trouble chambering the LW barrel. His only comments to me were about the barrel steel being harder than he has seen and the barrel being out of spec dimensionally.

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Originally posted by kcstott:
Hardness is not the issue.

Ok,
Hardness is not the issue.

Specs are not the issue.

Not providing a second replacment barrel, priceless.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I guess it boils down too who messed up RC's LW barrel. The barrel should have been inspected...and not touched in any way....before installing it on the action. Once it's touched, it's not LW's responsibility anymore and I believe someone said something to that effect about PAC NOR not doing anything with one of their barrels being fired. I'll add machined and fired.

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I think PacNor's policy on that is a good one, for all involved. I have had a barrel replaced by PacNor, no problem. But, I didn't go back to the trough a second time (second replacment) for a third barrel . That would probably test the good nature of those fine folks at PacNor.

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Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I guess it boils down too who messed up RC's LW barrel. The barrel should have been inspected...and not touched in any way....before installing it on the action. Once it's touched, it's not LW's responsibility anymore and I believe someone said something to that effect about PAC NOR not doing anything with one of their barrels being fired. I'll add machined and fired.

The barrel was not messed up by anyone. It simply was a barrel incapable of accuracy. LW chambered and crowned it with the same lame accuracy results, except worse.