Seems like a year or so ago there were a number of folks on this forum openly advertising that they were doing stock duplication, but now hardly anyone.

Who are you using for stock duplication now?

Want to buy my duplicator? Then you can be the go to guy on AR and make a ton of money. I just don't have time for it.

I wouldn't mind owning a duplicator. Might be fun learning to use it. But I have a feeling that it might not be cost effective for the few stocks I would do for myself. And from this video it looks like one would have to have a milling machine as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ-fDAY5oOY

Just out of curiosity, what duplicator are you selling, and how much of an investment is it?

I wonder how long it takes to duplicate an average stock.

4-6 hrs , depends on the wood and complexity of the stock , not to mention size .
I set up once a year to do a batch for my own projects .
I bought a duplicator and with some practice anyone can do it , no mill needed . The duplicator I have now is about $700 . It's one of the least expensive but not cheap . Well made and excellent customer support by the man that actually makes them .

I do duplicating and have quite a few original patterns from vintage guns as well as some I built.

http://www.bertramandco.com/wood-work.html

Mr. Bertram

Do you have a price list for stock duplicating?

I do not have a price list put together. It would depend upon if it was a one piece or a two piece stock, what kind of inlet you wanted....a generic or your metal bedded to a pattern, etc.

a generic type A stock, 1/2" barrel channel I can run for 300$. If I bed your metal and run it 5-600$ usually. I build patterns for clients as well.

Steve

Ouch!

I sure miss Eddie Shulin. Week turn around

to rough 'em out for $45.

Hell of it is, the lung cancer gets most
guys that do much of it.

Times I was at Shulin's the wood smoke and
fine dust in the air left me breathless for
over an hour after leaving. I told Ed he needed to get a lot better air filtration system. "I know". yet kept at it til it killed him, or just before it did he sold the equipment and quit. Less than two yrs he was
dead.

Don't seem like there's much future to folks that do much of it. Same as wood shop teachers.

George

Walnut dust causes cancer!!! I would like to see the study on that. (Wear a respirator anyway; walnut oil is an irritant)
From what I saw, it was actually the cigarettes that killed the old time wood workers.
And if you are creating smoke when you make stocks, you are doing it wrong.

it takes time to develop skill, even with a GREAT machine -- i bought 20 "white wood" walnut blanks to start learning on, when i made my own 5 axis pantogragh

frankly, i don't think i ever even broke even on the deal, other than being able to make my own stocks, on demand, and fit for me .. which was a hugely satisfying outcome

no one wants to pay the real value of a stock, unless they are going whole hog custom -- it's round about 5 hours, from emails to get going, receiving the blank, setup work, roughing, resetting, finishing, then cleanup of the wood, and shop, then boxing up, and shipping ...

so, you do the math -- small customer base, no one wants to pay the $200 it should be, and then, if you screw up an $$$$$$ blank, you are on the hook...

power
tools
machine time
liability insurance

quote:

-- i bought 20 "white wood" walnut blanks to start learning on, when i made my own 5 axis pantogragh

And did It take you all 20 blanks before you felt you were capable of actually doing a quality job for someone else for money?

Do the custom stockmakers that charge $3000 - $5000 or more for a stock accept full liability for a $1000 blank if they make a little mistake with it?

What do you think is a fair hourly rate to turn a stock using a machine?

SKB's price is very good. Trying to figure out what's a "fair" hourly rate is irrelevant.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:

quote:

-- i bought 20 "white wood" walnut blanks to start learning on, when i made my own 5 axis pantogragh

And did It take you all 20 blanks before you felt you were capable of actually doing a quality job for someone else for money?

Do the custom stockmakers that charge $3000 - $5000 or more for a stock accept full liability for a $1000 blank if they make a little mistake with it?

What do you think is a fair hourly rate to turn a stock using a machine?

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:

quote:

-- i bought 20 "white wood" walnut blanks to start learning on, when i made my own 5 axis pantogragh

And did It take you all 20 blanks before you felt you were capable of actually doing a quality job for someone else for money?



Do the custom stockmakers that charge $3000 - $5000 or more for a stock accept full liability for a $1000 blank if they make a little mistake with it?

What do you think is a fair hourly rate to turn a stock using a machine?

If you are implying that I am working too cheap and need to raise my prices you may correct

I stock all of my own rifles and build my patterns to suit me, then off to the duplicator when satisfied with my pattern. Good patterns are essential. Running a stock duplicator is a skill. I have had good, bad and in between results with various operators over the years as well as feedback from some pretty good stock makers. Choose your duplicator wisely. As with anything, you get what you pay for.

dpcd PM a picture and a price.

I can't PM a picture; you have to PM me an email address.
As for roughing out stocks; it is an art. It has to be learned, and the set up process is as important as the manipulation of the cutters; after all, you are holding and controlling the cutters in your hands. If you want a CNC stock maker, then it will cost a bit more than the usual pantographs we use. I have seen good stocks made on low end machines, and beaver gnawed out stocks on high end ones, although on the usual ones, we leave .020 or so, for final fitting and sanding. If you want a drop in stock, then that takes a perfect pattern and a machine with no lost motion in it. And steady hands to control it.

quote:

Seems like a year or so ago there were a number of folks on this forum openly advertising that they were doing stock duplication, but now hardly anyone.

Sorry lindy2
I shut down early 2018 getting ready for my move back to the family farm. The everything went to hell. Remodel was supposed to be completed by Thanksgiving 2018. We moved in Tax day 2019. Let's not forget the $80,000+ of mechanic leans that rolled in after the first of the year.

Seems he had been in the hole for a couple years due to cancer treatments. Robbing the next job to close the current. I was left holding the bag when the music stopped. He went from the best contractor in the county to broke, out of business and now even his own son won't work for him.

So don't do as I did "you pay all 3rd parties"

Throw in 2 weeks in the hospital for bleeding ulcer and A-fib. Don't get an ulcer and let your INR get too high

I found at $125 for a single stock I had all the business I wanted at $150 not so much. Can't live on $125 but it did give me play $$ I also think $300 for a close flat bottom inletting job is worth $300 or more. Just like doing it by hand the first 98% comes off quick. That last 2% takes 98% of the time.

I think 10-12 practice gives you a good feel. I also believed and functioned if I f--k up a customer blank I've just bought it. Most mistakes come from being tired and not checking everything a 2nd and 3rd time.

At this point my shed leaks and needs replacing. Wife said duplicator will not be in the basement. New shed $$ went to liens. "Maybe" if the Lord is willing and the creeks don't rise I might be cutting in 2020.

lindy2
Drop me a PM I'd be happy to share my experiences.

I use a Hoenig and have for over 30 years. Before the Hoenig I owned and ran an Allen I bought new then re-built, A machine built by Harry Lawson and David Miller, a 4 spindle Oliver and have put a couple hundred hours on a Dale Goens machine so I feel I am at qualified to at least comment on this subject.

I have also seen what appear to be some very well made "one of" machines made by talent on this Forum as well.

The Hoenig machine can be very versatile and extremely accurate with the correct inventory of matched cutters and stylist, a pattern in which the receiver, barrel, side locks, extended tangs, magazine assemblies, etc are accurately glassed bedded into a pattern or the original stock. Then you need an experienced operator. Lack one of the above and the outcome would probably still work out just fine for most folks but not be the best of all worlds.

I do a couple dozen or more side lock shot guns stocks for other makers every year, a few single shots and the rare magazine rifle.

I machine the stocks per request, so I might only machine the head on an English, Italian or German made stock and leave the back end in the block to allow the stock maker to shape the new stock accordingly. Saves time in the inletting, time being money. An 80 year old side lock stock is usually broken and will need to be repaired so the horns for instance don't move radically under the pressure of the stylist. By taking the time to repair the old stock with some judicious glass bedding you can cut a mirror image inlet into the new wood. This prep work is not a time suck when done in stages.

Some stock makers still want anywhere from .004 to .015 of wood left under areas that will see wood compression due to the tightening of the screws over and over during the stocking process. All this can be done as well if you have a properly glassed surface. Screw this up and the machine doesn't care what it cuts including any self inflicted bedding mistakes.

I have a couple blog post on my blog that visually show some of the work in progress and the results if anyone is interested.
As to cost I have charged $85 per hour for quite some time.

On average it takes me 5 to 6 hours to set up, indicate the pattern and stock to be cut in a rotary steady rest and machine a bolt gun stock 1 to 1. Meaning very, very close, how close ? thats up to you. plus .004, plus .002, plus .001 or 1 to 1. that's up to the stocker. You cut anything that close and you better have it glassed very well.

Side lock Butts, 3 to 6 hours depending on the complexity of the inletting, if it has chin straps, trigger guard straps that merge with the grip cap or both an extra hour at times.

Half stock Muzzle loaders like Whit-Worth bullet rifles same as a bolt gun, ram rod holes that match the OD of any one given ram rod, now that's costly, better sit down for that one.

Fore-ends ? oh boy, splinters 2.5 hours, O/U's depend on the depth and length 3 hrs perhaps, 3 piece O'U fore-ends are expensive. Older Boss Bar in Wood do take some time.

Some wood does not lend itself well to being pushed around with 10,000 rpm's with either High Speed or Carbide. Some chip and break that's part of the risk. It happens. We're working with a non stable organic material regardless of what your wood broker tells you.

Those are some of the basics in a nut shell, feel free to visit the Blog, you might want to scroll through the older post to find what you want. This is not to solicited work but rather give a visual view if your at all interested of the process.



This technique is not for everyone but neither is dark beer or are Brussels sprouts www.echolsrifles.com then hit Blog

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
All this can be done as well if you have a properly glassed surface.

Words of wisdom from someone with a Doctorate of Stockology.

Knowing how to properly stock from a blank is undergraduate work that anyone that wants to correctly duplicate stocks should enthusiastically learn.

To me, my duplicator is just an efficient means to an end. The end however is not to get as close to 1 to 1 on the outside shape. My purpose is to perfectly plant the machined inletting into a beautiful block of wood as close as possible without creating any gaps in the inletting.

I'll probably never be without a manual duplicator, but I do like the ability to push a cycle start button and CNC machine a stock. This is not something that can be efficiently be used for the "average" custom rifle stock. Too many variables.

quote:

I use a Hoenig and have for over 30 years. Before the Hoenig I owned and ran an Allen I bought new then re-built, A machine built by Harry Lawson and David Miller, a 4 spindle Oliver and have put a couple hundred hours on a Dale Goens machine so I feel I am at qualified to at least comment on this subject.

That is really some very interesting custom gunmaking history right there.

I do not have anything like the experience of Mr Echols, or Mr Anderson. What they say is true, and it is good of them to give us the benefit of their experience.

I'll add some of my own lesser experiences, based on my own forays. I don't mean to look like I can run with these guys, they are denizens of the deep, deep depths of stock machining and custom gun work in general. However I hope the below helps someone.

One thing I'll add is concerning patterns. I've kept records, and have averaged around 23 hrs per week making patterns since I went into business for myself. This is mostly unpaid work, an investment, although I have also done a fair bit of pattern making work for others. Materials costs and overheads all mount up whilst undertaking such an investment. It's my observation that few men, or women, will do this. I could already stock a rifle from the blank in an OK fashion before that. I've now made a lot of patterns, to whatever quality I happen to be able to make them. My point is, if you want to copy your own work, it takes TIME to make patterns, and they COST. BIG TIME!!! The better the patterns, generally the bigger the cost, the bigger the investment, the bigger the risks.

A lot of people struggle to glass in standard bedding jobs accurately.......getting a 100% mirror job with no movement of the pattern whilst doing it takes a fair bit more. As Darcy stated, any errors here and you are sunk. Making fine patterns is a much under-rated skill.

Pattern material - I was told early on to use white walnut, or "tweener" blanks (white/heart mix). Don't. Not stable enough. Laminated hardwood is the go, or very stable good plain heart Euro walnut properly seasoned. I've learned this the hard way and I'll tell you the quick version of how: Geoff Slee long had a history of machining stocks in Australia. Geoff was a very, very good stocker, and quite an icon down here and deservedly so. Geoff graciously offered and devoted a lot of time, free of charge, teaching me what he knew. I donated much time FOC, younger keen blood cutting blanks with him. He smoked a fair bit of tobacco, and machined a lot of walnut and quite a bit of laminate with NO air filtration. Shortly before his death we tallied how many blanks he machined - a staggering volume of walnut. In 2006 he discussed with me the signs of the cancer than killed him in 2011. Wood dust in general is well known to be a carcinogen - research it, understand the risks.

After his death in 2011 I found myself reworking the great majority of his patterns. Anyone who visited his workshop would have seen that he stored his patterns jumbled on shelves laying flat atop each other, and made almost all of them from white or tweener blanks. Over the years and decades, many of them had warped. There began my education in developing means to correct them. Cost me a few years of my life is all I will say. In deference to Geoff, back in the day down here walnut blanks were crazy expensive and that was about his only realistic choice. It was still a mistake. Don't repeat it. Geoff machined nearly all his patterns, so his investment in time was far less than if cut from the block. Still, just imagine going to all that work.......only to see a fair swathe of it warp. I cannot stress this enough. Everyone makes mistakes in business somewhere and this was perhaps Geoff's only one. Like I said, a darn good stocker but it cost me hugely. I give this example to point out the gravity of protecting your investment in patterns! Don't make these mistakes.

Personally I think you need to be a good stockmaker to make good patterns first and foremost. If you are not, you simply will NOT understand all of the important ramifications of what you are doing with the patterns and machining them. There seems a strong mentality out there that possession of the machine makes the Master. If your pattern is not true, you don't stand a chance of machining a true stock.

Second point, I think you need to be a competent machinist. Or at least be willing to become one, and gain basic toolmaking skills. You need to be able to understand how to align the machine properly. The ability to make special cutters, jigs, fictures in-house can be a huge advantage, unless you just want to machine magazine rifle stocks. Sure you can make gun-stock shaped objects without the skills and machines to support better work - but you won't ever do work like Mr Echols, to the tolerances he quotes. Not a chance. You need to understand how to make the stylus and cutter, in unison, cut a true copy of the pattern. That statement can be as simple or as demanding as you will it.

Another point, it's much more difficult to machine slim or complicated stocks 1:1. As Mr Echols states, the use of steadies such that they support the work true is mandatory. I've noticed from the deep stylus marks on other people patterns, that they must deflect their patterns a woeful degree when machining. You need a very deft touch to do fine work, and have the cutter head balanced to suit. Further to that, if you do machine nice slim sporter stocks, I'd wager that they are just as difficult to inlet, perhaps more so, than working from the block. When inletting from the block, the blank is comparatively rigid. With a dainty machined stock, use the same forces and you WILL bend that machined stock all over the place and get false smoke marks. I've seen this time and again. Gaps result, and the guy doing the machining gets it in the neck. With the slightly beefier stocks normally seen machined, this is not nearly such an issue.

What I now believe is that to run a duplicator competently for custom quality work, you need to be:

Firstly; a good general stocker.

Secondly; a good machinist, preferably one who understands machine tool alignment, scraping, grinding practices a distinct advantage (I bet Mr Hoenig sure did).

Then; You need to learn how to best apply those skills to making good patterns and running that machine to make good machined stocks. This ought to be blindingly obvious but it's often overlooked. Lastly, you need to be willing to work harder than is norm, for less per hour than is norm, and for a long, long time. IF you have all that, and you happen to be smart enough to run a business, you are in with a chance of success. Nothing more.

If you cannot make patterns, you must work with other peoples. With or without permission (heaven forbid). I've met very, very few duplicator owners who can stock from the blank well. That leaves them copying someone elses work in whole or modified form. If you cannot support the machine, you will produce "copies" of stocks (around factory quality), and zombie stockmakers or Joe Public out there might love them, but the best stockers sure as hell won't.

I think a lot of people miss the point to machining custom stocks entirely. One, it allows the operator to remove excess wood, and let the stock rest and move. This cannot be accomplished to the same extent cutting them from the block. Two, it allows the operator to chase grain flow, figure and colour better than cutting from the block. Three, it allows the maker and client the opportunity to develop a pattern that fits, can be shot, and can be fully approved by the customer for those aspects AND style. Huge advantages, to me at least. kda55 above seems well onto that aspect of it - good to see!

I think that people who want to buy a duplicator need to define very precisely where they sit in all that, and where they want to end up. Do they just want to produce factory quality stocks, or semi-custom ones? Or, a much better quality item? Do they have the skills to achieve what they want to, or can they learn them? Are they willing to devote the time? Sure it can be learned to whatever extent, but if you have a good innate aptitude for the work it will be far, far easier. I also believe that you can do this work for a lifetime, and never stop learning, until you reach the limits of your abilities to learn more. Then, your vanity might tell you you know it all. If it all seems so simple, you are either a genius, or more likely just plain old simple.

I'd encourage anyone to buy a machine and try, it's great fun and worthy work. But you will be cut down to size by YOUR ABILITY if you want to do FINE work. Ownership of the machine is a smallish portion of the ingredients to bake the cake. Hell, if a real stockmaker doesn't have the machine, he'll just make the stocks anyway!

For those who cannot stock from the block and want to modify existing stocks for pattern use, Australian gunsmith and stocker Bill Hambly-Clark Jnr wrote an article about exactly that in Guns & Game magazine, I think issue #88. Not sure if he did the sequel to it. It's worth a read and gives some foundation ideas. There has not been much written about this that I have seen. Bill is no fool, and few can run with his work quality.

On the subject of duplicator machines and specifically considering the cutter head assembly: Some types pivot around a central axis, such that the cutter motion prescribes an arc around that pivot point. Better get a machine with the cutter heads pivoting on a parallelogram so the cutter does not prescribe an arc of motion when pushing the cutter head up/down. The reason why this is much superior, I'll leave you to ponder. If you cannot fathom that, my best advice is to forget trying to do good work. Also, get a machine whose cutter spindles can be swung to whatever angle is needed, and be locked off. In my opinion if you don't have this, you are much disadvantaged.

At the end of all that, if you have the skills, the machines, the work space, the patterns......the years will have flown by and the expenses high unless you were very lucky. Other opportunities in life will have been sacrificed. If you started as a young buck, you will be starting to grey, but will have survived and grown much fortitude and learned a bit. It's a big risk for the hourly rate you'll get, even if you are Mr Echols. He charges a very fair hourly rate considering his fine workshop and finer skills.

Will you have a source of GOOD blanks? Not much point making that investment unless you do - although you could machine laminate I suppose. You need a reliable supplier, who cuts stable blanks that machine well and who will stand by a consistent product for the long haul. Or you must be at the whim of customer-supplied blanks, or blanks from a minefield of traders and be the wedge betwixt customer and supplier WHEN issues arise. One option might be to cut blanks for your own use, but beware therein lies more work, money, time, knowledge, time, time, time, money, knowledge haha.......oh, and machinery too. Will you get paid for that, too? There is much to be learned here, too.

On the subject of dust, I filtered down to 30 microns initially. It proved not enough. I got run down due to long, long hours (making patterns for SFA will do that!) and developed a long running series of chest infections which eventually lead to pneumonia. I didn't realise what wa wrong and tried to keep working through them. Google Atypical Pneumonia, or walking pneumonia. It's the fine dust that is hardest to control and I suggest more filtration than I had is required if you want to machine a large volume of blanks. Unless you are bullet proof, if you don't get this right from the outset, you are risking your health. For myself, wood from the American walnut species seem much more sensitising for allergies than European walnut, and whilst some of it is good stock wood I avoid all but the best of it. With thin-shelled walnut, personally I find walnut from the far eastern regions of Europe worse than the rest of it. You might find differently, but you need to think about the cumulative effects of exposure, including during sanding and checkering, and what chemicals you are exposing yourself to when doing finishing work. It all adds up.

If you do wind up doing machining work for other makers, will their patterns be true, and will they have the skills to fit your machinings without compromises. if not, how will that affect your reputation??? It's not necessarily an easy business..........

Great info Gordon.

My cyclone dust collector used to be the largest motor in my shop until recently. It's a 5 HP cyclone with a double stack hepa filter exhaust designed by Bill Pentz. I backed my duplicator into a corner with a wing wall along one side. Kind of like a backing a car into a narrow garage. The dust/chips get sucked out of the duplicator through a 6" hose at the far end of the machine. I stand at the opening of the "garage" when duplicating and have fresh air going past me the whole time I'm duplicating. My shop is only 22'X22' and jam packed with machines. There are no fines floating around the shop after running a stock and nothing landing on my machines.

I'm also not blowing purple snot every night like when I worked at Dakota Arms.

Thanks James. Great tip. I recently learned (I'm a slow learner) that 6" dust extraction is way better the the normal old 4". Cyclone is probably the way to go, I'll look into it. Perhaps with a hydrostatic charge filter to scavenge the last of it. That might be OTT.

By the by I really liked your posts on CNC application in tricky custom work. Bloody outstanding. In your career you have demonstrated a mastery of work in wood and steel encompassing both hand and manual machine work. Plus for some time, CNC. Pretty nifty, thanks for letting us see it.

Juglan's has many excellent points in regard to pattern making and expanding on it any further seems to be pretty useless on my part other than to say I know you will be a better pattern maker if yon can make a stock competently from the block. I also agree that to be proficient at all aspects of the stock duplication you really do need a Mill, Lathe and surface grinder to make specialized jigs and fixtures as well as maintain cutters and stylist.

I use to have a stable of patterns for magazine rifle and he's correct in saying that building and maintaining them is a never ending chore. When I sold my Allen 95% of the patterns went with that machine.

For my work I still have approx. 11 patterns that I will modify and change at will for the different barreled actions that I build rifles on and physical changes required to fit a particular client for his or her stock.

It works for me and doesn't for others, to each his own. Bill Hambly-Clark has sent me copies of his text on pattern making that Juglan's mentioned it's very well written as is any of Bills text. That's gunsmith with a lot of thunder. OZ should be proud with a lot of the talent found down under.

The quality of the work done off a pattern or from the solid blank will always be judged in the final result. I defy anyone to look at a well finished project and be able to tell if it was done by either method, it's just not possible so the argument as to which is truly custom is a lot of mis-spent and mis-guided energy.

Just one guys opinion

Mr. Echols

Are there any books in your future? I mean, do you plan to write any books about your work and your life and times as a custom builder.

Or is anyone writing any books about you.

I have books written about Mr. Pachmeyer and Mr. Miller, and of course many other books about custom guns written by the folks that made them. Mr. Hughes comes to mind.

How about a book or two? I know I'd buy one of each.

Now that everyone is scared off from even touching a wood stock, let me give my take on it. As everything else, there are two basic categories of people doing anything;
1: Top professionals like Duane who make a living at doing wood and metal work, and whose work is museum quality. They must have the best tools and the most efficient methods, and charge accordingly. Of course they have talent, but also must have machine tools to match.
2: The hobbyist who does things like cooking and boat building, for themselves; not for resale, and whose work is very good; but they can't spend the time that the full time pros do. For them, making a stock a week/month, on a low end 3 axis duplicator is fine; they are leaving .020 or so all around, and will hand fit and final shape it.
Patterns are easy to make from old stocks, bondo, epoxy, and wood.
This category does not need a CNC router, nor a 5 axis machine costing many thousands of dollars. The investment will never pay.
3: Guys in between the above two categories.
If you want to machine virtual drop in stocks every day, 8 hours a day, and try to make real money at it, then I recommend you find another business model. The market is not there for that. If you want to make a few 95% stocks for yourself and your friends, and sell a few for some beer money, fine; that will work.
Look at the Boyds model; CNC make everything, one size fits all, and everything is $147 finished. That is where the mass market is.

for us folks that are not machinists, could somebody describe - in sufficient detail - the difference between a 3 axis and a 5 axis stock duplicating machine.

It's in the works Lindy but I keep coloring outside the lines on the illustrations

Lots of information on the net about the topic.
Just think this way; X is movement left and right.
Y is front to back.
Z is up and down.
Tilting the cutting head left to right , or back to front at an angle, are the other two axes. You can visualize that there are a lot more possible.
Since your pattern and wood blank have to rotate even on the simplest of stock duplicators, you don't really need the 4th and 5th axis. You just can't drill a hole, because the cutting head doesn't pivot, and you can't rotate the stock on it's X axis, but that is not needed anyway. And they cost ten times more.
Watch this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKFFRZevXlM
and read this:https://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/11930/The-What-Why-and-How-of-5-Axis-CNC-Machining.aspx

Pretty sure that 9 spindle pictured above can't drill a straight guard screw hole. This includes the Northstar duplicators and Lester's machine.

The Allen machine and the Hoenig can. As will mine and SKBs.

Not that drilling a guard screw is the cat's meow.

This is sound advice. Unless you have loads of money to invest in machinery, marketing and manpower you'll never be able to get your prices as low as the Boyds and the Wenigs of the world. And I don't believe there's the demand for a high-end custom stock duplicator if that's all you plan to offer. It would seem that stock duplicating is a good service to offer as one of many gunsmithing services offered from someone in the business but would be hard to make any money as a stand-alone business. Just my opinion though.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Now that everyone is scared off from even touching a wood stock, let me give my take on it. As everything else, there are two basic categories of people doing anything;
1: Top professionals like Duane who make a living at doing wood and metal work, and whose work is museum quality. They must have the best tools and the most efficient methods, and charge accordingly. Of course they have talent, but also must have machine tools to match.
2: The hobbyist who does things like cooking and boat building, for themselves; not for resale, and whose work is very good; but they can't spend the time that the full time pros do. For them, making a stock a week/month, on a low end 3 axis duplicator is fine; they are leaving .020 or so all around, and will hand fit and final shape it.
Patterns are easy to make from old stocks, bondo, epoxy, and wood.
This category does not need a CNC router, nor a 5 axis machine costing many thousands of dollars. The investment will never pay.
3: Guys in between the above two categories.
If you want to machine virtual drop in stocks every day, 8 hours a day, and try to make real money at it, then I recommend you find another business model. The market is not there for that. If you want to make a few 95% stocks for yourself and your friends, and sell a few for some beer money, fine; that will work.
Look at the Boyds model; CNC make everything, one size fits all, and everything is $147 finished. That is where the mass market is.

"Look at the Boyds model; CNC make everything, one size fits all, and everything is $147 finish"

That's the problem with it. Not all are one size, their stocks are ugly, and you get terrible wood for $147.00.

Of course, they are not perfect but do fit the needs of 90% of shooters. Most of what the sell is laminated wood and plain straight walnut. Problem is that the figured walnut, custom alternatives that AR readers use, are in a much different category, price wise, and most shooters nowadays won't spend the money for a real custom stock. I get calls for them because the next alternative is at least ten times more.
Same reason the carmarket has Ford Fiestas, and Mercedes CL; there are buyers for both ends of the spectrum, but slightly more demand for the low end ones. (No one on AR, of course. )
There is a reason Boyds is successful; they filled the niche.

quote:

It's in the works Lindy but I keep coloring outside the lines on the illustrations

Darcy, I would buy your book, there are a lot of us who would. You're not getting any younger, neither are we. Finish your book, were waiting !

i used all 20 before i was tempted to even make ONE final stock for myself .. some of those turned into decent patterns or mules, but that's a tale of another color ...

frankly, i didn't charge for anything but the blank, until i was about 50 into it ... and most of those mine, .. btw, walnut makes fine coals for bbq

yeah, if i sent someone a $2,000 stock and their machine/machining ruined it, i would expect replacement

quote:

yeah, if i sent someone a $2,000 stock and their machine/machining ruined it, i would expect replacement

Is that in most custom maker's written contract?

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:

quote:

yeah, if i sent someone a $2,000 stock and their machine/machining ruined it, i would expect replacement

Is that in most custom maker's written contract?

lawyer?

quote:

Is that in most custom maker's written contract?

Never had a contract,lots of handshakes. For me simply what I felt was fair. If the customers blank had a void or flaw I would simply stop and ask if he wanted me to continue.