I think that those of you who criticize D'Arcy Echols rifles because of their cost forget an elementary fact about engineering and cost. If you were to plot performance or result vs. cost on a graph, with cost on the vertical axis and result or performance on the horizontal axis, the resulting graph would not be a straight line. Instead, you would get a rising curve that rises slowly and gently for a considerable time, and then shoots sharply upward as you approach 100% of possible performance.

To express this point in words, when building some product, cost is somewhat proportional to outcome, but then cost rises very sharply for the last percent or fraction of a percent of outcome. So that last 1% of outcome or performance may and usually does cost much more than all the preceding 99%.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Longbob:

I can understand how mounting a hippo would be expensive, but how did you get it to hold still?

What happens in Africa, stays in Africa.

quote:

"edge" of sears breaking off

Damn Hot Core, there's that breaking sear thing again!

I only got a couple of things to say on the subject. I've been blessed to see, fondle and own superb, both in shotguns and rifles. I find such guns rare, the people that make 'em more so. Most folks don't know the difference and it really doesn't seem to take the fun out of the hunt for 'em. I say thumbs up for Mr. Echols and what he builds.

And I say thumbs up to all who have contributed to what is probably the best thread I've read here at AR. Thanks to all! Even to you cranky nay sayers, for without your "inspiration" we wouldn't have had all the input from the Believers.

quote:

LawnDart

Thank you for what you do for our country, and thank you to your sons and daughters for what they do for our country. I am a bit puzzled. I was under the impression that the government suppled equipment to those who serve. At least they supplied me when I served.

Thank you for the kind words. We think it is a privilege to do so. Government issued gear and weapons are like Wal-Mart sold rifles. They are cheap to buy, but are of less than indifferent quality.

What has changed things is the reemergence of special operations forces. Not counting the Rangers, SOF tend to be older, smarter and more experienced than your generic 20 year old Spec 4 rifleman. The SOF also have excellent lines of credit. For the last twenty years or so they have sought out the D'Arcy Echols equivalent craftsmen in the tactical arena. If you are going into combat for a full year it is insane not to obtain the highest quality (and most comfortable) weapons, helmets, ballistic vests and load bearing vests available. Again this is just like getting an Echols rifle. You go into the fray knowing that your gear will not let you down.

As a special forces soldier my boy has a fair amount of lattitude in configuring his battle kit. In fact, that is expected. When I go back in it will be as a gray haired O-5 (LtCol.). I can tell those "know-it-all" Captains and 1st Sgts to go fuck themselves. I'll tell any O-6s that I will be sure they get extra attention in the surgical unit if they happen to get wounded, IF they overlook my personal choices of weapon configuration and apparel.

In the end, for all of us, it is our life, our ass, and our choice as to what gun to sling, and what hat to wear.

lawndart

quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDan:
.... I've been blessed to see, fondle and own superb, both in shotguns and rifles. I find such guns rare, the people that make 'em more so. Most folks don't know the difference ...

Hey DD, Is that a new 4-stroke outboard you stuck in this fine thread to do a bit of stiring with? Sure don't need the old 2-stroke pollution added to it.

Who's masterpieces from "The(Holy Grail of Rifle Craftsmen) List" are you talking about since "Most folks don't know the difference"? Come to think of it, that does seem to have a similar ring to,

quote:

Most of their clients don't either.....

Surely you weren't talking about ANY other GunSmiths since we all now know their rifles couldn't possibly,

quote:

feed anywhere near as well, or to feel and balance even close to as well. My simple answer: "He probably doesn't know how to........."

Pitiful.
---

Do have a serious question for you DD. Why is it some folks find it totally impossible to describe why they like something without having to "attempt to" degrade everything made by anyone else in the business?

If you go back and look at Brian Bingham's original post which started the thread, he was able to convey to anyone who read it how well that aspect of the Echols built rifle is done WITHOUT needing to degrade ANY other GunSmith or "attempt" to talk-down to anyone. From the words he used, you could picture him smiling as he typed it in simply because he is so happy to be gaining such great knowledge.

So, why is it that some of the people who buy those rifles don't have that same class and character?

I think that your opinion of the "class and character" of the purchasers of Echol's rifles is not generally shared by the majority of posters on this thread. I find that those who openly state their actual experience with hunting and firearms and then base their opinions on that are far more credible than those who consistently refuse to do do, I expect that this is also the majority opinion.

You claim to have told me about your hunting experience on two occasions, yet, I do not remember this and I have an excellent memory. Apparently, it is acceptable for you to denigrate others and their hunting experiences/rifle choices, yet, you are too "high and mighty" to bother with posting some actual experiences of your own to substantiate your claims. The last actual Grizzly that I dealt with was about six weeks ago, when was your last personal encounter with one?

As to boasting and being a blowhard, in one of the two threads dealing with Echol's rifles, you claim to have "taken out" four brothers at a school party. Here in B.C. and anywhere else I have worked and lived, including the N.W.T., Alberta and in my visits to Alaska and the Yukon, that kind of BOASTING would get you laughed out of any logger's or miner's or oilpatch "rig pig's' bar in about two seconds..or you would get your ass kicked.

I have the utmost sympathy for your personal situation and realize that you do not wish to argue with me, but, your never-ending attacks upon Allen Day are getting really tiresome; they demonstrate a complete lack of both credibility and the character that you claim to possess. So, maybe you will kindly refresh our memories with your hunting exploits as most here, IMHO, tend to prefer opinions based on realtime activities, not infantile jealousy.

Hot Core, I don't know why you should feel so threatened by these discussions. What sort of a statement have you made about yourself through all this? I call a spade a spade, and if a rifle won't work properly, that surely isn't MY fault, I didn't create the problem, and I surely don't feel guilty for pointing it out if someone asks me my opinion. I don't make a habit of shooting the messenger who brings bad news. Such efforts defy logic.

When I was 20-25 years old, I was very fortunate in that I fell in with some very successful, intelligent, patient hunters and rifle experts of long experience who sort of took me under their wing and explained and demonstarted rifle/hunting-related stuff I might never have learned on my own.

I'm friends with these guys to this day. In fact two of them are going with me to Zimbabwe next season for a safari we pledged to make in an elk camp in NE Oregon more than twenty years ago. I just turned 48 years old on Saturday, so you can see how far back we go, and what the quality of our friendship has been over the years.

But at the time, it was all I could do to own a few decent factory rifles and hunt varmints, mule deer, and elk here in Oregon. Those guys had the wherewithall to do darned near anything they pleased, buy any rifle they wanted, hunt anywhere they wanted. For the life of me, I never felt jealous or felt threatened by any of their success, experience or knowhow. I was just thankful that they thought enough of me to keep me in the loop and patiently teach me some of this stuff and get me going in a solid direction.

It's pretty obvious that if a riflemaker doesn't know how to get a rifle to feed properly he probably doesn't understand that aspect of the game very well. And as Wayne Van Zwoll stated so simply and so well, "If it doesn't feed, it's junk!" Perfect feeding is good, perfect feeding is PROPER, perfect feeding was Paul Mausers' No. 1 priority when he designed the great Model 98 action, and it was his No. 1 priority because it's the ONE aspect of rifle function that can keep you alive when everything else goes in the tank. That blessed icon, "benchrest-accuracy" won't keep you alive, weird cartridges won't keep you alive, etc. But perfect feeding just might.....

AD

Would someone please be kind enough to advise what the current address/telephone number for D'Arcy is and what the price point is for a legend, assuming that you have a donor action.

Thanks in advance.

Bill

Allen: Your "perfect feeding" analogy just about covers it. It's so positively obvious it's brilliant!. It's funny how the "accuracy uber alles"crowd conveniently forgets these two seminal components of HUNTING RIFLES or of course when queried about their experiences, they evade the question. Unfortunately some here adopt the strategy of disparagement if they can't comprehend a well-reasoned argument. jorge

How sad it is that modern factory offerings cannot be routinely relied upon to provide utterly reliable feeding, firing, extraction and ejection cycles.

I don't for one moment expect the level of fit and finish on a Ruger 77 or Model 70 to approach that of an Echols Legend. However, I do expect that the Ruger or the Winchester, be suitably designed and manufactured to feed that cartridge, every time, to ignite that cartridge every time (and send it down range with acceptable accuracy), to extract that cartridge every time, and eject that cartridge every time.

The major sporting arms manufacturers would do better focusing their energies on obtaining the above level of function, rather than designing, producing and marketing unnecessary new cartridges, the design of which only makes it more difficult to achieve the aforementioned functionality. Just my two cents worth.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric308:
The major sporting arms manufacturers would do better focusing their energies on obtaining the above level of function, rather than designing, producing and marketing unnecessary new cartridges, the design of which only makes it more difficult to achieve the aforementioned functionality. Just my two cents worth.

What...and put all the “wildcat loving†gun writers out of work!

D'Arcy Echols & Co.
P.O. Box 421
Millville, Utah 84326

PH. 435-755-6842

Eric308 I hope you are saying that as something that should be and not what exists coming from the manufacturer. I would tell you that in my experience feeding and firing are not a reliable expectation from most manufacturers(off the shelf guns). I have several rifles with feeding issues on one kind or another as we speak. I have had one well tricked out CZ that decided that it would refuse to fire on occasion. Not the best thing just prior to a Buffalo hunt with that gun's name on it. D

Damn you guys, how in the hell am I supposed to get any work done today if you keep posting about these Echols rifles?

Seriously though, with the exception of one or two posters, I've really enjoyed this thread. I would really like to own one of these rifles and plan to make it a reality one day. In the mean time, however, putting my kids through school is my number one priority. Some day, though............

quote:

Do have a serious question for you DD. Why is it some folks find it totally impossible to describe why they like something without having to "attempt to" degrade everything made by anyone else in the business?

I dunno. I'm speechless. I certainly wouldn't degrade a Echols rifle. Having suffered a few malfuntions at embarassing moments does two things for me. First it makes be believe in the Echols philosophy. Secondly, it causes an open slot to appear in my gun rack. First and foremost, nothing will make me get rid of a gun quicker than having it embarass me in public, even if it's wildlife public. People public can be a lot worse. I won't even disparage your choice of cartridges though I have preferences of course...well, except for the 7.62x39 which is a terrible POS.

I think the core issue in the discussion has to do with confidence. Either you have faith in your equipment or you don't. Some that swear by the standard $1700 rifle will swear at it one day, others will have no reason to change their tune. There is probably a direct correlation between how much it is used, and how roughly it is treated. Take me for example, 2.5 years in the zone, 10's of thousands of rounds fired thru M-16's and CAR 15's, and not once did I suffer a malfunction. Your mileage may vary, but I'm still alive and that's all the "proof" I need in that debate.

Oh, and it was a solar powered outboard, 4 strokes are passe.

Lawndart, I had no idea....kudos to you and your boy! Keep the sun on your backside.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
.... The last actual Grizzly that I dealt with was about six weeks ago,

Good for you. Glad to see you made it out OK. Really don't see what that has to do with a thing posted here, but if it makes you happy mentioning you saw a bear, I'm glad for you.

quote:

when was your last personal encounter with one?

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were trying to goad me into an argument. If you are really all that interested, I'd suggest you just go back and read my last post in this thread and it answers that. Actually, it is better answered below.

quote:

..., you claim to have "taken out" four brothers at a school party.

Well, there you go. I tell you the truth and you attack it. In fact that was the same thing you did the last two times I mentioned my hunting experience. Surely you remember your references to "Master" on the Plantations. And you want me to go through all that again.

It really does seem you have some kind of a problem with my posts. So, I'll just handle them a bit differently in the future.

quote:

your never-ending attacks upon Allen Day are getting really tiresome; ...

Actually I totally agree with you. I get tired of "pointing out" that he can't make a post without "attempting" to talk-down to someone or denegrate ALL other GunSmiths not on "The List", and if that is taken as personal, so be it.

quote:

... most here, IMHO, tend to prefer opinions based on realtime activities, not infantile jealousy.

Surely you aren't being a hypocrite with that personal attack on me. Now, are you mad at yourself for "your never-ending attacks upon Allen Day(just substitute old Hot Core there) are getting really tiresome".

Feel free to berate yourself for being so transparent.

quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDan:

quote:

Do have a serious question for you DD. Why is it some folks find it totally impossible to describe why they like something without having to "attempt to" degrade everything made by anyone else in the business?

I dunno. I'm speechless. I certainly wouldn't degrade a Echols rifle.

Don't believe I'd bother doing that either unless it was a rusting blue and termite food model, but I'd do that irregardless of the manufacturer.

quote:

I won't even disparage your choice of cartridges though I have preferences of course...well, except for the 7.62x39 which is a terrible POS.

Taking a great risk right here by mentioning that I've had a bit of experience on the recieving end from these rounds. It would have been fine with me if they had been a lot less accurate.

So now I suppose Kutenay will provide a personal attack on my USMC service.

quote:

... There is probably a direct correlation between how much it is used, and how roughly it is treated.

Again at great risk of getting Kutenay completely wide open in his hypocrite mode, I can think of a time when I had a rifle in my hands and a pistol/revolver on my belt for well over 25 years without missing a day. Not bragging, since we have people on here who relish that sort of thing. It was just what I enjoyed doing.

quote:

Take me for example, 2.5 years in the zone, 10's of thousands of rounds fired thru M-16's and CAR 15's, and not once did I suffer a malfunction. Your mileage may vary, but I'm still alive and that's all the "proof" I need in that debate.

Now we are getting somewhere. I had pretty good luck with them too. Always had 5-10 of them in a Squad. But, I prefered an M14 or a M700 back then.

Now, since you were in the Zone, did you ever get to stop a charging elephant, with the guy in pajamas on top urging it on? I do know what works.

quote:

Oh, and it was a solar powered outboard, 4 strokes are passe.

Is it made by one of the guys on "The List"?
---

Hey JCN, That sure does speak well for the way you brought all of them up. As I scan back over the thread, it is fairly obvious who the non-military free-loaders happen to be. Just another reason why!

Hot Core-
What exactly is a "non-military freeloader" if I might be so bold?

quote:

Originally posted by John S:
Hot Core-
What exactly is a "non-military freeloader" if I might be so bold?

Actually I should have said, "Non-Military Freedom Free-loader".

It is simply a person who has the physical and mental abilility to join the military, but chooses to let other people carry the Flag for them.

Yeah, Hot Core, I clearly remember the exchange in which I refered to you as "Massa"; this was during the time when you gratuitously attacked me and claimed to have much greater hunting experience than I do.....although I had, to that point, never said squat to you. Yet, all you could do is to make stupid remarks about me, Allen, Chuck and others, because you simply do not have any real wilderness and/or big game hunting experience and this is apparent to everyone on this thread. You are jealous and cannot stop spewing your spiteful bullshit although we have been extremely patient with you.

Your experience with the U.S.M.C. has SFA to do with this discussion, you are simply trying to sidestep the essential question concerning HUNTING experience. I find you boastful, lacking in credibility and your attempts to slag me, Allen, etc. are simply ridiculous. BTW, the last war that my country was involved in, MY freedom was bought by the blood of three of the five men in my family who volunteered for active service overseas in 1939. So, your comments, as always, are just as hollow as your foolish rants about AD, etc.

I actually feel sory for you as you seem to miss the entire point of what others try to say to you, but, WTF, it's your problem and one you seem to have with quite a number of people here.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
Yeah, Hot Core, I clearly remember the exchange in which I refered to you as "Massa"; this was during the time when you gratuitously attacked me and claimed to have much greater hunting experience than I do.....although I had, to that point, never said squat to you.

I see you've gone into the selective memory mode.

quote:

Yet, all you could do is to make stupid remarks about me, Allen, Chuck and others, because you simply do not have any real wilderness and/or big game hunting experience

Your hypocrite side is coming out again it seems. I do need to correct you about what you refer to as "stupid remarks", which you must have mistaken as the direct quotes from ad.

And if you look back, I've said nothing to chuck at all in this thread even though he chose to attack me as he usually does.

Likewise with you. I tried to avoid any conflict with you, but you seem insistant on trying to get me to say something mean spirited to you. I'm just not interested in doing that. It seems you have once again "confused" who has been doing the "trash talking" which all began with ad's post.

quote:

and this is apparent to everyone on this thread. You are jealous and cannot stop spewing your spiteful bullshit although we have been extremely patient with you.

I see you have returned to your strength - vulgarity.

quote:

Your experience with the U.S.M.C. has SFA to do with this discussion, you are simply trying to sidestep the essential question concerning HUNTING experience.

Oh yes, back to you seeing a bear. Do you want me to say I'm "impressed" because you saw a bear? I see animals every day and even touch a few.

quote:

I find you boastful, lacking in credibility and your attempts to slag me, Allen, etc. are simply ridiculous.

Boastful? And you wanted me to list my vast hunting experience. Having seen you call me a lier is old hat now. Interesting how you do this each and every time. And then you demand I tell you anything more about me.

By the way, the reason I don't ask about your hunting experience is two fold, 1. I'm not interested. 2. All you do is brag about either having seen a bear or being able to "seer" beer cans. I'm sure some enjoy reading it, but it just isn't all that impressive to me. No offense intended, cause I wear out easy when subjected to such stuff.

quote:

I actually feel sory for you as you seem to miss the entire point of what others try to say to you, but, WTF, it's your problem and one you seem to have with quite a number of people here.

Don't really need a sermon, but if it makes you feel BIGGER in your own eyes, have at it.
---

Woops, totally forgot:

quote:

BTW, the last war that my country was involved in, MY freedom was bought by the blood of three of the five men in my family who volunteered for active service overseas in 1939.

Since you didn't mention being in the military yourself(and I feel sure you would have if you had been in), I'm just going out on a limb and guess you personally chose to let everyone else carry the Freedom load for you. Without being at all negative, it does fit the mental image I have of you.
---

I guess this is as good a time as any to "quit" responding directly to you. For some reason you want to attack me due to posts I've made which had nothing to do with you. And when I do respond to your requests you choose to brandish me a Lier or Boaster without knowing me at all. Speaks volumes for you.

this is too good a thread to be lost to petty bickering, back to guns please..ps.. my m16 jammed a lot but it was probably the ammo not the gun?????????

quote:

Now, since you were in the Zone, did you ever get to stop a charging elephant,

Well, actually yes. It was charging the other way though, and a single 5.56 tracer to the temple dropped it stone dead. A collaboration that cost me a case of beer BTW. No ele jockey on that one, I suppose the Ele had 'chucked'(pun intended) him previously.

I am pleased to announce that I found the accuracy of the 7.62x39 adequate by my standards whilst in S.E.A. Those boys couldn't hardly hit a barn wall from the interior from what I saw. The standard issue AK-47 in those days was obviously not up to D'Arcy's standards...maybe one could consider that I was the dangerous game in one sense, and they were ill equipped.

the Sociopath has struck again... not enough positive comments about the M700 no doubt...

Hot Core, I have never been in any military force, nor have I claimed to be. The reason for this is that I have a steel plate in my right femur, courtesy of a drunk driver when I was 14 and the Canadian Armed Forces would not accept a person with such a "disability"; my right leg is also 1.5" shorter than my left and this also does not meet their physical standards. So, even you can see that this is something I could not have done, even if my country was a participant in the Vietnam "experience".

So, once again, you are in error, but, that is hardly a surprise to those of us who have watched you boast about your expensive sports car, a Corvette, your extensive firearms experience, "taking out" four brothers at once and being familiar with highend "beanfield" gunsmiths, although you do not, by your own admission, actually own any of their rifles. You now tell us that you "know" what works for "charging Elephants", so, please, enlighten us with your nonpariel wisdom concerning perhaps the most dangerous game of all.

BTW, I think that you suffer from a personality disorder of the type which motivates the person involved to deliberately seek out attention of a negative and even admonitory type in order to deal with certain psychological stressors; maybe this is a result of your "service" or, maybe you are just a garden variety sniveler who has never, will never and cannot deal with the successful accomplishments of others. I suspect the latter and think that you should seek professional assistance with your obvious problem.

There I was at 20,000 feet, in a sharpe dive trying to lose those Jap zeros on my tail...oh, wait a minute...I forgot, that wasn’t me, that was John Wayne!

Hot Core, I guess we're supposed to preclude or ammend all posts about rifles so that they don't include discussions about anything that exceeds your personal budget, and don't include anything that superceeds your personal experience or understanding. Then we'll be OK, right? Oh, and by all means, we're not to call junk for what it is, and no one is to state that a certain rifle was poorly built or caused problems. Who knows, such discussions just MIGHT save someone some grief, anguish, money, and a stay in the hospital, and we wouldn't want that, would we? That kind of discussion might just prove to be a blow to your self-esteem, and would, in the final analysis, prove to be the NUMER ONE objective of this new era of censorship -- don't mess with good ol' boy Hot Core's self-esteem.

Isn't that the real truth when you get right down to it? If it wasn't, you wouldn't feel the need to continually put down wood stocked rifles, silence those with greater experience or understanding on certain subjects than you yourself possess, or to continually make references to your tough-guy exploits, etc.

I guess we're not to discuss anything except rifles for punching paper and assassinating small, SC-size whitetails out of tower stands overlooking soybean fields. Right? Now THAT ought to be illuminating!!!!!!!!!

AD

Hey Allen!

A belated Happy Birthday to you!

Cheers!

George

WOW:

Thanks to allen, kute, hotcore, and a few others, this fine thread sure has gone to a shit-slinging contest.

Way to go guys.

Now about those fine rifles....

George, thank you very much!

Jameister, I hear what your saying, and you're right.

I like to write about this sort of subject because I've been a student of custom rifles since I was twenty years old, and I'd like to save someone some of the headaches and frustrations that I've had to endure myself. I haven't seen everything, but I've seen enough to know that you have to be very careful who you hire to build a rifle, and you have to be very careful about what you decide to put into it.

Accuracy isn't enough, and cosmetics isn't enough. If you're a hunter, you want a COMPLETE rifle, and quite honestly, I think that any practitioner who sends out a rifle that isn't broken-in and proven 100% is a disgrace. Anyone who sends out a rifle with the wrong-size magazine box for the cartridge the rifle is chambered for is a double-disgrace.

Yet one custom stockmaker, who completed a very pretty 270 Win. for me 21 years ago got very snotty when I asked him over the phone how it shot. His reply: "How should I know? That's YOUR job!" And here I was 26 years old, and I'd saved hard to that rifle, and had just handed this s$#@!^&*$*h $2500 for his work, and that's the best reply he could hand back?? I have no use for that drugstore cowboy to this day......

Guys ask what's the big deal about the Echols magazine system. We'll it's a very, very, very big deal in the final analysis, especially for a rifle that might be used against dangerous game. Paul Mauser pioneered this technology back with the great Model 98 action. Magazine boxes must be profiled for the correct stack-angle for a given cartridge, or else magazine capacity will be reduced, and feeding won't be 100%. Magazines also get battered by the bullet noses from recoil with heavy cartridges, and this not only causes battering, but eventually split magazine boxes and split stocks that can ruin feeding and the whole rifle. Jeff Cooper discussed this aspect of his fine Hoenig 460 G&A at length, and it's not at all unusual for Weatherby Mark Vs in 378, 460, and 416 Wby. to develop splits in the magazine boxes, and other factory rifles in heavy calibers can suffer in the same way.

Echols crafts his boxes and followers from thick, heat-treated stainless steel, and they are designed for the cartridge the rifle is to be chambered for. They hold four-down (even in 458 Lott), yet they're no deeper than a standard magazine box, so the sometimes amenic magazine spring tension certain deep-box rifles exhibit is eliminated entirely. No batrtering from recoil, even, in with full-power 500 gr. solid 458 Lott loads, no eventual feeding problems, no split magazines, no split stocks. This feature is worth the price of admission all by itself.

AD

Allen: I too stand guilty as charged for a few turds I have thrown on these boreds.

Reminded of a saying from my old mining days: shot at and missed, shit at and hit.

Now lets get back to some comparisons: an echols rifle and a jarret, or a Penrod: in 300 or 375, how do they compare for quality?

thanks

Mark Penrod can do just about anything in the way of making a fine rifle, but not everything. He doesn't make a wood-stocked rifle, but he can turn out a first-class 'glass-stocked rifle. He can get a proper-size magazine box and triggerguard assembly from Ted Blackburn, install a McMillan stock, perfectly install any barrel you'd like to use, create and install first-quality open sights of any descrption, get the feeding right, create custom scope bases from scratch for detachable rings such as Talley's, etc.

But he doesn't make fixed scopemounts like D'Arcy's; Blackburn's magazine box isn't as good as D'Arcy's (it's not heat-treated stainless steel); Blackburn's triggerguard assembly isn't as good as Tom's; the action doesn't get re-pinned and re-worked to the degree D'Arcy's are, plus Mark won't test for accuracy at all or break-in the barrel. If, by chance, there's a problem with accuracy or something else, you'll have to send it back to him. Still, Mark makes a great rifle, especially for the money, and he's a wonderful, honest, superb gentleman to work with.

I'll offer no comments about Jarrett's rifle, other than to state the fact that what he sends out will be broken-in, range-tested, and highly-accurate. He guarantees your satisfaction.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Hot Core, I guess we're supposed to preclude or ammend all posts about rifles so that they don't include discussions about anything that exceeds your personal budget, and don't include anything that superceeds your personal experience or understanding. Then we'll be OK, right? Oh, and by all means, we're not to call junk for what it is, and no one is to state that a certain rifle was poorly built or caused problems. Who knows, such discussions just MIGHT save someone some grief, anguish, money, and a stay in the hospital, and we wouldn't want that, would we? That kind of discussion might just prove to be a blow to your self-esteem, and would, in the final analysis, prove to be the NUMER ONE objective of this new era of censorship -- don't mess with good ol' boy Hot Core's self-esteem.

Isn't that the real truth when you get right down to it?

Actually, (since ad is totally WRONG AGAIN)I believe a person should post whatever they want to post. Say it any way they want to say it.

Now, at the same time, an arrogant loud-mouthed blow-hard shouldn't be surprised when someone who knows better calls him on it. I can see how that tends to upset some folks.

quote:

...you wouldn't feel the need to continually put down wood stocked rifles,

Yes indeed, totally dislike termite food stocks and rusting blue for my needs. If that creates a problem for anyone - tough.

quote:

... silence those with greater experience or understanding on certain subjects than you yourself possess,

I've not asked anyone to quit posting, never have - never will. I really enjoyed Brian's initial post and I would agree he knows more about an Echols rifle than I do. In fact, I do hope he continues to post about them as he seems to be the only one on this Board who can describe them extremely well without trashing the other GunSmiths and their customers.

As usual, I do reserve the right to point out an arrogant loud-mouth blow-hard when I see one though. And if that is a problem for ad- tough again.

quote:

...or to continually make references to your tough-guy exploits, etc.

I agree that was a mistake. I never should have mentioned any of my background to kutee. All he has to offer is vulgarity and beer can seering, combined with calling people Liers who he doesn't know. Speaks volumes for his class and character.

quote:

I guess we're not to discuss anything except rifles for punching paper and assassinating small, SC-size whitetails out of tower stands overlooking soybean fields. Right?

Like I said before, I believe people should post whatever they want to post.

And why would ad think I know anything at all about SC Whitetails? He "claims" I've never mentioned any of my hunting experience to him. Do I detect a "Forked Tongue"?

quote:

Originally posted by Jameister:
...Thanks to ...hotcore, ...this fine thread sure has gone to a shit-slinging contest. Way to go ...

Hey Jamister, I modified your post slightly to more accurately reflect what got it started - me.

I do find it extremely interesting that not a single one of the GunSmiths on the board don't take the arrogant loud-mouthed blow-hard to task for saying they only make junk and their customers are too stupid to recognize it. Perhaps their spines are a bit soft or feel they can't compete well in the verbal trash. Just doesn't make good sense to me that they would allow themselves to be trashed without responding.

Also interesting that ad would say all those things about Bill Leeper in his initial post since he is not on "The List" and thus got the trashing by default. And chuck stuck up for ad after he did it.

I always thought Bill Leeper turned out some fine rifles, or the ones I saw pictures of looked real pretty for rusting blue and termite food. And I've heard they shoot right well, but of course according to ad, accuracy really isn't all that important.
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And I'm also surprised that the rest of you continue to allow such totally stupid posts to go un-challenged.

Here Brian gets an excellent thread started describing in detail the things that make an Echols rifle worth what he asks for it. Then as ad goes about his never ceasing quest to trash all other GunSmiths, which you all use, you sit back and let him do it.

Very disappointed in the lack of backbone.

Jameister, I don't think that you are being entirely fair in your accessment of the unfortunate situation that has developed on this and other threads concerning Echol's rifles, Allen and myself. It is pretty obvious to me that Hot Core starts these donnybrooks and even when I attempt to reconcile with him, he continues to do his utmost to badmouth me, AD and Chuck Nelson, among others. He is, IMO, a severely disturbed individual who is solely responsible for the problems on this thread as he has been on divers others, I expect that his anti-social behaviour will continue, regardless of what you, AD, CN or I say.....the guy is simply nuts and should be under psychiatric care.

HC, do yourself a favour, go see your doctor and request a "workup" by a good Clinical Psychologist....and don't forget to tell us about ...charging Elephants....

quote:

And I'm also surprised that the rest of you continue to allow such totally stupid posts to go un-challenged.

Speaking for myself, but suspecting that it is felt more widespread...we don't feel the need, and can think for ourselves. We don't need someone to start an argument for our sake. If you want to do so for your sake, fine, but don't do it for me! I just don't care that much, and I certainly don't need your help!

quote:

Very disappointed in the lack of backbone.

Your's sure got hopped upon right fast. No lack of backbone there. Gee, wonder why...

Give it a rest guys. You've made your point ad nauseum. If you really must argue, go start a thread in the ignorance crater and hash it out for yourselves, without dragging down someone else's good thread.

I still don't buy the fact that regular guns that are tested and checked out are not good for hunting, target shooting, war or self defense.

Nor has anyone offered any facts as to the reliablility of rifles by the top maker vrs other guns.

I still see this as some saying that only my special blessed gun is better than yours.

On some other topic one might have a point but guns have been working just fine for a long time.

Now if one wants to discuss passing another car with the family sedan perhaps we should all drive a Merc. CLK. Now that argument would be easier to make.

In summary its absurd to even try to make the point that only one person can make a gun right.

Brad did make a good post however. If you want a Legend rifle go ahead. It's good that they are available.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
Are Mr. Echol's rifle's worth the money? Yes.

Is that level of craftsmanship and perfectionism needed to have a reliable hunting rifle? No.

Bottom line... when you buy an Echol's rifle you're buying a master craftsman's uncompromising vision of what a rifle should be. That vision requires many more hours of labor than an "average custom" rifle and, while I don't believe much of it is necessary, it is ultimately for those that cannot live without every stone perfectly turned over, every possible imperfection corrected and every pitfall anticipated and overcome. An Echols comes down to a multitude of details agonized over by a highly skilled and focused perfectionist.

Here is Brad's post again. It's worth reading again.

I think that it is largely a question of degree here and even some relatively famous factory rifles can go south in very harsh circumstances where someting built by a top smith may be less likely to do that. The point concerning the Echol's magazine box and the splitting of certain factory ones is an example of what I mean. I have used Browning Safari Grade rifles built on FN actions as working guns in the B.C. bush and they were/are damned fine tools, as AD has pointed out frequently, BUT, the hokey potmetal Bm should be replaced as they can, have and may well split, especially in cold weather.

I also found that the stock design exacerbated recoil and I had a .375 H&H in this that had wood you would go whacko over and it shot like a target rifle, an honest .5 moa with 300 STs in factory stuff, BUT, it kicked the crap out of me, so, I sold it and continued with my P-64s in .375. My point is simply that every rifle used for BIG game hunting needs work and one may well be better off buying a purpose-built custom rifle from Penrod, Echols, Simillion or whomever you consider best in the first place.

Like you, I actually prefer to hunt with a drilling much of the time, but, mine required a fair bit of fine-tuning to the firing pins and triggers before it functioned as it is designed to.....and most of the post '60s ones I have seen are like this, these cost more than an Echols Legend. So, if you backpack meat in Grizzly country, as many of us do, the cost of a properly tuned factory rifle may actually both exceed an Echols and the gun is still not as efficient in this situation, which is all I have been saying.

Pride in ownership is a good thing. If I ever own a Legend I will be proud of it. Allen Day certainly is proud of his. I sure don't blame him. I own several guns by smiths that are well known but maybe not to members here. That does not make them any more wonderful rifles than anyone else's rifle. SOme of them I am really proud of. When I carry them I just love it. If you buy a Legend you should rightly love carrying and hunting with it. Can you love carrying an old army surplus rifle? Maybe so. If so, more power to you. Each of us has our own definition of "The Perfect Rifle for ME". Nice that I don't have to live with your choices nor you with mine. Enjoy what you have. But somewhere along the way you should have what you want sometimes too.