All,

I will not pretend to be a Mauser expert, but would like to get some input from anybody who has gone thru this.

I am scheming a .338 WM on a commercial FN action and looking at the Blackburn guard follower option for its excellent reputation (never owned any) and the fact that they (Blackburn) indicated that it would hold 4 down.

My question (for now) is what mods, if any need to be performed on the action to work with this bottom metal? It is a 270 to start so obviously there will be work involved insofar as the bolt face, extractor, and rails are concerned, and no, I don't plan on doing any of this myself. I just want to understand what work will be needed to make this work. When I asked the kid on the phone at Blackburn he said it would "bolt right up" but he was not confidence inspiring.

Any thoughts or experiences from people who may have gone this route would be appreciated!

TIA

I would say anybody that can get there hands on blackburn bottom metal to be an expert......lol, still waiting on mine.

They fit very well but your stock will need replacing if it is a drop-box. If you have a synthetic you might be able to build-up the bottom and re-shape it.

And like Billy said, don't be in no hurry.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
They fit very well but your stock will need replacing if it is a drop-box. If you have a synthetic you might be able to build-up the bottom and re-shape it.

And like Billy said, don't be in no hurry.

Tigger is quite right, and I am amazed at the
number of gunnuts who opt for standard guards
because most manufacturers don't offer a "dropped" stock.

Adding on is a great way to have a dropped synthetic! Consider it if you haven't! But
make sure you don't use bondo. Use a filler
bonded with acraglass gel. Bondo does not
adhere well!

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
They fit very well but your stock will need replacing if it is a drop-box. If you have a synthetic you might be able to build-up the bottom and re-shape it.

And like Billy said, don't be in no hurry.

Looks like it hasn't changed in 30 years!!!! Wait, Wait and more waits, I was told 3-4 years ago it ahd gotten better, but I quess not from these responses

At the risk of sounding blasphemous what makes Blackburn bottom metal so much better than any of the others that you can order and have delivered to your door the next day?

If this was someone other than an “icon†everyone on this site would be screaming bloody murder over the terrible customer service and the ridiculous time frame for filling pre-paid orders.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
At the risk of sounding blasphemous...

Yep, you sound blasphemous!

quote:

Originally posted by Glen71:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
At the risk of sounding blasphemous...

Yep, you sound blasphemous!

Hey, Glen!

Being blasphemous comes pretty easily to me sometimes.

As the saying goes: Sacred cows sometimes make the best hamburgers!

I have seen other businesses on here get trashed almost non-stop for their customer service (or lack of same) and yet others seem to be immune from any of this...just because of who they are, or more accurately, who they WERE.

"Being blasphemous comes pretty easily to me sometimes"

Well, I am glad we got that cleared up.

A few of things about Blackburn.

1. the shape of his triggerguard is unique, easily recongnizeable, and looks good.

2. He has done the work with regard to feeding issues, and his boxes just plain work.

3. He is about $100 cheaper than Sunny Hill on most of his stuff if you buy the unpolished (which I have bought before and quite frankly there isn't much work to bring it up to snuff)

4. He is so well known in the trade.

5. He can be a pretty nice guy. He gave me a very nice tour of his shop and showed me all of his machinerey many years ago when he was still in Springville.

#2 is the big reason for me but I would say Blackburn's unpolished bottoms are closer to $200 less than Sunnyhill's, not $100. I can stand a fair bit of carpal tunnel syndrome for $200 (I have good insurance, LOL).

Name recognition is also important for someone like me who turns guns over from time to time.

It does not matter how much cheaper the box is if you can not get it. I have been waiting for a year for a mex mauser box. At least this time I did not pay in advance. Ted is a nice guy but that does nothing if he can not deliver. I do like him and have heard a myriad of his excuses and some are rather humorous.

I do not know of anyone who does not have the box shape right. It is not a big mystery. Feeding happens above the box, not in it.

Customstox

Your comments (which I don't disagree with) beg the question. Why have you waited a year for the Blackburn instead of just buying something else?

Look, Ted is a nice guy true enough. But, his guards are not magic. The bow could use some refinement. More importantly, the magazine dimensions could use refinement. They are not correctly proportioned to the cartridges they are advertised as being made for. For example, the short mag bottom metal is too narrow for the Win Mags. Sure, they can be fixed but you shouldn't have to. More frustrating is the fact that even the short mag bottom metal requires more atention to the feed ramp than it should.

Yes, they are pretty nice pieces, and yes, you can get a nice discount if you buy the unfinished version but like Chic said, what good is that if you can't get them. Other makers have been crucified here for not answering emails and in general behaving toward his customers in a similar fashion as Ted.

PoleAx

Looks to me like you are agreeing with Customstox on one thing and disagreeing with him on another.

Customstox said feeding is above the box, which is true. Now you are saying that the feed ramp requires more attention due to something on one of Ted's boxes. Obviously the feed ramp is above the box!!!

So, which is it? I know that with the boxes I have purchased from Ted all have worked very well indeed for their intended cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
PoleAx

Looks to me like you are agreeing with Customstox on one thing and disagreeing with him on another.

Customstox said feeding is above the box, which is true. Now you are saying that the feed ramp requires more attention due to something on one of Ted's boxes. Obviously the feed ramp is above the box!!!

So, which is it? I know that with the boxes I have purchased from Ted all have worked very well indeed for their intended cartridge.

Working well and working perfectly are different. Many folks manage to get the original bottom metal to feed magnums well. That does not make their geometry correct. Also, well is a relative term.

As to the feed ramp, that has to do with the fact that the bottom metal positions the magazine further forward than needed. There is room to go backward the small amount required. Why he goes forward is beyond me.

Two different things entirely.

22WRF,
Do you know of someone else that makes one for a 1910 Mexican?

The Paul Mauser box design is based on economy of space using the specific cartridge it was designe for. That is, the box is full of cartridges, they are touching the sides, and both of the cartridges below. If the box is made a bit narrower then it only touches one round one round immediately below it and not both. It will still feed and do so just fine from my experience. I was not aware of the foreward problem but it is not surprising.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
"Being blasphemous comes pretty easily to me sometimes"

Well, I am glad we got that cleared up.

A few of things about Blackburn.

1. the shape of his triggerguard is unique, easily recongnizeable, and looks good.

2. He has done the work with regard to feeding issues, and his boxes just plain work.

3. He is about $100 cheaper than Sunny Hill on most of his stuff if you buy the unpolished (which I have bought before and quite frankly there isn't much work to bring it up to snuff)

4. He is so well known in the trade.

5. He can be a pretty nice guy. He gave me a very nice tour of his shop and showed me all of his machinerey many years ago when he was still in Springville.

Well, number one is a personal opinion, number two can be said about any of the guard/boxes out there, number three is only valid if you actually get one, and numbers four and five are, again, personal opinion only.

My only point was that he seems to be allowed far more slack when it comes to terrible customer service and timely shipments than are other businesses out there who aren’t “legends†in the business.

How long does it take him to cash your check or charge your credit card? I bet he has no problem doing that in a timely manner.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
#2 is the big reason for me but I would say Blackburn's unpolished bottoms are closer to $200 less than Sunnyhill's, not $100. I can stand a fair bit of carpal tunnel syndrome for $200 (I have good insurance, LOL).

Name recognition is also important for someone like me who turns guns over from time to time.

Sunny Hill’s Mauser bottom metal sells for $352.00. Are you saying that that Blackburn’s are $152.00?

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
#2 is the big reason for me but I would say Blackburn's unpolished bottoms are closer to $200 less than Sunnyhill's, not $100. I can stand a fair bit of carpal tunnel syndrome for $200 (I have good insurance, LOL).

Name recognition is also important for someone like me who turns guns over from time to time.

Sunny Hill’s Mauser bottom metal sells for $352.00. Are you saying that that Blackburn’s are $152.00?

Who has them for $350.00?

Thanks,
Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
#2 is the big reason for me but I would say Blackburn's unpolished bottoms are closer to $200 less than Sunnyhill's, not $100. I can stand a fair bit of carpal tunnel syndrome for $200 (I have good insurance, LOL).

Name recognition is also important for someone like me who turns guns over from time to time.

Sunny Hill’s Mauser bottom metal sells for $352.00. Are you saying that that Blackburn’s are $152.00?

Who has them for $350.00?

Thanks,
Terry

Brownells...part number 848-165-000

Customstox

No, I don't know anyone else who makes a 1910 Mex, but I do know that there are some pretty talented metalsmiths out there that would modify the one that came with your action very nicely. You know them as well, and probably most of them personally.


Rick

"How long does it take him to cash your check or charge your credit card? I bet he has no problem doing that in a timely manner."

A few months ago I purchased a couple of his triggers. When I ordered I specified that he was not to charge my credit card until the day of shipment. He honored that request. Good enough for me.

Wow. Cool discussion. I met Ted at the NRA Convention in SLC in 1978. Guess what the customers were complaining about then? Some things never seem to change. I agree that his trigger bow has a sleek look to it, but found out in1979 that ir didn't work too well with an insulated glove..and the trigger was laid back ar the back of the bow. That's why the Oberndorf has been my favorite. Used to make 36 mexican guards with modified Ron Lampert M70 guard bows. I have the correct formula for Mauser box dimensions, a la Mauser, to get the precise cartidge relationship. If I can find it and anyone is interested, I'll post it.

Rick,

I have bought Sunny Hill which was in stock, also been times they didnt have what I wanted in stock.

Not sure all that many choices when you get into drop box or 375 length. As far as I know, its blackburn or Sunny- Hill, unless a guy wants to spend a ton and get custom from scratch.

Blackburn is quite a bit less.

Sunny Hill #440 - $490
Blackburn 14X - is about $350 if I remember correctly, I have it on order.

I'll wait a few months to save a few bucks.

22WRF stated:

quote:

Why have you waited a year for the Blackburn instead of just buying something else?

Now you can't "buy" something else if no one makes it. You asked the question and I answered it. Now if you want to rephrase the world, you could have me buying an action that fits what he builds.

To be honest and blunt, I have my reasons for waiting and they are my business and not yours. Hope this ends this conversation to your liking because you aren't getting any more.

I will take that to mean that:

1. the shape of his triggerguard is unique, easily recongnizeable, and looks good.

2. He has done the work with regard to feeding issues, and his boxes just plain work.

3. He is about $100 cheaper than Sunny Hill on most of his stuff if you buy the unpolished.

4. He is so well known in the trade.

Back to the original topic.. Aside fromThe possible stock alterations or replacement The mag box will require fitting. If you are using one of Ted's mag boxes that is proper to the .338 you will most likely have to remachine the magazine mortice in the bottom of the action.

quote:

Originally posted by Gringo Cazador:
Rick,

I have bought Sunny Hill which was in stock, also been times they didnt have what I wanted in stock.

Not sure all that many choices when you get into drop box or 375 length. As far as I know, its blackburn or Sunny- Hill, unless a guy wants to spend a ton and get custom from scratch.

Blackburn is quite a bit less.

Sunny Hill #440 - $490
Blackburn 14X - is about $350 if I remember correctly, I have it on order.

I'll wait a few months to save a few bucks.

Billy,

Sunny Hill’s #440 is $392.00 at Brownell’s. That is the model for .375H&H full length mags with dropped magazine. I’m taking that right out of page #14 in Brownell’s #58 catalog.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but the Sunny Hill #440 from Brownell's is $490 retail and $392 if you get the dealer pricing. I do. Hmmm...maybe I should start stocking some of these!

quote:

Originally posted by Glen71:
I don't have a dog in this fight, but the Sunny Hill #440 from Brownell's is $490 retail and $392 if you get the dealer pricing. I do. Hmmm...maybe I should start stocking some of these!

The way that most people on here are always talking about building and fixing rifles for people I assumed that they either have an FFL or know someone who does so they don’t have to pay retail for parts. Obviously, my assumption was wrong.

Rick,
thanks for pointing the sunnyhill price.. and it's on hand.. pretty compeling point... it being on hand, and if it's in the model you want, probaly a good plan.

To be fair, the sunnyhill price quoted is on the 420, which isn't the drop box 430, that's a bit more.

I think all of them are about 150-200 TOO MUCH for what you get and machine time, retail that is.

then again, I am still hoping for matt williams to produce his oberndorf mauser bottoms for 200-250

jeffe

Well I did not mean to have this turn into a debate about the merits of product a vs product b or the service of firm A vs B....oh well. That siad I appreciate the comments of all hwo chimed in!

Perhaps I didn't express my orginal question/comcern succinctly enough, but David seemed to catch it.

Blackburn states that all of their item are correct for the given ctg, in this case I am interested specifically in their #17 for the "old" short mags ie 338 WM. So, as Chic points out there is no real magic to this whole stack angle idea, really quite simple.

My thought was that if the mag geometry truly was correct for the .338 WM case, it would have to be wider than that for the '06 case. Since they (Blackburn) also say that the #17 will hold 4 down, and it is not a drop mag version by their description anyway, it seems it (the std #17) would have to be wider. As David said, if it wider then you would naturally have to widen the mag mortise in the action. My puzzlement was that the young guy on the phone at Blackburn said that no mods were required of the receiver in order to work with the #17 guard, and I just did not believe him. So basically, I was wondering if anybody had gone this route and had first hand experience with this.

For the record, I am planning/scheming and don't have a stock yet, just an action looking for something interesting to become.

That said, I have an Browning FN Highpower in 7mm RM that will feed a mag full of empty cases slicker than any other rifle I have (including p-64 model 70) from its "wrong geometry" magazine that only holds 3 down. So I know that this whole mag geometry question is not the be all and end all when it comes to at least good function.

regards,

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Blackbart2:
W My puzzlement was that the young guy on the phone at Blackburn said that no mods were required of the receiver in order to work with the #17 guard, and I just did not believe him. So basically, I was wondering if anybody had gone this route and had first hand experience with this.


regards,

Bob

Technically the lad on the phone is correct, you do not need to moify the receiver for the new btotom metal to bolt on.

You will however need to modify the "mortises" as someone said in order to get the cartridges to exit the magazine properly and to prevent the follower from hanging up because as you say the mag width will be wider than the opening at the bottom of the receiver. You will also need to work on the feed rails & ramp to get the cartridges to feed properly. But, you need do nothing to simply fit the bottom metal to the receiver, that is a bolt on afair. It is not however plug and play.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Rick,
thanks for pointing the sunnyhill price.. and it's on hand.. pretty compeling point... it being on hand, and if it's in the model you want, probaly a good plan.

To be fair, the sunnyhill price quoted is on the 420, which isn't the drop box 430, that's a bit more.

I think all of them are about 150-200 TOO MUCH for what you get and machine time, retail that is.

then again, I am still hoping for matt williams to produce his oberndorf mauser bottoms for 200-250

jeffe

You’re correct, the price on the #430 is $392.00 not $352.00...I read it wrong in scanning from left to right on the page.

My original question didn’t concern price anyway, I just wanted to know what made Blackburn’s bottom metal so much better than the others. If it’s the cheaper price then that’s a good reason to go with it, but has nothing to do it being “better.â€

Personally, I like the Mauser bottom metal that came on the original military rifles...but that’s just a personal preference based on nothing more than I like the way they look compared to the “fancy†ones sold by Blackburn, Fisher (made by Blackburn) and Sunny Hill.

Matt Williams will not put a simple draft on the bottom metal he peddles now, so why would anyone want to mess with a mauser box he builds?

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Matt Williams will not put a simple draft on the bottom metal he peddles now, so why would anyone want to mess with a mauser box he builds?

AMEN!

When I told Ted Blackburn I was a home gun-builder he generously offered the dealer discounts to me; an offer Brownell's or Sunny Hill have yet to make so Blackburn is that much cheaper for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Matt Williams will not put a simple draft on the bottom metal he peddles now, so why would anyone want to mess with a mauser box he builds?

Our new bottom metal for Remingtons and Winchesters will have a 2.5deg. draft on the sides and with the Oberdorf release system.
They're being made from drop-hammer forgings of one piece and not a mechanical or welded assembly like we've made in the past and that Sunny Hill makes currently.

Here's some pics of the BDL model in the prototype phase....We've been told that it will be about the second week in July before we receive our first order of production forgings, but we've been getting more than one delay on that since we started this back in November.



Here's the raw forging prior to machining...


Here's the part through our first prototype machine op with the draft on the sides.



Here's the assembly in the second operation showing some detail on the guard bow.

Our forging will allow us to manufacture the Mauser footprint, but we have been debating on the integral box issue and haven't come up with any hard fast decisions as to how we will attack that at a price that will be competitive with the rest of our products. We are open to suggestions at this point on that issue alone, but our main focus is going to be on the Winchester and Remington assemblies in both standard and drop-box configurations.

As a point of reference for price; our short-action and long-action BDl's will be selling for $99.95 in-the-white.

These are true drop-in parts. No inletting will be required with your factory stocks and no changing of the magazine box either. Also, you'll be able to utilize the jewell, shilen, Timney, and Rifle Basix triggers on these assemblies without modifications to the trigger or bottom metal.

All of the bottom metal that we will be producing in the future for all models will have draft and the Oberndorf-style release system.

quote:

triggerguard1: Our new bottom metal for Remingtons and Winchesters will have a 2.5deg. draft on the sides and with the Oberdorf release system.

What about 98 Mausers ?

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:

quote:

triggerguard1: Our new bottom metal for Remingtons and Winchesters will have a 2.5deg. draft on the sides and with the Oberdorf release system.

What about 98 Mausers ?

quote:

All of the bottom metal that we will be producing in the future for all models will have draft and the Oberndorf-style release system.

That includes the Mausers too

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Matt Williams will not put a simple draft on the bottom metal he peddles now, so why would anyone want to mess with a mauser box he builds?

Well Glen gave the AMEN so I will give the Hallelujah.......and btw - that shit (the draft) should have been done in the first place. Pardon me Im a bit grouchy lately.