THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM GUNSMITHING FORUM

Accuratereloading.com    The Accurate Reloading Forums    THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS  Hop To Forum Categories  Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading  Hop To Forums  Gunsmithing    Question for the Mauser experts on Blackburn guards...
Page 1 2 

Moderators: jeffeosso
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Question for the Mauser experts on Blackburn guards...
 Login/Join
 
Moderator
Picture of jeffeosso
posted Hide Post
Matt,
make the mauser with a loose box, not an attached one. That should VERY MUCH simplify production, and would allow for basically 2 footprints, std and drop, with the box of the users choice.

should the USER want it attached, it would be a 25 buck welding job.


Bill,
sorry you are grouchy lately... but the thing is Matt and co DID change the design... i know for certain I didn't do everything right the first 10 rifles I made...

they got better, with feedback...


Matt, please also consider a smallring spacing, for 96's and mexican mausers, which having a floating box will allow the user (or gunsmith) to set it forward or back, depending on 96 or mexican...

I BELIEVE that would also allow it to fit yugo 48s, which i THINK are the same spacing as the small rings, but I could be wrong.

jeffe


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 40229 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
No Jeffe, he is just talking about fixing it. He has not delivered anything yet, like the action.


Chic Worthing
"Life is Too Short To Hunt With An Ugly Gun"
http://webpages.charter.net/cworthing/
 
Posts: 4917 | Location: Wenatchee, WA, USA | Registered: 17 December 2001Reply With Quote
Moderator
Picture of jeffeosso
posted Hide Post
Chic,
fair enough.
jeffe


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 40229 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Jeffe,
You're correct, the intermediate length actions Do have the same action screw spacing as the small rings. (7-5/8"). That would be all model 24's EXCEPT the VZ24, plus the M48 Yugo and FN 29.
 
Posts: 220 | Location: SW Missouri USA | Registered: 13 January 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Matt,
make the mauser with a loose box, not an attached one. That should VERY MUCH simplify production, and would allow for basically 2 footprints, std and drop, with the box of the users choice.

should the USER want it attached, it would be a 25 buck welding job.


Bill,
sorry you are grouchy lately... but the thing is Matt and co DID change the design... i know for certain I didn't do everything right the first 10 rifles I made...

they got better, with feedback...


Matt, please also consider a smallring spacing, for 96's and mexican mausers, which having a floating box will allow the user (or gunsmith) to set it forward or back, depending on 96 or mexican...

I BELIEVE that would also allow it to fit yugo 48s, which i THINK are the same spacing as the small rings, but I could be wrong.

jeffe


With the popularity of Mauser’s for sporting rifles I am amazed that companies haven’t offered what you are suggesting.

There is no practical advantage to the Mauser/Springfield integral boxes on a sporting rifle, and there are several disadvantages to them both in time/cost of manufacture and for the user should he ever want to change caliber.
 
Posts: 4574 | Location: Valencia, California | Registered: 16 March 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Rick,
I agree, they serve a purpose on military rifles (you can't lose it or install it incorrectly), but not at all necessary for a sporter.
 
Posts: 220 | Location: SW Missouri USA | Registered: 13 January 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of triggerguard1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Customstox:
No Jeffe, he is just talking about fixing it. He has not delivered anything yet, like the action.


Well Chic,
My bank account that shows nearly $30,000.00 worth of investment in forging dies and raw materials in my book is a little more than talking.
There isn't a single manufacturer of bottom metal that has ever made a true drop-in for a BDL yet, let alone one being made from forgings. The reason, is that it isn't as easy as it looks and these things do take some time and extensive programming work.
We wanted the BDL out of the way first and the Winchesters to follow. After that we'll be onto Mausers as time allows with the action work.

I realize that the individual customers have wanted draft on the bottom metal from the beginning, but with our method of making these at a competitive price for Winchester, it wasn't feasible, nor did Winchester even want it. Now that Winchester doesn't have a dog in the fight, we are moving towards making them the best available, as well as affordable.

Even without the draft, the bottom metal can be inletted quite nicely and has been done by ourselves, as well as hundreds, if not thousands of our customers. Draft definitely makes the job much easier, but the lack of it doesn't keep someone from being able to do a very high quality inlet on a custom stock.
Kent Bowerly, Ed LaPour, NECG, D'Arcy Echols, Mark Penrod and Mike Kizzler are among a few high end builders that have produced very nice results with our bottom metal lacking draft.
But, with all that said, we prefer draft, just like everyone else does....That's why we're going to be offering it on all the bottom metal we make from here on out.


Williams Machine Works

 
Posts: 1021 | Location: Prineville, OR 97754 | Registered: 14 July 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Well Matt, like your action, so far you are just talk and no action - pun intended. The proof is in the pudding.


Chic Worthing
"Life is Too Short To Hunt With An Ugly Gun"
http://webpages.charter.net/cworthing/
 
Posts: 4917 | Location: Wenatchee, WA, USA | Registered: 17 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of triggerguard1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Customstox:
Well Matt, like your action, so far you are just talk and no action - pun intended. The proof is in the pudding.


If I'm all talk, then what are those pics on page one of this thread???

I'm no good at photoshop, so what you're seeing in those pics is where it's progressing.

Posted that because I assumed that others on this thread might be interested in seeing how it's coming along......others are not.


Williams Machine Works

 
Posts: 1021 | Location: Prineville, OR 97754 | Registered: 14 July 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
So is that the production line? Or is it someone experimenting with a mill? Get a product out and I will believe you. Like I said, the proof is in the pudding. Not in the dirty bowls.


Chic Worthing
"Life is Too Short To Hunt With An Ugly Gun"
http://webpages.charter.net/cworthing/
 
Posts: 4917 | Location: Wenatchee, WA, USA | Registered: 17 December 2001Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Matt,

I own two of your Remington 700 BDL bottom metal assemblies and the only complaint that I have is that you did not include any literature along with them to inform the buyer of:

1. They are not drafted (you figure that out real quick, but it would have been nice to know up front)

2. That the BDL assembly requires an ADL mag box.

3. That they only work with factory triggers.

That info appears on your web site (don’t know when you put it on there) but it is not included with the product, at least it didn’t come with the ones I got.

Other than that, I like your bottom metal since I am one of the few people out there that doesn’t care for the bow shape or the release on the Obendorf style. Just a personal preference, but that’s why they have chocolate and vanilla!
 
Posts: 4574 | Location: Valencia, California | Registered: 16 March 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
Triggerguard

I am just curious if your Action is going to use drop forgings as well.

Looking forward to your continued success with all of these projects.
 
Posts: 7090 | Registered: 11 January 2005Reply With Quote
new member
posted Hide Post
Does anybody know the actual weight of Blackburn and Sunny Hill assemblies? This would be for a Win. M70 Classic, standard depth.

Thanks in advance!
 
Posts: 14 | Registered: 02 November 2005Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
The M98 was never a cost cutting exercise, hence they put a relative effort into the bottom metal.
A fine mauser rifle project deserves nothing less than a full integral bottom metal, even a much higher priced($1500)individually made full custom bottom metal unit is not out of order on the apropriate rifle.

But even for the guy who is building a less extreme but quality M98rig on a fine military reciever, a 1pc Blackburn $300, does not seem unreasonable to me.In fact I see them as very good value.they rightfully compliment each other.

Compromising the M98 reciever&bottom metal design resulted in the m70&2-3pc bottom metal .Sounds right,cheaper bottom metals rightfully go with the cheaper cost cutting created M70 and rem700. I prefer to keep it that way.

I have seen the 338winM98 Blackburn bottom metal you ask about. it comes with a dedicated new manufacture follower that is wider to suit the wider dimensions of the box.
 
Posts: 2134 | Registered: 12 May 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Tex21
posted Hide Post
Given the relative lack of options available for the hobbyists, any new production bottom metal is a step in the right direction.

I cheer Matt on from the sidelines and hope the best for him.


Jason

"Chance favors the prepared mind."
 
Posts: 1449 | Location: Dallas, Texas | Registered: 24 February 2004Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Would some one provide contact Info. for
Blackburn bottom metal.

Thank You
 
Posts: 65 | Registered: 05 June 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of triggerguard1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 22WRF:
Triggerguard

I am just curious if your Action is going to use drop forgings as well.

Looking forward to your continued success with all of these projects.


Yes they will.

We didn't want to offer our actions with our standard bottom metal, knowing that most customers who are wanting a true custom action on a finely finished rifle are going to replace that bottom metal with a Blackburn or Sunny Hill assembly. We wanted it right the first time; from bottom metal, top-of-line M70 trigger, double gas flanged bolt shroud, and the rest of the bells and whistles.


Williams Machine Works

 
Posts: 1021 | Location: Prineville, OR 97754 | Registered: 14 July 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
99.9% of guys that opt for custom bottom metal do so because they do not like the way the factory bottom metal looks...not because the factory bottom metal doesn’t work properly.

There’s nothing wrong with that, but that doesn’t automatically mean that a custom trigger guard/mag is going to work any better than the “ugly†one being replaced.

If a guy likes Blackburn, Sunny Hill, or Williams bottom metal, more power to him...but to say that any of them work “better†than the factory bottom metal is just plain silly.
 
Posts: 4574 | Location: Valencia, California | Registered: 16 March 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of triggerguard1
posted Hide Post
quote:

If a guy likes Blackburn, Sunny Hill, or Williams bottom metal, more power to him...but to say that any of them work “better†than the factory bottom metal is just plain silly.


Well call me silly, but when you see the factory Winchesters on the shelf with .050" gap between the floorplate and the trigger guard at the point where they meet....that's a failure waiting to happen.
Also, when the rifles at the Shot Show can't even be completely closed and one soft tap with the palm of your hand send the floorplate flying open, that's a problem.

If you ever care to refinish your rifle in the future and would like to see the barreled action match the bottom metal.....you won't be doing that with aluminum.

I've yet to hear a problem with any of our assemblies, Blackburns, or Sunny Hills coming open during recoil and they all blue quite nicely.

Drop a factory aluminum guard installed on your rifle on a rock or hard surface some time by accident. You'll see why soon enough that steel or stainless is the way to go. Instead of broken pieces, you'll still have a rifle to hunt with, providing your scope survives of course.


Williams Machine Works

 
Posts: 1021 | Location: Prineville, OR 97754 | Registered: 14 July 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Charles_Helm
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Displaced Texan:
Would some one provide contact Info. for
Blackburn bottom metal.

Thank You


Blackburn Machine/CNC Specialty Products, Inc.
 
Posts: 8773 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by triggerguard1:
quote:

If a guy likes Blackburn, Sunny Hill, or Williams bottom metal, more power to him...but to say that any of them work “better†than the factory bottom metal is just plain silly.


Well call me silly, but when you see the factory Winchesters on the shelf with .050" gap between the floorplate and the trigger guard at the point where they meet....that's a failure waiting to happen.
Also, when the rifles at the Shot Show can't even be completely closed and one soft tap with the palm of your hand send the floorplate flying open, that's a problem.

If you ever care to refinish your rifle in the future and would like to see the barreled action match the bottom metal.....you won't be doing that with aluminum.

I've yet to hear a problem with any of our assemblies, Blackburns, or Sunny Hills coming open during recoil and they all blue quite nicely.

Drop a factory aluminum guard installed on your rifle on a rock or hard surface some time by accident. You'll see why soon enough that steel or stainless is the way to go. Instead of broken pieces, you'll still have a rifle to hunt with, providing your scope survives of course.


What, in your opinion, is an acceptable gap between the floor plate and the guard proper? Be careful with your answer, I’m sitting here with two of your Remington 700 units (brand new, never installed) and a feeler guage right now! Smiler I‘ve also got 1903 Springfield and a 1903 Turk Mauser units sitting here (never been modified) that have absolutely no gap and if you can bang either of them open with the palm of your hand I’ll send you the rifles they go on for free.

Replacing an aluminum unit with a steel one is not an aesthetic decision, so that doesn’t fit my stated scenario.

IMO, the factory bottom metal on Mausers “work†just as well as any bottom metal offered by the “custom†shops.
 
Posts: 4574 | Location: Valencia, California | Registered: 16 March 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of tiggertate
posted Hide Post
He wasn't referencing Mausers.


"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson.
 
Posts: 11143 | Location: Texas, USA | Registered: 22 September 2003Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by tiggertate:
He wasn't referencing Mausers.


???????? That’s what this thread was about...wasn’t it?

Bottom metal is bottom metal and I still say that the vast majority of reasons that they are replaced is for personal aesthetic reasons, or to get a hinged floor plate that doesn’t exist on the factory model.

The custom ones, beautiful as they may be, function no better than the factory ones...and most of them need to be tinkered with, altered, and/or fitted for each particular rifle in order to fit properly and function reliably.

Matt mentioned “gaps†as a negative on factory model floorplates so I asked what he considered acceptable, considering the fact that his guards also have a gap...at least the two the I own do. It ain’t .050â€...but there is a noticeable gap there that my DD Ross models do not have, nor did the factory Remington aluminum ones.

I regularly replace the Remington aluminum guards with steel ones...but not because the aluminum ones don’t function or fit.
 
Posts: 4574 | Location: Valencia, California | Registered: 16 March 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of tiggertate
posted Hide Post
He was talking about the current crop of factory Remchesters, et al regardless of what the topic began about. When is the last time you saw aluminum bottom metal on a commercial (much less military) Mauser outside of some older J.C Higgins and lightweight Husqvarnas (aka Smith and Wesson)?


"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson.
 
Posts: 11143 | Location: Texas, USA | Registered: 22 September 2003Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by tiggertate:
He was talking about the current crop of factory Remchesters, et al regardless of what the topic began about. When is the last time you saw aluminum bottom metal on a commercial (much less military) Mauser outside of some older J.C Higgins and lightweight Husqvarnas (aka Smith and Wesson)?


I don’t quite understand what it is that I said that you are finding such a problem with. I never brought up aluminum guards, never mentioned aluminum in regards to Mausers...nor have I said one bad word about Matt’s trigger guards. I own two of them.

We were discussing the supposed “advantages†of aftermarket custom bottom metal as opposed to the bottom metal that came on the rifle...irregardless of the brand. I believe that the major differences are in looks, not in function. If you don’t share that opinion I could care less since I was in no way trying to change the way you feel on the subject.
 
Posts: 4574 | Location: Valencia, California | Registered: 16 March 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of tiggertate
posted Hide Post
I don't have a problem at all Rick, I just guess we read different things in Matt's post. When he started talking about aluminum bottom metal I guess I new he was off of Mausers and onto American factory rifles.


"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson.
 
Posts: 11143 | Location: Texas, USA | Registered: 22 September 2003Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by tiggertate:
I don't have a problem at all Rick, I just guess we read different things in Matt's post. When he started talking about aluminum bottom metal I guess I new he was off of Mausers and onto American factory rifles.


Okay then, I‘ll restate my offer to include factory aluminum Remington bottom metal. I have several out in the shop that have no gaps in the floor plate fitting and if Matt can “bounce†them open with the palm of his hand I’ll send you both a free rifle...how’s that? beer
 
Posts: 4574 | Location: Valencia, California | Registered: 16 March 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of tiggertate
posted Hide Post
I'm not taking a stand either way though I have had Remingtons that rattled because they flopped a few thous between the catch and the guard if you pushed on it. Also had some that were a bitch to close. Can't say one ever popped open on me but I never dropped a rifle like that, either.

Only owned one of the newer Mod 70s (an early 70s push feed; can't remember if it even had bottom metal its been so long ago) and have no opinion at all about them.

I only wanted to clarify that he wasn't suggesting that Mausers popped open with a palm slap.


"Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson.
 
Posts: 11143 | Location: Texas, USA | Registered: 22 September 2003Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by triggerguard1:
quote:
Originally posted by 22WRF:
Triggerguard

I am just curious if your Action is going to use drop forgings as well.

Looking forward to your continued success with all of these projects.


Yes they will.

We didn't want to offer our actions with our standard bottom metal, knowing that most customers who are wanting a true custom action on a finely finished rifle are going to replace that bottom metal with a Blackburn or Sunny Hill assembly. We wanted it right the first time; from bottom metal, top-of-line M70 trigger, double gas flanged bolt shroud, and the rest of the bells and whistles.


Triggerguard

If you get a minute, when you are designing your Model 70 Triggers, see how much extra work it takes to make the thing adjustable for creep. I was saying on another thread that a little screw for the sear nose to sit on would be a good idea on those triggers because then instead of having to go in there with a stone one could just go in there and adjust the screw a wee bit. Shouldn't be to tough for a good machinist such as yourself (although the amount of time to do it might make the part cost more than people would want to pay for it)
 
Posts: 7090 | Registered: 11 January 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of triggerguard1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rick 0311:
quote:
Originally posted by triggerguard1:
quote:

If a guy likes Blackburn, Sunny Hill, or Williams bottom metal, more power to him...but to say that any of them work “better†than the factory bottom metal is just plain silly.



Well call me silly, but when you see the factory Winchesters on the shelf with .050" gap between the floorplate and the trigger guard at the point where they meet....that's a failure waiting to happen.
Also, when the rifles at the Shot Show can't even be completely closed and one soft tap with the palm of your hand send the floorplate flying open, that's a problem.

If you ever care to refinish your rifle in the future and would like to see the barreled action match the bottom metal.....you won't be doing that with aluminum.

I've yet to hear a problem with any of our assemblies, Blackburns, or Sunny Hills coming open during recoil and they all blue quite nicely.

Drop a factory aluminum guard installed on your rifle on a rock or hard surface some time by accident. You'll see why soon enough that steel or stainless is the way to go. Instead of broken pieces, you'll still have a rifle to hunt with, providing your scope survives of course.


What, in your opinion, is an acceptable gap between the floor plate and the guard proper? Be careful with your answer, I’m sitting here with two of your Remington 700 units (brand new, never installed) and a feeler guage right now! Smiler I‘ve also got 1903 Springfield and a 1903 Turk Mauser units sitting here (never been modified) that have absolutely no gap and if you can bang either of them open with the palm of your hand I’ll send you the rifles they go on for free.

Replacing an aluminum unit with a steel one is not an aesthetic decision, so that doesn’t fit my stated scenario.

IMO, the factory bottom metal on Mausers “work†just as well as any bottom metal offered by the “custom†shops.



When I mentioned gap, I was referring to the Winchester's specifically and because of the latch system that is used, it can cause problems. I've yet to see a Remington or Mauser open up with a jolt by the hand or recoil of the rifle, but Winchesters can most definitely have that happen.

On our assemblies we like some clearance on that type of assembly that I would like to see less than .020", but more than.005". Any closer than that can sometimes cause problems with debri or dirt sticking up the situation, but that is only true for a Model70-style latch system, not the Oberndorf-type....Those should be held closer.


Williams Machine Works

 
Posts: 1021 | Location: Prineville, OR 97754 | Registered: 14 July 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of triggerguard1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Triggerguard

If you get a minute, when you are designing your Model 70 Triggers, see how much extra work it takes to make the thing adjustable for creep. I was saying on another thread that a little screw for the sear nose to sit on would be a good idea on those triggers because then instead of having to go in there with a stone one could just go in there and adjust the screw a wee bit. Shouldn't be to tough for a good machinist such as yourself (although the amount of time to do it might make the part cost more than people would want to pay for it)


We have prototypes in house that will not require any stoning or polishing whatsoever. They have been wire EDM'd to a 4 micron finish on the engagement areas and we have used these triggers on 2 post-64's and one pre-64 achieving safe trigger pulls down to 1 lbs. with no creep.
We are recommending these be not set lower than 2lb, but for as many years as my father and I have been looking over and reworking triggers on post and pre-64 model 70's, we've yet to find a trigger that could accomplish these trigger pull weights safely, even with careful hand stoning and polishing.
We are looking very hard at having these available for the Model 70 Winchester fans who don't want to resort to using a Timney or Jewell trigger, but still want the performance.


Williams Machine Works

 
Posts: 1021 | Location: Prineville, OR 97754 | Registered: 14 July 2002Reply With Quote
One of Us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by triggerguard1:
quote:
Triggerguard

If you get a minute, when you are designing your Model 70 Triggers, see how much extra work it takes to make the thing adjustable for creep. I was saying on another thread that a little screw for the sear nose to sit on would be a good idea on those triggers because then instead of having to go in there with a stone one could just go in there and adjust the screw a wee bit. Shouldn't be to tough for a good machinist such as yourself (although the amount of time to do it might make the part cost more than people would want to pay for it)


We have prototypes in house that will not require any stoning or polishing whatsoever. They have been wire EDM'd to a 4 micron finish on the engagement areas and we have used these triggers on 2 post-64's and one pre-64 achieving safe trigger pulls down to 1 lbs. with no creep.
We are recommending these be not set lower than 2lb, but for as many years as my father and I have been looking over and reworking triggers on post and pre-64 model 70's, we've yet to find a trigger that could accomplish these trigger pull weights safely, even with careful hand stoning and polishing.
We are looking very hard at having these available for the Model 70 Winchester fans who don't want to resort to using a Timney or Jewell trigger, but still want the performance.


Well, I sure would like to get my hands on one of those prototypes.
 
Posts: 7090 | Registered: 11 January 2005Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2  
 

Accuratereloading.com    The Accurate Reloading Forums    THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS  Hop To Forum Categories  Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading  Hop To Forums  Gunsmithing    Question for the Mauser experts on Blackburn guards...

Copyright December 1997-2023 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia