looking to build a 257 roberts on a mauser action. wonder what everone's experience has been with Adams and bennett barrels-this gun will be a light recoil hunting gun for my daughters when they get old enough to use it-one is 2 yrs old and the other is 3 months old, so there is PLENTY of time! I imagine a Douglas barrel is if better quality and "you get what you pay for" but is the douglas really woth 2-3 times as the Adam and Bennett?

Dave

I have a .308 and a 22-250 with Adams andBennett barrels, With the right load the .308 is a tac driver. With the best load the 22-250 will only do an inch and a half.

For hunting accuracy ,just based on these two, it looks to be acceptable.

I would suggest that if you go with the A&B barrel you shoot perhaps 200 rounds before you take it hunting.

The .257 is a good choice for a youngster or an oldster like me. roger

Dave,

My first rifle project a few years back was a 257 Roberts. I used an AB barrel and enjoy excellent accuracy with factory loads.

In my opinion, they should redesign their contours. The F14 is good but an inch too short (21") The F34 is essentially everyone elses #4 with very little parallel section at the breech. Too heavy for a 257 and I had a bit of trouble getting the barrel vice to grip.

For a youngster, especially a girl. the smaller F14 barrel would be great for a light carbine. You might also consider their 243 barrel and ream it out to 6mm Rem.

Best regards,

Dan

The A & B barrels have required visual inspection before installing. I've found some pitted ID bores and returned them......all in all I find them to be good shooters. This is also true of Shaw barrels a little better barrel IMO because I prefer their lighter contours. Shaw is a fine barrel IMO and will install and blue to your action reasonably priced.

You don't need to spend a lot on a barrel to achieve good accuracy. Properly done these will get you 1" groups. Improperly done even the most expensive barrel will get you nothing.

Dave..I have a 257rbts that I built with an A&B barrel and it shot so well that I sold you my Ruger 257 Roberts. I also have an A&B barrel on my 35Whelen and it shoots great. I think the A&B barrels are a pretty good value for what you pay.

You will see some negative comments for sure..but my experience and the experience of several of my friends that regularly use A&B barrels has all been positive.

A couple of my rifles (280AI & 338-06AI) have ER Shaw barrels, and they shoot fine as well.

Z

z-man, good to see ya! Y'all making your yearly Texas trip this year?

I just finished a 98 in 257 Rob. Used the AB in F14. It shoots quite well and I'm getting 2800 fps with Sierra 117's and 46 grs of 4350. I used an F34 for a 7x57 onetime and was not at all happy with the profile, it's really a heavy sporter rather than a medium.

so far of the 4-5 A&B bbls i've used, all will shoot under 1.5" at 100 yds w/ load development consisting of "i want to use this bullet. what's a good load w/ appropriate Re powder". as noted however, a&b contours are NOT light weight. i'd say for 35 whelen definitely, possibly 338-06, but anything above that they're probably abt right on. a 270 i got and a 300 winmag just flat are too large. unless you like heavy barrels, then they're fine. i've got a 257 planned (for abt 2 yrs now; hey, it ain't a race) and i'm not using A&B for that reason, nothing to do w/ accuracy tho.

roger

IMO your better off buying a best quality barrel and be done with it..The barrel is the most important part of a good rifle...YOu may get a good barrel form A&B but lots of them are bad...thats why they are cheap...A douglas is only about $75.00 to a $100 more, money well spent. Think about it! what if the A&B barrel doesn't shoot and you have to start all over.

quote:

so far of the 4-5 A&B bbls i've used, all will shoot under 1.5" at 100 yds

Not very impressive.

This thread was titled a A&B or what? A tent stake?

The cost of the barrel is a small part of getting it installed, if I am going to drop the dollars on a rebarrel, I expect a certain level of performance and 1.5 MOA don't cut it in my book if I had a 7mm or a 30 cal that could only get me that with load development, I would trade it. On a true big bore thats a different story and that would be acceptable with the best of barrels. But 30 cal and down thats a tent stake.

Buy the Douglas if your on a budget, good quality reasonably priced. And they are about 60-70 bucks more expensive than your A&B not 2-3 times check your prices.

Last item to consider is if you put a A&B on a rifle and expect to sell it, your talking action price for resale. I won't give you 5 bucks for a fitted A&B, and I'm not alone on this.

you didn't read what i wrote. i said UNDER and i also said w/ no load developement PERIOD beyond the 1st load i tried. several were under 1" right off the bat. the point was i've not yet had a bad one. if you're after a hunting rifle, sub 1.5" groups if everyone's being honest and realistic is good and most people's rifles factory or otherwise aren't doing that. and a tiny percentage of shooters from field positions at hunting ranges aren't capable of using any more precision than that anyway.

if you're wanting a rifle for target competition or varmints, yeah, that's probably not that great.

Lubbockdave:

Are you planning on doing this yourself or are you going to pay someone else to do it?

If you are paying someone else, then it makes sense to use a little bit better components. Overall the price will not be that much different and you'll have a chance of getting your money (or most of it) back.

If you are doing this yourself then I'd say to go ahead and use whatever you want. Use a milsurp action and wait for midway to have a spring sale on the stock/barrel combo's. You'll be able to get most of your money out of that one too if you do a good job of it.

I've thought about this project too, and have decided when it comes time to build rifles for my children I'll use Lothar Walther pre threaded deep chambered barrels. You can then save the cost of a reamer which brings the price difference down a bit. Another thing, and you may want to think about this too, is that a first rifle is usually held on to for the life of the owner, and if it is a quality rifle has a bigger chance of being passed down and actually used then too.

quote:

i also said w/ no load developement PERIOD beyond the 1st load

My bust on misunderstanding that. I still don't want an A&B on my rifles. I have a barrel being put on right now, the cost of the barrel is a fraction of the installation. I used a Shilen, and an A&B would have saved me a tad over $100.00. Before carding, and blueing, with no iron sights its $400 labor. Not smart value in my book.

Again I would use a Douglas, or better yet keep an eye in the classified posts here. Customsox had several for sale a while back, one was a Krieger, another was a Shilen. All were much cheaper than new.

If I had to work with low end barrels, take a look at Shaw. The same point applies as in my first post though, resale value is bad.

I have bought and installed ( or had installed )a fair amount of barrels over the years, and have a pretty representative collection the the better barrel makers under my belt. And knock on wood I have yet to get a bad one, I want to keep it that way. And don't misunderstand this as a plug for you to buy the most expensive or the best. A Douglas is solid quality, and another would be a Lothar Walther . Walther sells pre threaded mauser barrels at a decent cost point.

I can show you A&B barrels that are good enough and were very cheap

I can show you A&B barrels that are not fit to chamber, but they were cheap

Like buying tools from Harbor Frieght, you can pay your money and take your chances, but I am done gambling with A&B.

i probably should have mentioned several of the one's i did w/ a&b's had peep or open express sights. and i don't shoot much off a bench. sight in or verify sight in then i make myself shoot from kneeling/sitting/standing. and i don't let the bbl cool between shots. thus the groups i've gotten can't be considered representative of anything except each individual gun under those circumstances. which is all i cared abt anyway. i will admit i've likely used the last a&b because a) no decent selection of contours and b) they're really not that cheap any more. a shaw of the contour/lgt of your choice is only a small fraction more expensive. i've always really liked mcgowens bbls and the work they did but i went thru a spate of putting together rifles w/ economy in mind, hence a&b. as far as guns for hunting anything the size of small whitetails or bigger they've been all that was necessary, far more precise than i can use away from a bench rest. but as noted, in the overall cost of a gun, you can spend twice the money on a barrel and still not be spending much percentagewise. especially if you're paying some "qualified professional" to do the work (i don't; i like "my rifles" to be MY rifles, flaws and all).

AB barrels work fine...
bet they sell more than just about anyone else does..

on sale, you can't beat 69 bucks...

then next REAL step is the pacnor, for 2.5 times the sale cost of the AB.

2.5 times...

if you are building a low buck gun, this is the barrel...

if you are wanting something higher, go higher..


just like you don't NEED quarterswan exhibition 100 year old english for a 708 truck gun, there's no REASON to spend 400 on a barrel.


I think that's where some of us loss the ball in the lights .. some guys want to put together a gun from what some of us would spend just on a blank or a barrel...

jeffe

I used this guy once Shaggs. He'll supply the A&B barrel and install it for $150 with about a one week turn around.

Another option is ER Shaw. I recently had them put a .257WBY barrel on an old Ruger MKII that wouldn't shoot. The rifle does a fine job now and the price was very reasonable. John Barness(SP?) said they re-tooled the plant not long ago and the barrels are much better than they use to be. My .257WBY shoots straight and it cleans up good. I wouldn't use them for a high end custom, but for a rebarrel of a factory gun I think they are a good option.

Terry

well let me put in my 2 cents since i do this for a living and since i have installed over and i mean way over 100 Adams and Bennett barrels this year alone. for the money you can't go wrong!! sure the contour is a little heavy, and i have seen way deeper rifling! but i have also seen them make some serious improvements to their product over the past 3 years or so after some smiths like me complained. for one the exterior finish is way better that what you will get from Douglas or Shilen unless you pay to have them polish them from the factory. second you get a barrel blank 26.5" long like Douglas and Shilen used to give you. now they give you 25.5 and want you to cut off 1.5" due to possible swelling from the button being forced through the barrel. if you want 26" you need to buy a #4 blank (too heavy)or buy one of their pre-threaded and short chambered barrels. as far as Shaw goes i haven't used them and won't until the get realistic about their delivery dates 6-8 weeks is redicilous, i can have an A&B or Douglas or Shilen here in 1 week. if you are in the market for a real tack driver top of the line barrel by all means go with the Douglas or Shilen it's money well spent and i'll bet no one beats my price on supplying or installing one and as far as Shaws work i have a 30-06 in here right now with a target 30-06 barrel on it and must say the barrel looks fine but the moron who installed it at Shaw botched up the stamping job on it so bad i would have sent it back my 2 year old grand daughter could have done better with her crayola set. here lately i have been using Douglas exclusively i have a .280 Ackley and a 6.5-280 Ackley that shoot 1/4" groups and they love Hornaday bullets and h-4831sc powder. as far as Shilen goes i have one of my personal rifles i still haven't gotten to shoot correctly in .30-338 and had one other one that when i was cutting and reaming it just gave me fits due to the hardness of the steel being irratic. as far as the old rugers go especially in .257 roberts i have re-barreled a ton of them because they would not shoot this was when Wilson made their barrels and Ruger had some serious problems with them so they went out and bought their own hammer forging machines and now make their own barrels this really put the hurt to Wilson. look on my site i have some pics. of a .338-06 i barreled with an Adams and Bennett barrel and did some other work like lap lugs drill and tap etc. on this guy took it to Africa and killed 5 species with i believe there is a target posted on the site (pretty impressive)i would not have imagined someone taking a 338-06 and especially one barreled with a lower end barrel on to a Safari but i was pleasently surprized to see the photo's and he even took a Wilderbeast with it. 190 yards 1 shot 1 kill. like any rifle your bullet choice, and primer and powder and C.O.L and above all shooter ability make all the difference in the size of the groups on paper. have you seen the new Nosler rifle? you give them $3500 and they will give a really nice looking rifle that shoots 1/2" groups (if you use their ammo)give me $3500 and i will give you 3. mauser action rifles that look NICE and shoot 1/2" or better. or just buy one and take the rest of the $$$$ and spend it on a once in a life time hunt somewhere here in the states. http://www.skaggsgunsmithing.com i build working hunting rifles, functional, accurate and good looking. need one call me!. want a $5000 wall hanger that looks like Di Vinci made it? call someone else.

Jeff..You hit it right on the head..not everyone has a lot of disposable income..and a guy building a hobby rifle is as interested in learning how to do it as he is in shooting the rifle. A&B barrels..and Shaw barrels are fine for that purpose. I would not hesitate to use either of those barrels..and I have used both with good results on my project rifles.

That being said...if I was to have some one do the barreling work for me..I would spend more money on the barrel...probably it would be a Douglas, Shilen or LW...

BTW Dave..we will probably be chasing hogs and deer in S TX early in Dec this year...Jack is ready!!
Zeeriverrat1

Hey Mark, sorry I got the spelling wrong on your name. Good to see you here.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:

quote:

so far of the 4-5 A&B bbls i've used, all will shoot under 1.5" at 100 yds

I expect a certain level of performance and 1.5 MOA don't cut it in my book if I had a 7mm or a 30 cal that could only get me that with load development, I would trade it. On a true big bore thats a different story and that would be acceptable with the best of barrels.

'scuse me? Why would you expect less from a gun designed to save your life than from a gun designed for simple sport?

The myth that big bores don't have to be accurate is probably fueled by the people who won't invest the time to shoot them accurately. Confidence is essential and that comes partly from knowing your equipment is top notch whether it will be tasked to that degree or not.

There is no more excuse (with today's compenents) for building a 2 MOA big bore than there is a 2 MOA medium or varmint rifle.

Tigger,

I am not following you on this I think.

Are you suggesting that you can build a big bore to compete against the under 30 cal varmit rigs in a big bore? I can't see you seriously comparing a 6 PPC to a 458 Win Mag.

My point is on big bores is what is the application? At what is max expected range? 150 yards is the upper end in my estimation, the different between 1 MOA @ 150 yards and 1.5 MOA is 1.5 inches vrs 2.25 inches and on the game the size to warrant use of a big bore does 3/4" make squat for difference?

I am in the process of building a big bore (medium - .423 ) and if I get 1 MOA using a Krieger barrel I will be entirely happy. FN action, Krieger barrel all good parts and I just don't have much expectation that I will see much better than that, and if that ends up opening up by a 1/4 MOA, so be it it really won't matter, if I beat that well thats gravy.

Yes, the rounds are just as accurate for that purpose but shooting them that well is another story.

Field use may not require it but it is still a measure of the care with which the gun was built.

My 375 will shoot .5 repeatedly; my 416 Remington can and does shoot in the .3s regularly with Northfork 370 gr bullets. My 458 SOCOM on a Remington bolt action also shoots sub-sonic 500 gr bullets well under an inch group. None of these are factory guns, BTW.

I am finishing a 505 Gibbs for the Bubba hunt in November and I'll be dissapointed if it won't go an inch or better.

All of these fantastic groups get shot off a Caldwell Lead Sled. I can't do it in the field and as you alluded, it isn't required for the type of hunting they were built for. The point is I know my guns can do it and that gives me great confidence in my gear.

quote:

All of these fantastic groups get shot off a Caldwell Lead Sled. I can't do it in the field and as you alluded, it isn't required for the type of hunting they were built for. The point is I know my guns can do it and that gives me great confidence in my gear.

Well thats your first advantage over me. I don't have a sled and my friend just trashed his with a big bore ( being repaired ). SO for me I can't keep anything over 40 cal in such small groups.

My 375 shoots real good groups, but I never triggered a 458 Win that was a tack driver. And yes I would say its probably me. In a hunting rifle if I get .75 MOA I am happy, many of my rifles will do better with different bullets, but my hunting loads don't get me much better than that as an average.

The confidence factor I agree 100% with with you, nice knowing your hardware is up to snuff.

Mark Skaggs. Welcome. What is your opinion of the smaller contour f14 series 3 A&B barrels? In particular the 257 roberts. I noticed on your ebay adds you specify the f34 contours.

Thanks,
Weagle

weagle,

I just finished a 98 in 257 with the F14 bbl. I like the cotour very much. A while back I did another 98 in 7x57 with the F34 contour. Big mistake, way too heavy for a sporter. It shot great, but I wasn't looking for a target weight rifle. I sold it to a buddy, he loves it.

well the F-14 is fine i have done quite a few but i guess i am a little weird in the fact i like a #3 Douglas or Shilen contours and at least 24" but i like to get the most out of and caliber so barrel length is important to me. i think the F-14 is great for a light gun for the wife or kids or even a light mountain rifle. i did one for a guy in Nevada he left feed back on my site saying it shot great and his wife took a nice Range Maggot (Antelope) with it. i had one of my own on a mauser '93 in 7 x 57 ackley it shot good if not pushed hard. and by hard i mean a 150 gr. bullets going close to 3000fps in a 21 1/4" barrels is too hard. i backed it off considerably and it shot well. keep in mind the the f-14 is a hard contour to find a stock for unless you are going with a wood un-finished one with a 1/2" barrel channel. is it just me or is anyone else pissed off at Boyd's? their stocks are finished nicely as far as the varnish goes but the front tang of the floor plate trigger sets way too low in the stock and some aren't inletted too good and when i called them on it and talked to Shane i believe his name was his responce was and i quote "i can send you another but it will be the same" and pretty much told me that if i did not like their product to go somewhere else!!!!! now who can argue with customer service like that?.

Larger bores, on average, are generally more accurate than small bores, all else being equal.


the is experience, not conjecture....

my WORST shooting bigbore, a 45/70 handirifle, is a 1.5" iron sighted gun.. with a trigger like a 2x4 in broken glass, and horrible sights...

scoped, 376 steyr shoots 3/4 moa at 200, with a thick cross haired leupold, 416 rem shoots less than 1/2", 500 jeffe, if i do my part, is a submoa...

just about any thrown together .375 or bigger just shoots... IF and only IF the user is willing.

Too many times I've seen big bores "that don't shoot for crap" .. and asked to shoot it.. and it's a prety fair gun.. not the buckshot pattern the guy was throwing....


Harry's leadsled stands up to 550 express pretty darn well!!!

jeffe

as to my SUB (note the word SUB) 1.5" groups off a bench not being very good, i don't shoot off a sled or any other sort of fixture. i've got a rest i made from 2x4's covered in carpet and padding w/ feet to level it out. i hold the f/e in my left hand, rest the back of my hand on the rest and my right elbow on the table. a considerably different aspect compared to locking the rifle down. what a rifle will do when ensconced in a device rendering it immobile is a nice exercise but holds no interest for me. if a rifle can shoot reasonable groups under the conditions i just described - and remember i said no hundreds of rounds of tweaking load combinations, just pick a bullet i like and safe load and shoot it - i think that's all any reasonable person could ask. i'm far more interested in what i can do with it afterwards.

as to why expect less from one particular rifle over another, it's just math and good sense. varmints are small targets, usually shot at greater range. the kill zone of any typical big game animal is more like sqare feet than square inches and is - or should be - shot at closer range. the difference between 3/4" groups and 1.5" groups on a 3x3" target at 500 yrds is more significant mathematically than than on a 12x12 target at 250yds. as one bbl maker put it many years ago, it doesn't take 1 MOA to kill a moose.

and based on what i observe at shooting ranges - i.e. people who NEVER practice from field positions - i'd say the typical US shooter w/ a 1/2MOA gun has a rifle he can't practically use at 10% efficiency.

Jeff,

I ceede to experience, and now you really have me curious. I don't currently own any true big bores, mine is in the que on gun projects, and my 375 H&H doesn't really count as a true BB.

Years ago I briefly got into 50 cal rifles and I got to admit. none of these lacked in the accuracy department. And my basis for other BB rifles has been 45-70 and 50-70 rifles that were no tack drivers. But that very probably was some me, and a lot the rifle.

When my project gets finished up this is going to be an interesting experiment on my part, maybe I have some pleasant suprises in store.

quote:

Originally posted by willmckee:
as to my SUB (note the word SUB) 1.5" groups off a bench not being very good, i don't shoot off a sled or any other sort of fixture. i've got a rest i made from 2x4's covered in carpet and padding w/ feet to level it out. i hold the f/e in my left hand, rest the back of my hand on the rest and my right elbow on the table. a considerably different aspect compared to locking the rifle down. what a rifle will do when ensconced in a device rendering it immobile is a nice exercise but holds no interest for me. if a rifle can shoot reasonable groups under the conditions i just described - and remember i said no hundreds of rounds of tweaking load combinations, just pick a bullet i like and safe load and shoot it - i think that's all any reasonable person could ask. i'm far more interested in what i can do with it afterwards.

as to why expect less from one particular rifle over another, it's just math and good sense. varmints are small targets, usually shot at greater range. the kill zone of any typical big game animal is more like sqare feet than square inches and is - or should be - shot at closer range. the difference between 3/4" groups and 1.5" groups on a 3x3" target at 500 yrds is more significant mathematically than than on a 12x12 target at 250yds. as one bbl maker put it many years ago, it doesn't take 1 MOA to kill a moose.

and based on what i observe at shooting ranges - i.e. people who NEVER practice from field positions - i'd say the typical US shooter w/ a 1/2MOA gun has a rifle he can't practically use at 10% efficiency.

You should probably look at a Lead Sled before you jump to conclusions about locking a rifle down. It sits free on rests just like any other. It simply adds weight to the rifle to the point that recoil is reduced to a comfortable level. That in turn allows the shooter to select a position that allows for identical recoil reaction between shots. That is in a nutshell all it takes to find mechanical accuracy.

And mechanical accuracy is a good thing to know regardless of whether it's needed in every instance. At a minimum, it gives one a benchmark against one's efforts to constantly improve one's other shooting. Once the potential is proved, all else lies with the shooter.

And I would guess the difference in our points of view could be attributed to (maybe) your interest leans more to hunting than mine, which leans more to building and general shooting rather than on hunting.

My theory about big bullets shooting better/easier than tiny 22s and 6mms is that since the manufacturing tolerances are roughly equal, they represent a far less percentage of the total bullet mass and therefore have less negative effect. I have no idea if that is the truth, but it's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

i agree completely. there is no intrinsic reason a smaller bore should be more accurate from the standpoint of the barrel or components either and as you say, the reverse is probably true. in fact i never said exactly that. may have been someone else or what i wrote just got interpreted that way.

has nothing to do w/ bore size, rather has to do with use. the topic being the suitability of less expensive barrels, my point was the larger the target, the more you can get away with in precision (and subsequently lesser expense) of components - gun and ammo both. nothing to do w/ bore size at all. whether an A&B bbl is "suitable" is an open question and begs the response of "suitable for what?" bench rest competition? 500 yard coyote's? moose? is all relative. the ones i've used have been "suitable", but i can imagine many applications in which they wouldn't be.

i still bet your sled is a lot steadier than what i do and my "1.5's" would be reduced significantly. esp if i let the bbl cool between shots and diddled w/ the loads.

my attitude is "any reasonably good rifle should produce reasonable accuracy w/ reasonable loads". the big question is "reasonable for what?" and in buying a barrel that's what the shooter has to determine for himself.

so far the rifles i've still got that i built, only the 500-3"NE #1 and the 340 mag on a mark v cost more than $600 total and that was because of the actions. even my 500 jeffery was $550 (but the action - winchester - was $45 very long ago, stock from fajen on sale when they folded, and all work done by me when still had access to a machine shop. the barrel - mcgowen - was the most expensive part and 40% of the total).

I think we're on the same page. Oddly enough ( and I mean ODDLY) the 416 I talked about is an A&B that I got on a Midway sale for $69.00. It was short chambered in 416 Taylor. My jaw almost fell off the first time I got those groups. ONTH, it shoots 350 gr Speers all over the place and I know that to be a good shooting bullet.

Mark,

I've seen a couple of rigs you put together, I was not impressed. Nor am I impressed with the A&B barrels. I've seen a number of them, many used by friends. They are very hit or miss. I've never seen these kinds of deviations when using quality barrels. Most of the people I know have decided the gamble is not worth it and have since decided to use quality barrels. The extra few dollars are worth it in the long run.

Lets face it, the A&B barrels are popular not because of how well they shoot but because they can be screwed on by the first timer, finished reamed by hand, and taken afield. Why any decent smith would want to use a short chambered barrel is beyond me.

realized i omitted a couple words - the 500 jeffery action is a winchester p14 enfield.

why i like short chambered barrels is because i'm not a gunsmith and don't have a lathe. last place i worked i had access to a full machine shop w/ far more capability than any gunsmith ever had but i don't have that any more and to do it myself i need short chambers. i like "my" rifles to be "MY" rifles. anybody w/ money can pay somebody to do something for him.

short chambered bbls themselves are hardly anything to look down your nose at. brownells used to sell shortchambered bbls that were as i recall furnished to them by shilen. used a couple of those also and whoever made them, they certainly weren't low quality.

willmckee,

Did you finish ream those barrels by hand? I suspect so. Otherwise you would realize that it takes much more effort to set up a short chambered barrel than a blank. A blank is fairly easy to indicate in. A short chambered barrel requires more tooling and measuring equipment than your typical backyard smith has.

well....yeah. rereading my last post seeing words like "..don't have a lathe.." etc, i thought that was pretty clear. yes i did it by hand and i never said a word abt what required more effort as that wasn't an issue. i'm an engineer (ME) and did my own machine work when had machines to use and i know exactly what takes what effort. it was your point "..finish reamed by hand.." i was agreeing with.

and i'll still take a hand-finished chamber i did over one i paid somebody to do. it's a matter of pride. i swear sometimes the subject of custom rifles seems to be a contest of who can claim he spent the most. my goal is getting what i want, spending the least, and doing all the work myself.

willmckee,

I think you'll see our posts overlaped. Hence my question.

You'll not see me gettinginto a contest over price paid. that is irreleavnt. I will argue over precision and quality of the work that went into a project. Like you, I'd take a chamebr that I finish reeamed by hand over one done on a lathe by some of the budget smiths or even some fairly pricey ones that don't emphasize proper setup. The whole purpose of a custom rifle in my mind is to build something that is better than the current factory offerings. Not something inferior.

Craigster and Mark Skaggs,
Thanks. Some first hand experience is what I was looking for.

Mark, I'll probably have a rifle headed your way soon. I see you have a ton of excellent feedback from satisfied customers.

Weagle

well Poleax, next time i am in an especially good mood i will read your post about my RIGS. this way i won't have to call one of my EX wives to get a kick in the nuts, i'll be able to get it right here on my computer. man am i lucky i found this site!!!!! well like i said i build rifles to the best of my ability. i'll try to do better in the future right after i have this knife surgically removed from my back it makes it had for me to dial indicate these crappy pre-threaded barrels in on the 4 jaw chuck. but enough about that and amazingly enough i actually hand ream those barrels the last few thousandths. as far as me using pre-threaded and short chambered barrels, i use what the customer wants and i do this to make money to feed my family. i retired from a upper management position at the age of 44 from a multi billon dollar company making darned near six figures a year because i had to put up with stuff like this on a daily basis. i would love to be able to thread and ream Kreiger, Lilja, Pac-Nor, Schnider, Weissman barrels all day long but i work for the common man and he can't afford them and neither can i. you know i was a guide on a large ranch in calif. for a while and we used to get these what we called Pharmacy hunters carrying the high dollar high powered rigs most had more money than brains and definately not the tallent to shoot one to it's ability and were a pain in the ass to guide due to their arrogant attitudes. most of the time you would have to bust your ass finding the animal they shot a little low in the neck as we used to say (right in the ass) generally. we had to reteive the animal dress it out listen to their crap about the shot they made with that hand lapped hand reamed way better than factory rifle while trying to dress a hog they just shot through both hams and get a $10 tip for all the trouble. we used to love to guide the common man who saved up for years to pull off the trip and was very appreciative of your efforts and used his old Mauser or 03-A3 or Pre '64 his dad or grandpa left him old meat in the pot type rifle. more often than not the old boy would give you a bottle of booze or a hunting knife for a tip and that's the guy i want to build rifles for and work with and that meant more to us than a tip from some ferrari driving better than you pecker headed chardonnay sipping know it all blow hard. OH! and Weagle please feel free to send me any work you want done i will try my best to make YOU happy.