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You gentlemen are a far cry from Rufus, a wood supplier to the students at CST, he did ours to about 80% and you had plenty of meat to work with. One I remember he did not machine was a stock of all rosewood. Down got into the wood market about the time I graduated, but he had some nice looking wood, but I never worked any of his. CO School of Trades 1976, Gunsmithing | |||
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Rufus Kline ! boy talk about a memory slap. Do you ever recall John Lux ? He owned Colorado Custom Gunstocks just West of CST in Golden? | |||
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I knew and bought a couple of blanks from Rufus, but did not know Lux. One blank I had turned by J. Earl Bridges, on what I believe was your old machine. | |||
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It more than likely was my old Allen that he used as I think it was the only machine he ver owned but I could be wrong. J earl was and I'm sure still is a very, very nice guy and a pretty damn good stockmaker Rufus would never sell me any real great wood unless he was going to get to turn it. I really wanted a piece of English he had and finally had Dean Wentworth go over and buy it for me. Oh the good/bad old days, misspent youth at its finest | |||
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I don't remember Lux , but I sure remember Dean, he and Sid and Ken did the wood working section with Kreockle filling in. Ralph Bon was there at the time and Bill Dowtin was the stock instructor at night. Larry from MN came while I, can't remember what he did maybe Psuedo was there. Any body was better than Jack. CO School of Trades 1976, Gunsmithing | |||
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Sitting only a few feet away from me is a Model 12 that I restocked as one of my 1st projects at CST and it is truly a dog in every sense of the word !!!!!!!!!!! That Blank came from Rufus and is a granite hard piece of fiddle back Maple. That stock has now been appropriately turned into a pattern stock that has been shortened, spliced, offset, built up and Bondoed to beat hell to fit my daughter. Dewey Vicknair put a rib on it last fall and we then altered and fit the stock as my daughter shot clay after clay with it in the last 12 months. We finally have it just right and the percentage of broken birds is great. At one point for grins and as an experiment I did open up the grip another 1/2" and added another 3/8" in LOP which lowered the comb at the heel another 3/16" and she couldn't have hit a clay sitting on the trap house roof. After 2 more trips to the range and with little success she handed it back to me and said "change it back to what is was". I did and now she's back to breaking birds. Goes to show you how a pattern stock can be put to good use Sometime this winter I'll start wrapping a piece of Old World french on it to replace the Maple I got form Rufus, it has a served a greater purpose all these years later. | |||
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I kept in touched with Dean for a while when he moved back to Marble Rock Iowa and with Doc K and Eldon Adams even after they retired. Curt Crum must have been there the same time you were and later went on to work with David Miller. Curt was a very strong talent even then and I pestered the hell out of him when he'd come in on days and work on his own stuff. John Lux made the intro for Crum to Miller and the rest was history in that regard. I then went to Millers with John to sell David some blanks and to apply for a job, got the job and was then let go even before I got there. Strange how it all worked out, but worth every bump in the road. | |||
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I don't remember Crum but there were a lot of guys there then. I ran with a couple guys from FL, one is an associate in the Guild, others were Wayne Novak(Novak pistol sights) ,Jack Mitchell , a Gun digest author,Art Leckie went to take over Austin Buehler's Pistol shop and Sterling Davenport, he could flat checker a gunstock,Pete Forthofer, he's out your way making knives. Didn't you work with Fisher for a while? Talk about let go, I did the R & D for Winslow for a classic stock , to tap the non California market. We cut one on the machine, got it to where I was satisfied, the guy on the machine was really good. I worked into a rifle ready to put finish on and they did not need me anymore. I had it right, checkered metal grip cap, Old English pad, no fore end tip. That's the way it goes. CO School of Trades 1976, Gunsmithing | |||
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All of this stuff should be in a book before its lost forever! [quote]I then went to Millers with John to sell David some blanks and to apply for a job, got the job and was then let go even before I got there.[quote] But you must have remained on very good terms with him as he wrote very highly of you in an article he did on you for Rifle Magazine. [quote]Never had a contract,lots of handshakes. For me simply what I felt was fair.[quote] Precisely the reason to have a contract! | |||
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Very good reading. I have all the books connected to a lot of the men you mentioned. I took a class with Pete Grisel a few years back in Oregon. He was very knowledgeable and talented but not very good at teaching/communicating. Later took a class with Clayton Nelson in Colorado who was certainly talented and a very good instructor. Met Sterling Davenport at a Dallas gun show a number of years back. Very nice guy. Craftsman | |||
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A Hoenig machine? | |||
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No; anyone who wants a picture of it needs to PM me their email address. I can't post a picture here, nor can I PM one. | |||
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you could.  | |||
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IDK -- but it would be, in writing, if i sent out a 2k blank to someone else to mess with opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jeff I am curious what your contract would say if you were sending out a 2K blank for some work. | |||
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Kevin, You are the lawyer. Why don't you recommend some language or have you never drafted contract language? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I cannot ethically do that here. Drafting language that the parties can agree on is probably the most difficult part of the whole transaction, and usually isn't done until a host of other formation issues are completed first First thing to do is determine your needs. Second would be to consult with opposing counsel, or party if not represented. Determine whether an agreement can even be made. (If not discuss alternatives.) Perhaps exchange what is called a nonbinding "Term Sheet" Then: Review law that may be specific to that particular agreement. For a contract like this the main issues would be identification of the specific piece of wood and metalwork, identification of the work to be performed and the time to perform it, identification of the amount to be paid, identification of what amounts to a breach (nonperformance) on either side, and identification of what might be considered as damage to the wood and possible remedies. You don't have to be or retain a lawyer. You can use a General Contract for Services form and change the language to suit your needs. There are examples of general service contracts on the internet. Find one, talk to the other party, change the document to meet your needs, have each party sign, and provide a copy. Then, if either party feels there is a breach or that damage to the $2000 blank has taken place there is something to fall back on if litigation becomes necessary. | |||
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The stakes are too low to pay for a lawyer; stock duplicators make 1/20th of the hourly lawyer rate. I self insure on my end, and if the recipient welches on our verbal contract, then I will extract the appropriate remuneration by other means. No need to specify what those might, or might not, be. No one has ever needed it. It is a very simple transaction; party A agrees to do these tasks, and party B agrees to do those actions, and both agree. Lawyers will muck it up for sure with a 20 page contract costing a few $K; they are trained that way. | |||
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I agree. No need for an expensive lawyer to write a contract to determine what happens when somebody doesn't do something, or somebody wrecks something. Just write it all down and get each other to agree to it. My point is to make sure and write it all down. Everyone here would like to think that in the event of a problem the other person will do he right thing. Most people usually do. But there have been numerous instances reported on here where somebody didn't do the right thing and now they are SOL because they didn't have a contract to say what the right things were. For an expensive job I would insist on a written contract. YOU should to. | |||
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I should but I am not good on the business end; my MBA taught me little of practical value! | |||
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You should go to your local car dealerships and ask what their hourly shop rate is. Then, pay attention to how many people are working there. Think about how many qualified mechanics there are in this country. Many of those not afraid to work on a $60K car without getting a case of the vapors. Even the really good mechanics can be replaced in a reasonable amount of time. The guy running a duplicator in his own shop has to do every single job there is at a dealership. Order parts, sell his work, clean the toilet, duplicate a stock, etc. At the end of the day, there isn't a lot of time left after doing all the non hourly rate jobs around the shop if you're just chasing down a 2-3 hour duplicating jobs. By the time you talk on the phone, answer several emails, receive the customer's stock blank & pattern, set up the stock in the machine (which may be twisted like a pretzel and sold by a wood hawk as a super great deal), machine the stock, send the requested pictures to the customer, pack it in a box suitable for a fragile bare stock and haul it off to UPS or USPS, the day's pretty much shot. Oh, and the profit from the few hours of actual machine time has to pay all the overhead of the business, pay for insurance, retirement, blah blah blah. Now, how many guys are out there that can actually machine a QUALITY semi inlet? Are they as replaceable as the grease monkey above? When Ed Shulin was running stocks for pennies on the dollar, he didn't have to make a living at it. He could bang out a stock in record time leaving enough wood so there wouldn't be any gaps, but it would take a lot of time to inlet it. Most of his work was for the students at TSJC that needed the experience inletting anyway and many of those stocks didn't need to get packed and shipped. In addition to that he usually sold the wood the the students as well. I'm pretty sure I could make more money building and selling duplicators than running my own full time. Probably why I only use my own duplicator for complete custom projects. Now I gotta run out to my other shop and finish rebuilding the tranny in my kids Tahoe. | |||
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I usually worry about somebody's hourly wage only when I know they are making way more than me.  | |||
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Right now I am participating in a 100 hour pro bono challenge. I an donating 100 hours of my time to help poor and disadvantaged people. No paid holidays here. Never! | |||
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ahh, well, you are in the right forum to have no worries then ... opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Very generous of you to do so. | |||
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Unless a person on this board is retired and getting the minimum social security I need to worry about them.  quote]Very generous of you to do so.{quote Thank you Craigster. Appreciate that. Its very easy for people to donate their time when they have a big law firm paying for it. Not so easy when nobody is paying for it and your not making any money otherwise. But I've done it for a long time so no point in stopping now. | |||
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I would cut stocks for 3 smiths that owned duplicators. They said they made more per hour cutting metal than wood. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Posted by Lindy2:
Bullsh*t! you can simply caveat any language you post by saying: "This is a sample of language that could be used and does not constitute legal advice and is not a recommendation for any particular person or transaction. Any actual recommended language would require consultation and retaining me as your attorney." Sample contract language is all over the internet as you state. If the above is not the right set of caveats, it should take you another 30 seconds to come up with the right modifications. If you can't, then please quote the provision of Bar Ethics that you would be violating so we can come up with a work around. Here, I can help. I will appoint you as my attorney if you will do it pro bono and I hereby waive attorney client privilege. Need any other waivers? Now, what contract language would you suggest to cover the issue presented. You don't need to consult with the theoretical other side because I am asking you to protect me as the purchaser of the duplicating service. And yes, I am throwing the BS flag on your response. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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No problem. If you want I'll do it myself.  | |||
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Kevin, Only one major difference. My response contains substantive information. Yours contains nothing. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I agree. | |||
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