quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by butchlambert:

I am also willing to put a bit of my own time/sweat equity into prepping the barrel by doing some of that hand work myself.

I will just have to eat the $65 price of the blank as well as my time hand lapping the bore.

I'm sure I can recover most of the initial investment .

Yes you can and I know where and who. roger

From what I was told; Shaw at one time made the A&B barrels for MIDWAY. The A&B barrels I have are OK but not great. roger

Give me a lesson in barrel lapping. At what stage do you lap it? Before or after chambering? How do you pour your lap? What grit abrasive do you use?
When do you know when to quit?
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Originally posted by Tapper2:
If you want to use a cheap barrel get an Adams & Bennett. They cost less and are of the same quality. I'm not so sure they aren't better. Both foul quickly, but A&B seem to be more accurate on average. I have only used 4 or 5 of each, so it's a small sample. Many customers are happy, understanding they have to clean more often.......Tom

@ $65 + $15 shipping I doubt that an A&B would be cheaper.

The only reason I bought this barrel was the discounted price for a profile that is no longer being offered.

The regular price would have been $130.

I wanted a blank barrel so that I can have the crown, chamber & particularly the throat cut to my spec's.

I think some elbow grease W/a lead lap will help aleviate the copper fouling. Besides that, Wipe Out makes removing copper a whole lot easier than hand scrubbing.

I agree with you. I buy barrels on sale from time to time. I use them to try something I'm not sure about, experiment with twist and barrel length, for example. The biggest problem I have is when I hit a winner, I wish it had a better barrel......Tom

quote:

Give me a lesson in barrel lapping. At what stage do you lap it? Before or after chambering? How do you pour your lap? What grit abrasive do you use?
When do you know when to quit?

Can't help you butch. The one I tried was a 243 Shaw it would shoot about 1.25" for a 3 shot group but after about 25 rds it would start to spread. Clean the copper out and back to 1.25" I got some directions someplace (long since tossed) and after I got through I had a 2+" rifle that didn't foul quite as quick.

As I said in my first post. Some Shaws will shoot. I think I have owned 3 and loaded for about 3 more. It was about a 50/50 deal. All this was 20+years ago. Can't say anything about them today. Sundra always had good things to say about them since they gave him free barrels.

At $65 you won't get burned on the barrel. However like everyone has said that is the small cost of the project. I hope it works for you.

Here's the part I don't understand. A person buy's a cheap, mediocre at best, barrel and then wants it custom throated, chambered and crowned. Why? Sounds like a waste of limited funds. He asked for opinions, but it's his money so I wish him luck.

Paul,
I was asking the guy that puts suppositories up the wildcats ass. He seems to be knowledgeable about it.
Butch

Butch that is what I figured. Just noting the one time I tried it I F**KED my barrel up. Turned it into one of Westpac's "target" barrels. Hope he has better instructions and results than I had.

I have two Shaw barrels. One is a stainless HBar on my AR-15 that shoots MOA with pulled surplus bullets and surplus powder. The second is a .257AI that Shaw installed for me. Once I shot the lapping kit bullets from Tubb thru it I am getting three shots all touching groups when I do my part.

I also just build a .308 on a K98 action with an A&B barrel. Same thing shot the Tubb's lapping kit thru it and I have a rifle that cuts holes.

I would use another unless I was building a bench gun.

You know, I don't have a dog in the fight, as I could care less if someone uses a Shaw barrel, or not. But, I have to share something that amuses me.

With all the testimonials for Shaw, I'm amazed that Douglas, Shilen, Krieger, Lilja, Hart, Blackstar, Rock, Obermeir, and Smith have ever managed to sell a barrel.

However, I have never seen someone come in the shop complainining that their barrel from one of the above manufacturers won't shoot, and they'd like to upgrade to a Shaw.

dave

Good point Dave.
Butch

Having voiced my experiences with Shaw barrels, I also want to point out if I were a gunsmith whose reputation depends on the Quality of his work The Shaw barrels would not be on which I'd gamble. However if you like to dick around just for shits and giggles, Like I, than producing a wild cat or something a little different with a Shaw barrel gives me pleasure. roger

I have used four or five barrels from E.R. Shaw over the years and all were acceptable to me. One was exceptional and still is to this day. In my lifetime I have used 20+ barrels from Flaigs, Federal, Hart, Shilen, Douglas, Shaw, Adams Bennett, and three or four from other small barrel makers. I have used more Shilens than any other brand. I had one Shilen barrel that absolutely would not group. It was replaced by the smith who put it on with another which turned out to be fine. Most other brands gave more than acceptable service and a few were exceptional in the accuracy dept.

It has been my experience that more accuracy will be gained, or lost, by how well the barrel is installed rather than the type of barrel used. I have seen barrels, some rather expensive ones, taken off that would not group and when they were installed properly the accuracy turnaround was phenomenal.

I have had Dennis Olson install several barrels for me and he will take as many pains with a Shaw barrel as he will a Lilja or Pac-nor, which are among his favorites. I would be very surprised if the rifle didn't shoot well when he got through with it. He put an Adams-Bennett in 6.5X55 on a rifle for me and quite frankly the weak link in the accuracy department is usually the shooter rather than the barrel. In other words it is a very accurate rifle when the shooter does his part.

I really don't know anything about ERS Barrels, but the rational that you can't afford to purchase anything better, is flawed.

I am not a rich man. Therfore, when I purchase hunting and shooting equipment, I spare no expense and buy only top quality gear. I can't afford to play with anything that's of questionable quality. I just work way too hard for my money. Rich men can buy junk, but not me, it just costs too much.

Guess I am just lucky...

all the Shaw barrels I have purchased have been better shooters than the factory barrels that came on the rifle...

the worst one was a 223 barrel, that didn't seem to give groups to brag about at the range at all..but seemed just acceptable..

however I take it out and shoot at sage rats the size of a pop can or 20 oz soda bottle.. and the "poor quality" Shaw barrel will still nail moving targets that size out to 250-300 yds as well as my most accurate varmint rifles..

The Most accurate rifle I own, is a 6mm Rem with a barrel on it that was a PacNor factory reject that I got mega cheap..

I'm not going to knock what barrel a guy uses, whether it is cheap or spendy

the 223 Shaw barrel I speak of, is mounted on a Model 70 action... and it does whatever I ask of it in the varmint fields..but still it won't impress anyone at the rifle range...

and in the field is where I wanted it to perform..and it does..

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Give me a lesson in barrel lapping. At what stage do you lap it? Before or after chambering?

Since this particular barrel is not chambered I would lap before.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
How do you pour your lap?

The only experience I have is with already breeched muzzleloaders. That is a bit trickier than a breech loader I think.

When pouring a lap for a breeched muzzleloader, one takes a tight for bore bronze brush that has been cleaned to remove all oil. Trim the bristles about 1/2 the length. Wrap a cotton patch around the end. Insert the brush/rod into the muzzle on a metal rod, push the brush into the bore so that the end screwed into the rod is about 1/2" below the muzzle. Heat the muzzle W/a propane torch until it is hot to the touch. Pour the pure lead into the muzzle being careful to not overpour the muzzle since it would be difficult to extract the lap W/O having it come out of the bore completely. An overpour would make the lap dificult (but not impossible) to push into the bore.

A bore protector insures that the rifling @ the muzzle will not be damaged.

Of course on an unchambered breech loader, the lap would be worked from the breech making a bore protector less critical.

A stop on the shank of the rod would insure that the lap is not pushed out of the muzzle, a mark a few inches from the lap would warn when the lap is coming near the breech.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
What grit abrasive do you use?

On a really rough muzzleloader barrel I would start W/180 grit. On a factory brechloader barrel I would proably start W/240ish. What would you recommend?
I normally finished W/320 but again, what would you recommend?

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
When do you know when to quit?Butch

On the initial passes W/the coursest grit I would continue to lap until I felt even resistance for the length of the bore, pouring new laps if neccessary.

On the finer grits I would initially make about 20 strokes, then reapply grit & gauge whether I would re-pour & make more passes by feel.

Now you can either be helpful & make suggestions, or just keep being critical W/O posting anything constructive.

quote:

Originally posted by ssdave:
You know, I don't have a dog in the fight, as I could care less if someone uses a Shaw barrel, or not. But, I have to share something that amuses me.

With all the testimonials for Shaw, I'm amazed that Douglas, Shilen, Krieger, Lilja, Hart, Blackstar, Rock, Obermeir, and Smith have ever managed to sell a barrel.

However, I have never seen someone come in the shop complainining that their barrel from one of the above manufacturers won't shoot, and they'd like to upgrade to a Shaw.

dave

How does GM get people to pay thousands of $$$$ more for an Escalade when it is exactly the same mechancally as a Tahoe?

quote:

Originally posted by Tapper2:

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Originally posted by Tapper2:
If you want to use a cheap barrel get an Adams & Bennett. They cost less and are of the same quality. I'm not so sure they aren't better. Both foul quickly, but A&B seem to be more accurate on average. I have only used 4 or 5 of each, so it's a small sample. Many customers are happy, understanding they have to clean more often.......Tom

@ $65 + $15 shipping I doubt that an A&B would be cheaper.

The only reason I bought this barrel was the discounted price for a profile that is no longer being offered.

The regular price would have been $130.

I wanted a blank barrel so that I can have the crown, chamber & particularly the throat cut to my spec's.

I think some elbow grease W/a lead lap will help aleviate the copper fouling. Besides that, Wipe Out makes removing copper a whole lot easier than hand scrubbing.

I agree with you. I buy barrels on sale from time to time. I use them to try something I'm not sure about, experiment with twist and barrel length, for example. The biggest problem I have is when I hit a winner, I wish it had a better barrel......Tom

If you "hit a winner" why would you wish you had a better barrel?

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Give me a lesson in barrel lapping. At what stage do you lap it? Before or after chambering? How do you pour your lap? What grit abrasive do you use?
When do you know when to quit?
Butch

Butch,

If your question was somewhat retorical for this thread, the reply to it has made your point.

If you are really interested in a successful technique for barrel lapping, PM me and I'll give you some references to read from guys that do this well that will get you going in the right direction. Don't start in on a good barrel with the instructions posted above! You will most likely not get the intended result you were looking for.

Dave

Dave,
My post was aimed at the wildcat guy. The barrel blanks that I buy are lapped by professionals. I agree with the 240-320 grit media. I do not want a barrel that is lapped after chambering!! A barrel should only be lapped from the breech!
Is this the advice that you were seeking wildcat?
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Having voiced my experiences with Shaw barrels, I also want to point out if I were a gunsmith whose reputation depends on the Quality of his work The Shaw barrels would not be on which I'd gamble. However if you like to dick around just for shits and giggles, Like I, than producing a wild cat or something a little different with a Shaw barrel gives me pleasure. roger

quote:

If you "hit a winner" why would you wish you had a better barrel?

I can't speak for Tom but the majority of wildcatters are looking for velocity or efficiency. Not counting the benchrester that look to things like the PPC for accuracy.

I've designed and built a number of wildcats. In my early days to save a $ I bought a couple Shaw barrels. I used my wildcat reamer in one got the velocity I was looking for but it wouldn't group. So I ended up pulling it and replacing. So I ended up with results I wanted after I paid for a second barrel. So I actually paid an extra 60-75% for that McGowan barrel. The other one I used for a 243 that I reference before.

Looking at the posts looks about 50/50 which matches my experience. Looking at your first post you asked for opinions on if the Shaw barrel will fit your needs. But you take exception with opinions that are negative.

You will know the answer only after you are done.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

Looking at the posts looks about 50/50 which matches my experience. Looking at your first post you asked for opinions on if the Shaw barrel will fit your needs. But you take exception with opinions that are negative.

You will know the answer only after you are done.

Well put. roger

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I agree with the 240-320 grit media. I do not want a barrel that is lapped after chambering!! A barrel should only be lapped from the breech!
Is this the advice that you were seeking wildcat?
Butch

So my limited experience is on the right track then?

I dug around & found my lapping compound.

I have some Clover abrasive grease in a very course grit. I can't read the text on the tin any more, I think it has deteriorated from the solvents in the grease but I think it was 180. I won't be using that.

The other actual lapping compounds i have are 220, 320 & 600. Is the 600 really neccessary? It would be a good finish for a greased patch around a roundball, but a jacketed bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by ssdave:
If you are really interested in a successful technique for barrel lapping, PM me and I'll give you some references to read from guys that do this well that will get you going in the right direction. Don't start in on a good barrel with the instructions posted above! You will most likely not get the intended result you were looking for.

Dave

Is that post directed @ me?

If so I would very much like input from someone W/experience.

BTW: If you are refering to my post on how I would go about it W/my limited experience, it was not intended to be taken as instruction. It was in answer to Butch's question.

You better quit at 320 with jacketed bullets, that is if Bartlien, Kreiger, Lilja, and Shilen know what they are doing. Do you lap a choke in your barrels?
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Do you lap a choke in your barrels?
Butch

I've given it some thought. I understand the theory behind it.

Any input on technique?

I thought that after several passes, perhaps after pouring the second lead lap, setting the stop so that the lap would stop some distance from the muzzle. Maybe even working my way back towards the breech progressively W/a few susequent lap pours?

In 1978 I built myself a rifle chambered for the .264 Win Mag for long range hunting in Wyoming. I used a 26" ER Shaw barrel on a P-14 Enfield action. I shoot a Nosler 140 grain Partition at 3200 fps. That rifle is and always has been a tackdriver. It's probably killed 50 pronghorns and mulies, 5 of which were beyond 500 yards(accurately measured with rangefinders).
A few years later I built a second one for a friend who admired mine...same results.
I also built myself a .458 Win Mag, ER Shaw barrel on a Rem. Model 30 action, to use on Cape Buffalo. That rifle is like a .45 calibre varmint rifle and will put 3-500 grain Hornadys in an inch and a half at 100 yards, all day long.
Also, I have never seen any indication of excessive fouling with any of these three rifles.
Obviously my experiences are at odds with many others here but the truth is the truth.... is the truth....

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
If you "hit a winner" why would you wish you had a better barrel?

I always wonder if it could have been better.

I have a .416 Taylor with an A&B barrel that I built to see if I liked the round. I've got it shortened down to 22", with an Accurate Innovations stock. It will take four in the floor because of "Sow's Ear" bottom metal. I love the gun as it shoots sub-MOA. It even cleans easily. I just hate it when someone asks "whose barrel did I use?". Just an ego problem I guess........Tom

My Grandmother had a saying for people like this--"Bless His Little Heart"!

+1

As usual...a thread starts out answering a question then disintegrates into snide remarks, pecker waving, "my dog's better than your dog", "are you stupid or something", etc.

If my income and reputation depended on which barrel I sold I sure wouldn't take a chance on ANYTHING of questionable quality...AND...of course, if A&B or Shaw sold their barrels as hand lapped and stress relieved for high dollars and a few of them started showing up on the top of the benchrest winners lists, people would be just like Cousin Minny Pearl...EVERYONE would have the price tag hanging out there for all to see...Say it only cost 80 bucks and ipso facto it ain't worth "**it".

I put the best barrels I could find on my benchresters when I was competing way long time ago and had a go with all the top brands then...today there are several "cheapo" brands that will shoot circles around many factory barrels (AND many of the top barrels of yesteryear if you bother to look back at the winning groups of the 50-60's) if they are set up correctly and the ammo is bench prepped and tuned to the rifle.

Seems like the first questions out of a mouth is "What barrel are you using?" and "what case/caliber are you using."

Everyone that has done this for a business OR for fun knows there is a whole lot of other things that need to come together to make a good shooter...the barrel brand is only PART of the system. Sticking a Lilja, Hart or Bartlein on a M98, keeping the military stock and expecting to set records is ludicrus, BUT they will shoot much better than an OEM military barrel AND so will a cheapo A&B or Shaw.

If you don't like one particular brand of barrel, DON'T USE THEM. If you have first hand knowledge about a particular brand... state why but leave the onerous personal bias BS out, and leave the second hand krap out also...I've heard hundreds of reasons why different shooters have dropped shots and blaming everything except themselves is usual. I even heard one shooter swear he hit a fly and pointed to a crack in the paper and swore it was the fly's leg.

When a thread spirals down into the muck as they are prone to do on this forum, you're not helping anyone, in any way, but certainly giving any lurkers/peekers and regular posters a view through the window in your "sole" for better or worse.

As to how to make a lead lap...there are quite a few instructions and pictures online and a very good pictured explaination in one of Brownell's early "Gunsmith Kinks" books, plus a video but I can't remember where I saw it...Sorry...they are as simple to make as doing a chamber cast, but from the other end. Plus John Barsness wrote an excellent article on smoothing up the bore using a tight cleaning patchs, in Handloader or Rifle magazines.

Luck

Well Mr. Foobar, you have thoroughly chastised us and gave us all the answers.
Thank you
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:



everything except themselves is usual. I even heard one shooter swear he hit a fly and pointed to a crack in the paper and swore it was the fly's leg.Luck

Usually don't read lengthy posts but I read yours and enjoyed it.

Must tell you this----- Whitnessed a fly get shot and it splattered on the target and there was a leg left behind. My cousin still may have the target. roger

I would not use a Shaw barrel for a custom build. Krieger is by far my favorite barrel maker, followed by Bartlein, and Lilja. Having said that I do have one rifle with an E.R. Shaw barrel. It is an AR 15 chambered in 6.5 Grendel. I bought it as an assembled flat top upper with a float tube and a 2 stage N.M. trigger from J.T. Distributing out of Kentucky. I knew it was coming with an E.R. Shaw barrel and I wasn't happy about it but I didn't want to wait 6 months for a barrel to do a custom build. When I got the upper before I ever shot it I took it to my smith (he is no fan of Shaw barrels} for a look see with the bore scope. He said it was the best looking Shaw barrel he had ever seen.

I took my time breaking the barrel in. After 70 shots I called it good and started load develeopment. I may have got lucky, but this barrel is consistently shooting between the .4's and .6's for 5 shot groups with three different bullet weigths. The barrel cleans easier than any factory tube I have shot.

So yes I am very pleased with it. Would I intentionally put use a Shaw barrel for a build, no I would not, but this one shoots very well. I just don't want to press my luck if I don't have to.

PaPa 260

good? sometimes.
great? not on par with shilen..

There are new surplus Swedish Mauser barrels around for about $60. I would use one of those before I used a cheap comercial barrel.