Anyone had any luck with hand-lapping a factory Chrome-Moly barrel that tends to copper foul REALLY bad (thus making the accuracy go to hell)?
I've got a Remington that I really like but after about 20 rounds or so the c-fouling is really bad at the muzzle. Spend the next hour, next evening, or more getting it out. The groups are in-consistant and the POI drifts around. Yes, it is pillar bedded, etc.
Also have the same problem with a Winny C-Moly barrel but not as bad. Also have the same problem with a C-M custom barrel but that is at the maker at the moment.

I have used a bronze brush with scotch brite embedded with J_B bore paste.
Depending on how bad the bore is repeat as necessary.

Thanks for the suggestion Plainsman. But I was really thinking about taking it to a g-smith and having a real "hand-lapping" job done. I will give the scotch brite thing a try as I really don't have much to lose except the copper.

You might look up beartooth bullets and their firelapping bullets and compound. I havent used it myself but have heard good things from several people.

SSR

I've used the fire-lapping process from NECO with very good results on a couple factory rifles including a Remington 721 in 30-06. The rifle's accuracy was improved slightly, but the fouling was virtually eliminated. This particular rifle also had a couple of tight spots that could be felt with a tight fitting patch, and they were removed. The bore is now consistent from end to end, shoots well, and cleans up quickly.

As far as hand lapping a factory barrel, there is the significant risk of opening up the bore at each end. It isn't a big difference, but it makes a difference. I'd be surprised if it shot well after the lapping. A custom barrel that is hand lapped before chambering, has this belled area on each end removed by the chamber and cut off on the muzzle end.

I tried the fire lapping on a couple of rifles but without much success. One did seem to clean up a little better but accuracy wasn't improved. I will look at my records to see exactly what the results were and which rifles I did it to. One was a 270 Win. prior to being rebarreled with a custom barrel. On that one in particular, I can honestly say it made no difference and actually shot a little worse. That is why it got re-barreled.

Firelapping was originally developed for revolvers and later adapted to rifles. The SOP for revolvers is to use soft lead bullets and embed the lapping compound into their bore-riding portion, but this is seldom the best route for a rifle.

IMO rifles respond better if the operator uses jacketed bullets for lapping instead of lead ones. The lead bullet, especially the soft lead recommended, tends to obturate into the leade/throat area and thus increase its diameter. IMO this increased diameter is a suspect thing, and makes me think that possibly the beneficial effect of the rifling lapping was degraded by the now-oversize throat.

Just a thought but my admittedly limited experience tends to bear this out....
Regards, Joe

Joe,
I read somewhere that for hand lapping, a small short cast is made of the barrel, I believe out of lead. And this lead plug is then impregnated with a very mild abrasive and pushed/pulled through the bore by hand. You know anything about this?

The barrel on the Remmy looks pretty rough with scratches running perpindicular to the lands and grooves about 1" to 8" from the muzzle. At first I thought that either I or the previous owner may have put them there with a bore sight, but the after looking closer I think I can see the scratches running completely up next to the bottom of the riflings and they are at an odd angle to everything. Dan Lilja says using a bore sight in the muzzle is a no-no as per his web site. But again the scratches are too far in and at an odd angle.

Rae, Lilja's site gives one of the best descriptions of hand lapping a barrel that I've seen. IMO the most important thing to note in his description, is what they do after lapping the barrel, they have to cut an inch off (I believe) both ends because of how the lap interacts with the holes. For this reasons it typically not recommended that a person try to lap an already mounted barrel.

What antelope sniper said.

True old-time experts could reliably hand-lap the old soft barrels, but they usually if not always left a little choke at the muzzle end. This largely obviates the need to remove the last inch since the lap doesn't act upon it nearly as much as it does upon the rest of the bore.

I suggest fire-lapping with jacketed bullets. To apply & embed the dry abrasive, roll the bullet & abrasive powder between 2 steel plates or 2 glass panes.

For an interesting dissertation from the initiator of the fire-lapping process, please see Precision Shooting sometime around 1990. I think I still have all my old issues somewhere around here but I've slept since then (grin). Merrill Martin 'discovered' the advantages while experimenting with S&W revolvers and ways to improve their accuracy.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
I suggest fire-lapping with jacketed bullets. To apply & embed the dry abrasive, roll the bullet & abrasive powder between 2 steel plates or 2 glass panes.

Regards, Joe

I have a fire lapping kit. The last time I used it, the results were un-impressive, as I recall. I am away from home and will check my records when I get back.

Read this short article by

Lapping A Rifle Barrel
By Reid Coffield

http://www.shootingtimes.com/g...appingbarrel_200805/

http://www.davidtubb.com/finalfinish.html

I do mine differently driving from chamber end with lands forward on Rifles twist rate ,using lapping compound and dense muslin mops of bore size . also put a rubber plug in the bore 1.25" inside for a stop ,knock out plug push mop out unscrew it ,put a Neoprene cap on rod and pull it out , repeat MANY times . I've also cast 80-90 durometer urethane 4" slugs with rod imbedded ,an then impregnated them with polishing compound hooked up on a drill motor and chucked in the lathe . I use a custom made bore guide with Dbl needle bearings which supports my SS rod . I still only drive from breech end too 1.25" short of muzzle .

Bottom line it most certainly helps with fouling issues ,as for accuracy I'd sure like to think so , however reality is I've no effective method of ascertaining that critical data reliably .

For every method there is a madness which drives one insane over time .

Sounds like rebarrel time. Quit wasting bullets, powder, and primers.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
I suggest fire-lapping with jacketed bullets. To apply & embed the dry abrasive, roll the bullet & abrasive powder between 2 steel plates or 2 glass panes.

Regards, Joe

I have a fire lapping kit. The last time I used it, the results were un-impressive, as I recall. I am away from home and will check my records when I get back.

What kit do you have? I originally bought the Midway kit and was unimpressed with the abrasive they included so sent it back and bought the NECO kit which uses a much better quality abrasive. The NECO kit has very good instructions as well. Jacketed bullets and light loads is the way to go for a center fire rifle. Need to clean a little between shots, and real well between grits too.

You can always re-barrel if it doesn't work to your satisfaction, but I'm a cheapskate and will expend the $10 in bullets and powder before spending $300-500 on a new barrel job.

What bullets are you using?
If you are using the worse fouling things out there you might try another brand.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Sounds like rebarrel time. Quit wasting bullets, powder, and primers.
Butch

Have to agree. Sounds to me the barrel is done.

How many rounds through it and what caliber??

quote:

Originally posted by gzig5:
What kit do you have? I originally bought the Midway kit and was unimpressed with the abrasive they included so sent it back and bought the NECO kit which uses a much better quality abrasive. The NECO kit has very good instructions as well. Jacketed bullets and light loads is the way to go for a center fire rifle. Need to clean a little between shots, and real well between grits too.

You can always re-barrel if it doesn't work to your satisfaction, but I'm a cheapskate and will expend the $10 in bullets and powder before spending $300-500 on a new barrel job.

I have the Wheeler kit and I believe I got it from Midway also. I am assuming it is the one you sent back? What should I have been looking for as far as abrasives?
Are you doing the re-barrel jobs yourself? Down here a rebarrel job is going for $600 plus. By the time you get any coating plus sales tax on a stainless it can easily get to $700 not to mention a 12 week wait for the barrel then another wait on the smith. My last re-barrel job took 7 months. On this particular rifle, I doubt I would find a take-off anywhere as it is a 7X57 Rem. Mountain Rifle from the late 1980's - I believe.

I have put appox. 300 rounds through it myself. I bought it at a pawn shop so I have no idea how many rounds the previous ownner/s put down it. I spent a good hour and a half cleaning it with Butch's, Kroil, and then J-B paste until I didn't see anymore copper. Shot it yesterday and it was putting 2 shot groups down within
1-3/4" at 200 yards until it had about 10 rounds through the barrel. Then it started opening up.......again. Been trying to figure this rifle out but just can't seem to. It is not one I would trust as it can have the occasional wild flyer for no apparent reason.

SR4759, I have been using reloads with
Rem. CoreLoks 150 gr. and 140 gr. and Hornady 154 gr. I don't know what you consider to be a bad copper fouler. TSXs?? I am going to try some Sierra 150s next. But I don't think that will do much for the fouling.

From what I have heard Ultra-Bore coat
for around $50 delivered will do the same
thing as lapping and a whole lot safer.

I'll check into it. Where can I get the Ultra Bore?

I have a Ruger M77 MkII chambered in 30/06 that would copper foul the bore horribly after 15-20 rounds. The rifle was accurate when clean but accuracy would dissipate quickly with the fouling, so I decided to hand lap the bore myself. I have a box of soft lead fishing sinkers that are shaped like bullets and found one that was a little over groove diameter and pushed it through the bore with a wooden dowel rod. Then I applied lapping compound (I fotget what grit, probably a medium) and starting pushing the formed/coated slug from one end of the bore to the other end until I lost count of laps. I didn't know whether I had done any good but after I shot the rifle next time (25+ rounds) copper clean-up was very minimal. I would compare clean-up of this bore to a Shilen Match grade or maybe less copper. I wouldn't hesitate to lap another one.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:

quote:

Originally posted by gzig5:
What kit do you have? I originally bought the Midway kit and was unimpressed with the abrasive they included so sent it back and bought the NECO kit which uses a much better quality abrasive. The NECO kit has very good instructions as well. Jacketed bullets and light loads is the way to go for a center fire rifle. Need to clean a little between shots, and real well between grits too.

You can always re-barrel if it doesn't work to your satisfaction, but I'm a cheapskate and will expend the $10 in bullets and powder before spending $300-500 on a new barrel job.

I have the Wheeler kit and I believe I got it from Midway also. I am assuming it is the one you sent back? What should I have been looking for as far as abrasives?
Are you doing the re-barrel jobs yourself? Down here a rebarrel job is going for $600 plus. By the time you get any coating plus sales tax on a stainless it can easily get to $700 not to mention a 12 week wait for the barrel then another wait on the smith. My last re-barrel job took 7 months. On this particular rifle, I doubt I would find a take-off anywhere as it is a 7X57 Rem. Mountain Rifle from the late 1980's - I believe.

I have put appox. 300 rounds through it myself. I bought it at a pawn shop so I have no idea how many rounds the previous ownner/s put down it. I spent a good hour and a half cleaning it with Butch's, Kroil, and then J-B paste until I didn't see anymore copper. Shot it yesterday and it was putting 2 shot groups down within
1-3/4" at 200 yards until it had about 10 rounds through the barrel. Then it started opening up.......again. Been trying to figure this rifle out but just can't seem to. It is not one I would trust as it can have the occasional wild flyer for no apparent reason.

SR4759, I have been using reloads with
Rem. CoreLoks 150 gr. and 140 gr. and Hornady 154 gr. I don't know what you consider to be a bad copper fouler. TSXs?? I am going to try some Sierra 150s next. But I don't think that will do much for the fouling.

Yes, it was the wheeler kit that I sent back. As I remember, the grits they had were coarser and not as consistent of quality as what came in the NECO kit. Not saying the Wheeler kit won't work, but I decided to pay up for the NECO.

I'm set up to do my own rebarreling now, but the guy I used previously is a top national long range shooter and gunsmith. He charges $150 to blueprint an action if desired which includes cut receiver face; single point cut receiver threads; cut receiver lugs; cut bolt face; cut bolt lugs; lap lugs and then $175 to thread and chamber a barrel (plus barrel cost). So for him to do a simple barrel job would be $300-$500 total depending on the quality of the blank you use.

I'm not saying that fire-lapping will cure your barrel, maybe it's giving the best you're going to get from it. But I'd be willing to give it a try considering the minimal cost versus a new barrel.

Also, you mentioned the groups drift around. That could be an issue with the bedding even though it is pillared, is the barrel floating and bedding properly relieved at the tang and recoil lug? Or the barrel may have a stress in it that shows up with heat. I don't think fouling is the root cause of groups shifting around.

Good luck getting it sorted out.

Yes the barrel is floated but I really don't know what you are meaning by relieved at the lug and the tang. Are you meaning that the recoil lug is not bottoming out? Other than the obvious how would I check the tang?

I thought I had this rifle figured out the last time I shot it, but the latest two shooting sessions proved otherwise. It is a used rifle
but I do like it and would like it to be at least consistant in POI and shoot at least 1-1/2MOA also on a regular basis.

I really don't have anything to lose with the fire lapping or even hand lapping as Luckyducker suggested for that matter. If it don't work then I re-barrel anyway.

firelap it, and be done with it

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
firelap it, and be done with it

NECO or Wheeler??????????

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
Yes the barrel is floated but I really don't know what you are meaning by relieved at the lug and the tang. Are you meaning that the recoil lug is not bottoming out? Other than the obvious how would I check the tang?

I thought I had this rifle figured out the last time I shot it, but the latest two shooting sessions proved otherwise. It is a used rifle
but I do like it and would like it to be at least consistant in POI and shoot at least 1-1/2MOA also on a regular basis.

I really don't have anything to lose with the fire lapping or even hand lapping as Luckyducker suggested for that matter. If it don't work then I re-barrel anyway.

The rear end of the tang should not have any bedding behind it. That acts as a second recoils lug and can cause funny things to happen as well as cracking the wood from recoil. The bottom, sides, and front of the recoil lug should not touch the bedding. Most folks use one or two layers of tape on those surfaces while bedding the front of the action and lug. Just for giggles, make sure the front action screw isn't too long and touching the bolt lug. You're right that it should have a consistent POI and 1 1/2 MOA normally is attainable on a Rem 700 that doesn't have something wrong with it.

Against most of the advice given on this post, I went ahead and took my two C-M factory barreled rifles to a local gunsmith friend of mine to have "hand" lapped. He is sort of a old school smith. He said he could make no promises but was confident in his method and would give it a whirl.
When I picked up the two rifles (Rem. 700 & Win. M-70) he told me that the Rem. 700 had more than .001" choke appox. 1" before the muzzle thru to the muzzle end. (before he lapped) He said it was tough to get out. (This would explain alot about the copper fouling at the muzzle and the erratic grouping the rifle was prone to not to mention the POI shift as the barrel heated up.) Don't know exactly how he found it other than at first by feel then measuring it with a partially inserted lead slug at the muzzle.
This is similiar to what JDSteele said occurs in a earlier post, however the barrel was much too rough to have already been lapped prior IMO.


After firing only 14 rounds through the 700, I can say there is a remarkable difference in accuracy as well as consistancy from the get-go. So far...no periodic wild fyers. And the POI "seems" to not drift after succesive shots and barrel heating. It shot 4 successive shots at 3/4 MOA -100 yards and a 9/16" CtoC at 200 yards, all with a very warm barrel. Prior to the handlapping it would take several rounds to settle in then would get erractic as the barrel heated up. This would make sense with the choked muzzle finding as the barrel would open up as it became heated.

The M-70 seems also much improved as far as the few 10 rounds can show. So far it is shooting much more consistantly in the 1 MOA range it too was better at 200 yards as was the R-700.

I have no clue how much improvement I will see as far as barrel cleaning although I suspect it should be quite a bit.

I am now wondering how many rifles have been written off and had the same problem as my Rem-700 with the choked muzzle with no one ever suspecting it. I remember reading here that someone's g-smith would cut off a inch or so off a non-shooter. That smith may have been on to something.

Will know alot more in another 100 rounds or so.

quote:

.001" choke

Next time you get a fouler push a lead slug through it by hand. If it has a tight spot of .001 you will be able to feel it easily.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

.001" choke

Next time you get a fouler push a lead slug through it by hand. If it has a tight spot of .001 you will be able to feel it easily.

SR,
Not trying to be a "smart ass" but I think I have been doing that in a different way (with a tight patch) for years. I've noticed that many factory rifles seem to foul bad at the muzzle and have noticed the patch gets tight at the throat and about 1"to 2" from the muzzle.

Rae

A lot of competition shooters agree that jacket fouling that shows up near the muzzle is a result of burrs in the throat area caused during chambering operations from a poor quality reamer or bad workmanship. Sometimes inaccurate alignment with the bore when chambering will cause it too.

The theory is when the bullet enters the bore when out of alignment or passes over a rough throat the jacket material is shaved off into small particles then the high temperature of the burning powder melts the jacket material into a plasma. Supposedly the plasma of jacket material is still in the bore when the bullet exits allowing oxygen to get to the plasma which is near the muzzle, enabling it to fuse to the bore.

Craftsman, (reread your reply and edited my original response)
Are you saying that the smith only took out the burrs in the throat area in the handlapping (as that was all that was done)?

That theory makes alot of sense however the 700 still had the "choked" barrel, the M-70 did not as per the gunsmith, yet both were prone to copper fouling at the muzzle. (By the way my g-smith says that all C-moly barrels foul much worse than stainless and I am inclined to agree and I was also told that same thing by a gentleman from a custom barrel co.) Both rifles were cleaned religiously by myself until there was no more visible copper. Both probably had over 300 rounds fired by me - the 700 probably had more as it was a used rifle. If the chambers are out of alignment with the bores then the problem should resurface again rather quickly if not immediatly, wouldn't it?


Both rifles had VERY rough bores with chatter marks and other flaws perpindicular to the rifling. I could see this for myself.
To me this indicates poor tooling or inconsistancy in the barrel material. In either case, neither barrel was lapped by any method as both were factory barrels.

The Winchester was much more consistant accuracy wise than the Rem. but it too would simply start opening the groups up after fouling and then eventually start getting erratic with some wild flyers on occasion. The Remy was very un-predictable. Tight groups.... then with out warning, it would go south quick, usually with a warm to hot barrel after successive shots, then tight again for several groups with a warm barrel. Let the barrel cool,then good groups again for a short while...... sometimes and sometimes not. Very un-predictable. (I used to blame this problem on the thin Mountain rifle barrel)

In my particular situation, I feel it is more likely a combination of things but most of all the very rough bores. In any event the hand lapping seems to have worked so far.
But as I said, "I'll know more in another 100 rounds or so.

Thanks for your reply.

Rae

I'm only quoting a couple of barrel makers and quite a few bench rest competitors. I have observed with my 20X bore scope that when fouling is really bad in the last few inches of a barrel it is nearly always accompnied by burrs on the back side of every land of the throat, caused by a dull reamer or poor machining techniques. Such as wrong speed or feed, poor alignment, wrong coolant or oil or lack of it, etc. etc.

I have have hand lapped quite a few rough barrels and observed the progress with the bore scope. I did make sure I had lapped away all of the burrs associated with the throat. Those burrs would probably be removed as a by product of most barrel lapping anyway. In every case bore fouling was just about eliminated. I would say about 50% showed accuracy improvement.

If you want to check your bedding it is easy. Make up an adaptor to attach a dial indicator to the barrel with the stylus touching the forearm of the stock. Then tighten and loosen the front guard screw. Observe any movement. Now do the same thing with the rear screw. If the bedding is good there will be .001 to .004 movement when you try the screws. If there is more, the rifle needs to be rebedded. If there is zero, the action is stuck and needs to be rebedded.

Thanks for the good info Craftsman.
I am pretty sure it is not a bedding problem but will check it out at the first chance I get.

Send the POS back to Remington and let them lap/replace the barrel.
Poor finish is a defect in material/workmanship. Why should YOU have to pay someone to repair a factory defect?

Follow up on the hand-lapped rifle barrels.
After appox. 100 shots fired in both rifles and as Craftsman posted above, BOTH rifles now clean up completely with minimal effort and only using Butch's or Shooters Choice. No other solvents needed. Clean after 20-25 shots.
The accuracy was greatly improved in the M-700 as the factory "choke" was removed. It now will consistantly group from under 2" to just under 3" AT 200 yards. POI is now consitant. Tremendous improvement!

The M-70; Copper fouling is MUCH less also and appears to improve with number of shots fired. Clean up time is greatly improved also. Accuracy consistancy is somewhat better but it has always shot descent IF the barrel was copper free. It was getting the copper out that was the problem.
IMHO having a factory barrel hand-lapped was worth the cost and would recommend it, especially on a chrome-moly barrel.

Bench racing is just so much fun! Lap it, if it don't improve replace it and go back to enjoying life!

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
Follow up on the hand-lapped rifle barrels.
After appox. 100 shots fired in both rifles and as Craftsman posted above, BOTH rifles now clean up completely with minimal effort and only using Butch's or Shooters Choice. No other solvents needed. Clean after 20-25 shots.
The accuracy was greatly improved in the M-700 as the factory "choke" was removed. It now will consistantly group from under 2" to just under 3" AT 200 yards. POI is now consitant. Tremendous improvement!

The M-70; Copper fouling is MUCH less also and appears to improve with number of shots fired. Clean up time is greatly improved also. Accuracy consistancy is somewhat better but it has always shot descent IF the barrel was copper free. It was getting the copper out that was the problem.
IMHO having a factory barrel hand-lapped was worth the cost and would recommend it, especially on a chrome-moly barrel.

Glad it worked out for you. Apparently your smith knows what he is doing and was able to work the tight spot out without opening it up somewhere else. A rare skill, I would bet.

Factory choke was removed? HA HA HA HAAAA!
Butch

Butch,

A lot of the master smiths have been doing things wrong all these years. Instead of checking the barrel and placing the choked end at the muzzle, they should have been removing it! Amazing what you can learn on the internet.

That must have been one hell of a chore getting .001 of choke out with a lap without creating a jug choke next to it in the normal sized area. Wonder what shape the lands/grooves are now?

dave

Postscript: I have no doubt that the rifles shot better and clean up easier after the lapping. Just interesting the gunsmiths interpretation of what he did and why.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Factory choke was removed? HA HA HA HAAAA!
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Factory choke was removed? HA HA HA HAAAA!
Butch

Well Butch,
Howard did the work. Call him and ask how he went about removing the tight spot if you don't believe it. Or do you just not believe that Remington could make a shitty barrel?
I believe in the late '80s the Remmy barrels were still button drawn were they not?
Frankly, it's not hard for me to picture a tight spot in a button drawn barrel...especially at the muzzle.

I've always noticed a tighter area at the muzzle when running a patch and rod down the tube as that was where most of the copper collected. It also looked pretty rough at that end and as I mentioned earlier the groups and POI changed as the barrel warmed up. Too much there to not believe it had a "choke".

SSDAVE, It must have been one of the many "master smiths" at Remington that allowed that perfect barrel to get out the door...Hmmmm.

To my way of thinking, to remove a choke in a rifle barrel is to cut it off right behind the choke area and re crown. That's choke removal!