I am seriously considering going full time in stockmaking. I have not rushed this decision by any means. To those of you who are full time currently Im looking for advice and things to avoid when in business for yourself. Any comments greatly appreciated.

Hey, Bill...if anyone I know deserves to make it you do! I wish you all of the best in this venture and I will gladly steer guys your way whenever I can.

Bill
I thought you were making the big move to work in the world of bone charcoal. Did you decide not to move 3000 miles from home?
gunmaker

post some of your work.....do a little cruising and schmoozing here. There's a lot of folks that want to have stock work done.

Bill, good luck on the new venture. I was in the trucking business for 28 years and loved the freedom, (2-3 month's of hunting each year), I semi-retired and now work only on the gas pipeline, when I want tooo!!!!!

It will allow you much more freedom but on the other end, your income will be totally up to you. I would suggest having a years income put away as it will take about that long to get a good client base built up. You are much ahead of the game, with many here knowing of you great work and word of mouth does help greatly.

Good luck to you

Gunmaker,

That opportunity did not work out.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Soverns:
...Im looking for advice and things to avoid when in business for yourself. Any comments greatly appreciated.

Hey Bill, Number 1 is the Golden Rule of Business:

Treat your Customers the way you would want to be treated.

Charge a fair price for your work.

Make yourself available to answer questions during specific hours, say 1PM-3PM or maybe 5PM-9PM, you choose. You can't get a job done "properly" answering a phone 12hrs a day.

If you get a feeling you are dealing with a Fool, don't get into a Customer relationship with him for any reason.
---

I'd guess you are talking about Termite Food stock making, so buy Chlordane in the 55gal drum size.

Oh, and in case you hadn’t figured this one out yet...make sure your wife has a really good paying, steady job!

Bill,
Best of luck, and I hope you succeed past your wildest hopes
jeffe

Bill

How are things coming with the charity rifle?

Make the charity rifle a real eye-popper and use it to get the word out about your business. Do a raffle, advertising on several of the popular hunting and shooting websites.

Hey Bill,

Need a stock inletted for a Husqvarna/S&W model A (Husqvarna 1900), nice piece of Walnut with some fiddleback, straight grained fore-end, that I can do the final sanding and finish. Minimum drop at heel, european side-panels and pancake cheekpiece. Send me a pm with pics of the wood....oh yeah...price for the work.

Ol' John

Bill , Do you have a duplicating machine? Im finishing a pattern and have 2 blanks to turn

Rick

SDH has made several very good points.

Gunmaking is a wonderful avocation but, as a career, the economics suck. Honestly, you'd be better off painting houses for a living.

In a perverse way, the more talent a gunmaker exhibits, the more likely he is to fail in his chosen career. There's only room in the business for a handful of high-end builders at any one time and even these guys aren't getting rich. A maker stands a better chance of success if he were to slap together M700's and throw them in plastic stocks - at least he would have economies of scale working for him.

I have a friend who collects modern handcrafted wood furniture. He spends tens of thousands of dollars on individual pieces and buys from builders who have multi-year waiting lists. My friend had a wine and cheese party for about a hundred people at his house and had a furniture builder from CT there. The wives were oohing and ahhing over the guy and his furniture and how manly a craftsman he was. Any good stockmaker could have built one of this guy's chairs in a one friggin' afternoon! He probably left town with another year's worth of orders on his books.

I need to have these people over to my house for a little gunshow and winetasting and have Fisher, Goudy and Wiebe there for the ladies to swoon over. The problem is that no woman has ever bragged to another women that her husband just spent $15,000 on a rifle; but if he spends 15 large on a chair, she'll light up the switchboards.

Bill, my advice is to find something else to do for a living. You can build stocks for fun and play money, but you need a source of income. Some great gunmakers have figured out that they make their real money by selling wood, duplicating stocks, designing and building gunparts, writing and photography, teaching classes, etc. It's almost impossible to make enough money building stocks alone.

Is that enough cold water for you? Selfishly, I hope I don't deter you because the trade will need 8-10 new top-notch stockbuilders over the next ten years and I only know of 3-4 younger guys that will probably make a go of it. For the sake of your family though, don't go into stockmaking because you have to, go into it because you can afford to.

I wish you all the luck in the world.

Bill,
If you have stock to make, make it.
If you have 6 jobs on deck waiting for your attention, then you are full time and buy the time you get those done there will be more.
Don't make a $5000.00 dollar stock for $2000.00 the only throat you cut will be your own. Charge what it's worth, those who can't afford it won't and those who can will. Don't buy a job. If you build a great rifle be proud of it and charge for it. A $2000.00 dollar rifle in a one man shop shop should neads to be finished and out the door in 50 to 60 hours. That's 40 to 33 dollars per hour and the customer better be supplying all the materails for the job at that or it's totally upside down and won't go.

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
... As I remember, ol' HotCore up there was one of those flaming professionals for charging too much money, Gonna rely on him to pay your mortgage?...

Hey SDH, The "Termites" have gotten between your ears. I'm in full support of a guy charging a proper rate for his work.

Perhaps what is confusing you is I prefer the warmth and non-warping characteristics of good old home-grown Synthetic for my hunting. So, you are correct that folks making a profit chiseling and sawing on Termite Food won't be making a profit from me.

That doesn't mean I can't appreciate how pretty they are. And I wish "most" of you Termite Food crafters the best of luck.

And remember, a "proper rate" is every last dime the market will bear. If you don't value your work, neither will anyone else.

Thanks to everyone for the input. Let me first of all dispell any thoughts that this decision has any romantic "follow your dream" stuff attached to it. I realize I could make more money painting houses. But, I dont know how. My current occupation career outlook is abysmal. At this point I can either go work at 7-11 or go full time into stockmaking. Im not throwing away a career for this.

Bill, I am from the ‘63 class at TSJC as you probably have never heard of me until now. I never joined the guild because I had more work than I could do. I could have been in the stockmaking and engraving guild if I had tried to join. First I worked for a company that didn’t support an employee going to these meetings. I suppose that it was because of fear that the employee would leave. I went back and taught stockmaking at TSJC from ’93-’94 after selling most of my shop equipment.

Here is a fine craftsman about to jump off the deep end. Will he sink or swim? Several factors need to be answered first. It is very hard to make a good living working for yourself in a one man operation, I know I have been there. First to consider: Will the family support your efforts? Will you be willing to work 60 hrs a week? Do you have a shop at home? Overhead expenses can take up to 1/3 of the income. Don’t forget that you will be paying self employment tax at about 16 % and if you don’t pay the SS tax there will not be much of a check when you retire. Don’t forget the INVENTORY TAX. It all adds up. I worked for a larger shops most of my years because they paid more than I could make having my own shop. This can take most of the fun out of making fine custom stocks. You can only gross about $25 to $30 a year in the amount of time it takes to make fine stocks. Take the taxes out and count what is left for you. IT JUST DON’T MAKE MUCH SENSE IN TODAYS MARKET TO JUMP INTO THIS FIELD FULL TIME. As SDH and others mentioned it is a hard go!!!! I would look for a higher paying job and do this work as a side line if I had to do it all over again.

I worked full time as a general gunsmith and made stocks in the off season and retired at 62. I see several gunsmiths still working into their 70’s to make more money and get their EGO FIX. When I quit working and started the RV life style, people could not understand why. If you work on guns every day for 40 years you will get burned out because of the hard work and little pay. Plan for the future. I was able to retire not because of my hard work, but from planning. It helps to know that there is a good inheritance waiting for you.

I noticed on your web site that you don’t do plastic stocks. I had the same problem, but one day a good customer came into my shop to have some work done on a Colt pistol. He brought in a Mod. 70 from a Dr. to have a custom rifle built. He had all the info and he requested a fiber glass stock. I had refused to do this work in the past, but I agreed to do this job because of the past work for this man. The Dr. came down on his next day off and looked at the project. He went to his SUV and brought in 3 more Mod.70 actions. He picked out 3 English blanks and order these made up into classic style. As a result I got about $10,000 more work out of the man all because I bent my rules. I would do 100% of the metal work, stockmaking, bluing, and finish on my custom jobs. Some of the better paying work can be kept in your shop. If I didn’t do the complete stock in my shop ,, I would not take a job in. I didn’t want to do all hard work and let someone else do the finishing. To avoid most tire kickers I worked by APPOINTMENT ONLY. Time is important when you have more work than you can do.

BILL I KNOW THAT YOU CAN GET ALL THE WORK YOU CAN POSSIBLY HANDLE, BUT CAN YOU MAKE A GOOD LIVING AND RETIRE AT A REASONABLE AGE?????

Hey Bill,

Somebody in the thread above mentioned about treating your customers as you would like to be treated.......but does this mean I have to be nice to you ......its far more fun to, as we say in this part of Texas aggervate you .

You'll do fine.

Tough decision, Bill! I tend to agree with Les. Whatever you decide, I wish you all the best!

As someone who has owned my own business for 15 years, let me expand on what some here have said. First, can you run a BUSINESS? Most artists and craftsmen who can not run a business do not make it because of their business skills, not their particular skills.

Taxes will take a minimum of 40% of what you make including all of those things mentioned by LesBrooks. Accounting and inventory will take up a larger amount of time than you think. Do you have the processes in place for the receiving records with the customer's order, materials and the accounting for the deposits and the associated recordkeeping.

How do you plan to correspond and update your clients? Communication takes time away from billing and the better your communication is, the less time you have to spend doing it because your clients will not feel the need to call and interrupt you.

Do you have a lawyer, separate bank account and company organization. Even if you work alone, you need to provide protection for your assets that are not job related. In other words, you do not need to incorporate, but you do need the protection of some sort of Limited Liability Company just in case some idiot sues you and goes after your personal items like house, cars, and bank accounts. If you think it can't happen, how about the DGR you put a stock on for a client that had a defect in the grip area that wasn't noticed and it broke at the wrong time...while the Buffalo was charging after the recoil busted the grip. Will the grieving wife sue???? Which brings me to insurance. Will you have it to cover the losses should anything happen to the business, like fire. My homeowner's insurance would not cover business items for the year I worked from my house. If you run the business from your home, are there any city/county zoning issues or permits that take time and $$$.

You said in your original post that you are thinking about stockmaking. Does that include entire rifle making, or just stocks? If it is stocks, can you contract to a larger company to take some of the admin from you?

Another post above mentioned market price. It was spot on! Your price is what the market will bear, period. That is a call you will have to make. NEVER sell yourself short. Advertise a price, but plan contingencies for things like money for food. My business started at $35 per hour and now the market can bear $100 per hour with more work than I can handle. I don't take it all because there are some people you just don't want to work for and some projects you just don't want to tackle.

Lastly, do you LOVE stockmaking? I didn't ask about liking it, do you LOVE it. It goes a long way to be able to go to work and love what you do. It keeps you at it longer and is more rewarding both personally and monitarily. If you don't, work at 7-11 in the evenings and do the best job you can with the stocks during the day, or vise versa.

Please don't take any of the comments to make you think I don't think you should go for it. I think your work is outstanding. This is just meant to be business reality 101.

Lots of good support and also good advice on the realities of this business and the marketplace.

All one needs to do to see the long range trends in this business is to look at Leupold and Remington. Two very old and very respected companies that have had to go the cheapo route to stay in business.

Read the posts on this forum any time the topic of the cost of something comes up. There are always a few people willing to pay for quality, but the vast majority of guys out there have champagne appetites and beer pocket-books. And this is on a forum that one would assume attracts people with more than just a casual interest in firearms.

At the present time the “big-ticket†items are AR’s and anything “tactical.†Look at Brownell’s catalog...then look at one of their catalogs from 20 years ago. More to the current topic...look at the most sucessful stock making companies out there. Synthetics, and laminates dominate the marketplace.

If anyone wants to even come close to making any steady money stocking rifles they had better be willing to work with both wood and synthetics, have their own patterns and duplicating machine, and be willing and able to do full pillar bedding jobs.

I have a question for all of those who are giving advice based on their experiences.

I don't know a damn thing about the custom gun business, but I do know a little bit about running a business that has a "want" product versus a "need" product. In otherwords, a business selling what I would call luxury goods and services.

And of course, one of the things that I made absolutely sure that I did was to spend considerable time and money marketing to those who were willing to pay the price for my goods and services.

After all, you don't see many mercedes or cadiallac dealerships down on the "other side of the tracks" so to speak.

So, I wonder why it is that many custom builders tend to hang out in small towns and in the country. Yea, I agree, that is where I would like to live as well, and have lived.

But in order to survive in a one man shop, regarldess of whether its building custom rifles, or custom boots, or custom knives, or custom photography, or whatever, you need to be in a place where there are plenty (and I do mean plenty) of people who will see your work and where there are plenty of people that can afford your work. that is unless you have some other national marketing effort, such as say David Miller did with Safari Club, or Don Allen did through his work with NOrthwest Airlines, or whatever.

It may be a distasteful lifestyle to a custom gunbuilder, but If I were going into that profession I would want to be living in a very affluent suburb, and I would want to be a member of the local country club, and a member of the JCs, etc. etc., the reason being that those are the types of places where you find people to pay you $5,000 for a stock that you could not sell for $1,000 out in the country (or here on AR to all of us cheapskates ).

In summation, I have a feeling that besides impeccable craft, the most telling evidence of whether one would succeed in such a "custom" business is the marketing program that one carries out to those customers that can and will afford your product.

Well, its a good point. Most of the big names that became solvent long term businesses were situated in large population centers. And a lot of the current and deceased elder masters worked for those big name houses at some point in their careers. I guess they got a taste of it and decided it wasn't for them.

There is some validity in what 22WRF posted...but in todays internet world businesses have a bit more freedom to be located in areas other than where their customer “base†might reside.

I’m not sure many fledging gunsmiths could afford to live in Manhatten, the Hamptons, Beverly Hills, or Malibu...even if they wanted to!

That doesn’t, however, mean that you can’t advertise in areas and publications that cater to the type of customer you are depending upon for your product or services...and you can certainly make a showing at events that cater to those potential customers, but to do that you need a source of income to start with.

People go into “business†to make money...and people pursue “dreams†for pleasure...and the number of people who can sucessfully combine the two are few and far between!

Hey, I‘ve worked as a stunt man for allot of years making a great living playing Cowboys and Indians and Cops and Robbers, and getting paid to do things other people would get arrested for! I saw allot of young guys and gals over the years try to pursue that dream... Some made it, the vast majority didn’t.

My advice to young people trying to get into the stunt business was always the same: If this is what you truly want to do then go for it...but in the mean time get yourself a real job to pay your bills!

Rick

I don't see how anyone can survive in California. I have an aunt who recently sold a house in La Canada that is half the size of my house. She sold it for almost $600,000 and I would be lucky to get $200,000 for mine.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Rick

I don't see how anyone can survive in California. I have an aunt who recently sold a house in La Canada that is half the size of my house. She sold it for almost $600,000 and I would be lucky to get $200,000 for mine.

It helps if you’ve been here long enough to have bought your house back when they were affordable.

I bought my place for $140,000.00 and its worth $500,000.00 now. Crazy!

To your original theory, I live here because to work and make a living as a stunt man in the motion picture and TV business (at least when I started) you had to live in the LA area because that’s where the work was, or at least that’s where the hiring took place when they crewed up to go on location.

Most of spend our life doing things we don't really like to do. The scary thing is that when I started working as an accountant 38 years ago I really liked it & did until I had been out of the trenches a few years. It looks like being a gunsmith would be fun from the out side but I would not trade jobs with my gunsmith & keep my earnings which are 5-10 times his. Most of his customers are idiots.

If you do decide to go foward, you should set your business as an LLC. You can do this over the internet for less than $200. Set yourself up a job cost system and keep it up to date. You need to know where you are making & loosing money. Keep up with your time & try to get 60% of your hours billable. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:


I don't know a damn thing about the custom gun business, but I do know a little bit about running a business that has a "want" product versus a "need" product. In otherwords, a business selling what I would call luxury goods and services.

And of course, one of the things that I made absolutely sure that I did was to spend considerable time and money marketing to those who were willing to pay the price for my goods and services.

After all, you don't see many mercedes or cadiallac dealerships down on the "other side of the tracks" so to speak.

So, I wonder why it is that many custom builders tend to hang out in small towns and in the country. Yea, I agree, that is where I would like to live as well, and have lived.


It may be a distasteful lifestyle to a custom gunbuilder, but If I were going into that profession I would want to be living in a very affluent suburb, and I would want to be a member of the local country club, and a member of the JCs, etc. etc., the reason being that those are the types of places where you find people to pay you $5,000 for a stock that you could not sell for $1,000 out in the country (or here on AR to all of us cheapskates ).

I have to second this opinion. I service and repair spas, hot tubs and steamrooms, my service area is the northeastern suburbs of NYC, including SW CT. My customers, for the most part, are willing to pay top dollar for good service, which I try to give them all the time.

The smith that works on my doubleguns is highly respected, works from his home in SW CT. He has about a 2 year wait for stockmaking.

I was talking to a custom riflesmith at a show in Stamford CT recently. His shop is acually in NYC and he said business is very good.

"Why do you rob banks?"

"Cause that's where the money is."

I'll grant you that the cost of living is higher here but there is plenty of interest, plenty of shooters, dealers and shops looking to have high end work done.

You'd just have to live about an hour away to find affordable housing but the work will come to you.

The other thing I have learned is return phone calls.

That, I believe, is the single most important thing a business owner can do. Even if it's just a call back to politely say"I'm sorry, but I'm booked solid now and cannot take on new work" or "I don't do that kind of work but here's a number of someone that might". It leaves a good impression and they may return when you need work. I've been told over and over again, stories of my competitors that don't return calls, it pisses people off.

I know that talking on the phone can be anathema to a gunsmith business but as was suggested above, set a time to communicate to your customers and figure that time into the billing of your work.

Bill, when I started I had things like buying a house and the kid out of the house. It was just the wife and I and she is a high powered executive for a major firm. So my first asker is marry well. Next to that, I started a part time business and by the time I was ready to go full time, I already had a customer base.

Billable hours is the problem. As I write this, I'm giving away a billable hour. It takes about 10 to 20 hours a week just to promote yourself with new customers. Then there's the usual business work like ordering parts or reamers, basic supplies. I'm lucky, I work from home, so that cuts a lot of overhead.

A lot of people in the industry have a second products. I wrote a book on metalsmithing thats been selling very well. Glen Chapman, a friend of mind has the swing safety that you might see in the Brownell's catalog. Find something that you have made by a ventor that you just need to package and send out. Not a lot of time, but a nice profit margin. This helps generate cash flow. I also mill octagon barrels for other gunsmiths. I try to get them out within 3 weeks so I'm not bothering someone elses schedule. This is a cash flow item.

I've found that dealing with customers is your ace in the hole. Talk to them and don't bullsh*t them. Talk to them and answer their questions and make the project a joint project. Most customer look at shooting as a hobby, their buying a new toy. Make them part of the project, sometimes sh*t happens and the sooner the customer knows about it, the easier he will be on you.

If you want to be successful, being a craftman is not all you have to master. Being a good businessman is just as important.

Being the "local gunsmith" would be beneficial for the guy starting out, but the most successful stockmakers have a national clientele. Eventually, they can live just about anywhere the want - if they can afford it.

Advances in laser digitalization and 6-axis milling machines and cutting tools are occuring at a rapid pace. It won't be long before I can send in one of my nicest stocks and get an exact duplicate (unfinished) for not much dough. That's going to be good for customers but tough for stockbuilders. There will still be some well-heeled customers who will pay a premium for a stock cut from the blank by hand; but how many clients and what amount of premium will they pay?

Just an un-educated question...but how does one tell the difference between a stock made entirely by hand from a blank and one that was turned and inletted to almost finished form on a duplicator?

Only by the reputation of the builder. Just one of those "value-added" leaps of faith $10,000 buys.

ForrestB is right though, the day is near when not only can you laser digitize the exterior but also the actual barreled action for near perfect machine inletting.

ForrestB makes a couple of good points--as usual--and I'll extrapolate.

As to location, check out the ACGG roster. These guys are everywhere, but mainly in what I take to be rural, firearms friendly towns in the west.

Obviously, Bill needs a machine. I'm not up on the latest technology, but it seems like a Hoenig, or maybe it's successor, at the least. The more advanced the better.

Now... if, as Forrest suggests, the new duplicators are so accurate as to endanger stockmakers--and I believe Forrest is correct--what's really needed is a guy skillful and creative enough to cut original patterns.

My experience is that a good pattern--back to djpaintles' taste issue--is hard to find.

I think a good pattern could be treated the same way other "intellectual properties" are.

I don't know Gary Goudy's deal with GAGS, but, had I created a pattern, I'd be loathe to sell it. Better just to license it out.

The same way a boatbuilder will sell plans, with the license to build one boat.

For example... I've seen a few stocks here on AR that I'd have been happy to send to a cutter with a good machine, and an adequate sum to the creator of the stock.

Anyway, I'm hoping that as a result of this post Bill already has a couple of new commissions.

flaco

Gentlemen,

I am really overwhelemed at the outstanding advice given here. I have read each post several times and taken notes on all suggestions and opinions. I havent posted many responses because Im still pondering and digesting everything that has been said here. To answer a few of the questions so far....

Yes, my family is behind me.
No, my wife does not make a huge amount of money.
Yes, I love building gunstocks.
Am I a business man? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Hey, Bill...whatever your ultimate decision may be (and ultimately it will be YOUR decision) I hope you see from all these posts that you have allot of friends that care about you and will not hesitate to direct work your way whenever we can.

Some more questions to answer and then I will shut up. Think of medical insurance and see where it fits into the plan. I had very good medical insurance, life insurance, accident, cancer, and heart attack policys paid for by the company. This would cost a lot of money in addition to a good salary which I got. Also paid vacations, time off when needed. If you can find a company looking for a good stockmaker, I would go that route. I also gave up motorcycle riding because I was afraid of a wreck and not be able to use my hands. Just a few thoughts to consider.

Bill
I hope you can swing it and do well. As long as you have the time/money to hang out at the shows in Reno with Sandy, Rick etc..... I had a good time fat chewing/venting hope it can continue. I'll try not to vent so much next time.

I too would like to take the big plunge and work for myself. My wife and I moved here from Sturgis to get paid well, have GOOD health insurance, have a few babies, and buy some machines and then move back to the wild West. Now I've got two boys, 2 & 5. Two C $ection$, and 36 X 56 garage I can't even walk through cause it's full of so many toys & tools &cars I don't drive. Just brought home a 6X18 Mitsui surface grinder today and can't get it off the trailer....anybody want an old clunker 6 x 12 DoAll so I can free up some space????? Now I'm throughly tired of working for someone else in a shop where english is a minority language.

I think MORE gunmakers & gunsmiths should take the plunge and do it for a living. Then maybe the prices wouldn't be driven down by those that do it just for fun and charge DIRT for high quality work. How many reading this have a buddy that can order them rifles for a deal or do a trigger job for free??? I saw Roger Heglands work at the guild and asked his prices. He laughed when I asked if he did this for a living and said he just enjoied doing it. His work looked far better then the prices he was asking. Hard to compete with these kind of situations.

I'd like to "bust out" on my own and try and not compete with anyone. Just offer some of those cool aftermarket things you can't like my MiniX floormetal and a maybe some stock duplicating from my patterns with the understanding they won't be copied. Along with building complete custom rifles I could get used to it!!! Especially out West.

Pipe dreams or goals. That's the $50,000 question.

gunmaker

Bill, you would probably find it beneficial to spend some time on the phone with Les and others who have been down the road ahead of you. I'm sure you're getting advice from all over the place, but having met Les just once, I came away thinking he's a good man to get reasoned advice from.

Now for a mostly off-topic anecdote about 3D duplication (I heard about this from a orthopaedic surgeon): When a patient comes in with a bad spine and needs surgury, an MRI is taken of the spinal column. The MRI is turned into a 3D digital file and entered into a type of CNC milling machine that makes an exact life-sized replica of the bad vertebrae. The surgical team then uses the model of that section of the spine to calibrate their tools and practice ahead of time whatever surgical procedure is to take place.

This doctor said the model is extremely accurate in every dimension. Since the MRI and milling machine cost a few million together, they're not likely to be used to pattern a stock, but lasers are cheaper and the cost of the technology is falling fast. It seems like only a matter of time until the same process is used for stockmaking.